Bosma Murder Trial 04.12.16 - Day 33

[Abitcountry]

IMO, there's a difference between how things went down to us in the general public in May of 2013, what occurred behind the scenes, and what we know now only if following trial details. I'm tempted to think the witnesses knew about as much as I did at the time about this particular case. Even if IT had been questioned and LE knew who had the tattoo by the 7th, none of us knew it, so I don't think it's fair to assume AM and MH did. That is, if they are telling the truth. I think everything went very expeditiously in finding the perps and it's not worth the energy to read more into their choice of action at the time. JMO

And as far as Andrew telling the truth....we'll soon find out.

Tomorrow it's likely a dive in the deep end with ......:bowdown: DUNGEY

 

[Abitcountry]

Goodnight all fftobed:....see you back here in the morning starting with legal arguments...lol.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Although perhaps not being totally honest or forthcoming, I'm not so sure either MH or AM are actually lying in their testimony as to the way things happened from their viewpoint. I think it's more likely that what we are seeing are some of the lies that MH referred to that caused the two to no longer be friends. It appears to me that AM was not very honest with MH about getting the items to MS. MH returned from vacation (IIRC), got the toolbox dumped on him with no explanation, then suddenly had AM desperately contacting him to take it to MS. Instead of telling him the truth, AM told him that he didn't know what was in the backpack, or that it was MS who had asked for both the backpack and the tool box to be brought to him. Instead, he said that DM had given the backpack to him and, when MH didn't want to take the tool box to MS, he said DM would have wanted the items to go to MS. Why didn't AM just take it himself? Why did they both have to take an item down the stairwell? Was that just part of their pact - that they would both get rid of the items quickly and then they could both just walk away from it? But then MH found out that there were lies told.

Why would MS care about the bag of drugs when he knew they could be looking at murder charges? Maybe simply because they were worth a lot of money to him and he'd prefer that LE not find them and confiscate them, or maybe it was the excuse to get the tool box as well without mentioning a gun. Why would he want the tool box with the gun in it? Because he wants control of it to ensure it isn't found, because he knows it can be traced back to him.

Why did MS look sick after the test drive with IT? Was it because IT put such a scare into him? Did he scare him enough to want to take a gun with him on the next test drive?

Regarding the *advertiser censored****** and the nice guy........ What if it was just supposed to be a test drive and the decision was still to be made about which truck would be stolen, depending on how it went with the nice guy? What if the actual "plan" was to check out both trucks and go back later for the actual theft? If murder wasn't supposed to be part of it, but someone got scared and panicked and used that gun?

Just some thoughts and all JMO.

 

[Kamille]

What happened to the 2 holsters that DM purchased from Ebay? Did they disappear at the time of WM's death? Were there two guns originally and one was used and left on the scene of WM's "suicide"? There had to have been a gun left at the scene for the police to have ruled that a suicide? The pictures of the Walther PPK were on DM's computer in Feb 2012, however MWJ and the others were charged with selling a gun(s) to DM in June/July? I believe the charge is that this gun was used to kill WM? So was this a second gun? Was the Walther PPK considered "MS's" gun at this point? Or was it always MS's gun? Which one was used on LB? The one picture of MS with a gun is from Aug 2012 when he was living with DM.

Does LE have the second gun? Or how many guns did DM/MS have/buy?

So who had the gun(s) on the evening of May 6th?

:waitasec:

MOO

 

[Arnie M]

From day 5

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 17s17 seconds ago
Iaccio has been sworn in as an expert in cell communications. He got a call from police on May 7 after #TimBosma vanished. #HamOnt #Bosma

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 30s30 seconds ago
There were 2 production orders by HPS in this case for 2 numbers--one was the Lucas Bate phone (the phone that called #Bosma on May 6)

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Also a phone registered to Brendan Daily. Spelling is unclear.

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 1m1 minute ago
289 number belonged to a "Brendan Daly." #MillardSmich

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 2m2 minutes ago
Iaccio says in the particular case, @HamiltonPolice made 2 production orders. 1 for "Bate" records & 1 for records of a 289
number. #Millard

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 56s56 seconds ago
May 7 he got call at home at 2 am from @HamiltonPolice asking for help for a "humanitarian" request.

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 1m1 minute ago
Iaccio received emergency call for request late at night while at home in bed. Logged on to network from home. #MillardSmich

Adam Carter
Feb 8 2016 2:45 PM
The court is seeing entry records as to when police contacted Iaccio looking for information.

Adam Carter
Feb 8 2016 2:42 PM
Police contacted Iaccio looking for information on a particular number on May 7, after Bosma disappeared. They were claiming there was an "imminent threat to life" at the time.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 2m2 minutes ago
Iaccio got a call at 2am on May 7, 2013, from #HamOnt police wanting info on the phone that called #TimBosma for test drive

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 2m2 minutes ago
Humanitarian request. As we learned last week, an emergency situation. Police can get info without court ordered a life is in danger. #Bosma

I am going to call this a "curiosity" I have had from early in the trial

It is in regard to the Brendan Daly production order (his phone)

--- 2 AM May 7th was only 4 hours after Bosma failed to return home
--- 2 AM May 7th was when Hamilton police sourced (laccio) for the phone numbers that called the Bosma phone
--- One was the Lucas Bate "burner" phone (of course)
--- But the other was Brendan Daly's 289 number
--- Does that mean the Brendan phone also called the Bosma phone
--- Or did the burner phone call the Brendan phone at one time
--- I always wondered how police made that connection so early
--- Did MS use the Lucas Bate phone to call Brendan at some earlier time
--- Could that be one of the *advertiser censored**ups MS said he made

ps: I allow the possibility that the Brendan phone record search happened many days later but the way it was tweeted makes it look like it was done late on the evening TB went missing

 

[Arnie M]

What happened to the 2 holsters that DM purchased from Ebay? Did they disappear at the time of WM's death? Were there two guns originally and one was used and left on the scene of WM's "suicide"? There had to have been a gun left at the scene for the police to have ruled that a suicide? The pictures of the Walther PPK were on DM's computer in Feb 2012, however MWJ and the others were charged with selling a gun(s) to DM in June/July? I believe the charge is that this gun was used to kill WM? So was this a second gun? Was the Walther PPK considered "MS's" gun at this point? Or was it always MS's gun? Which one was used on LB? The one picture of MS with a gun is from Aug 2012 when he was living with DM.

Does LE have the second gun? Or how many guns did DM/MS have/buy?

So who had the gun(s) on the evening of May 6th?

:waitasec:

MOO

Good point about the ebay holster ..... I often wonder how thoroughly police checked everything in DM's house ... what a chore considering all the clutter

But here is what I really want to mention .... no doubt DM & MS had tried the guns out at one time or done some target practice ..... and what better place than the farm ..... I would have looked for .380 brass casings in remote areas of the farm that would be a good spot for target practice ..... wonder if any of the farm neighbors ever heard gunshots other than hunting season.

 

[swedie]

you missed this part..he wanted the toolbox too.

Apr 12 2016 4:22 PM"I put them into a blue Under Armour backback and put them in my car and drove around the street," Michalski says about the drugs. Smich contacted him again, he said: "He wanted me to meet up with Hagerman, and he wanted whatever I had and Hagerman had brought to him the next day."

Apr 12 2016 4:32 PMIn one of those texts, Michalski says "it's about the thing someone gave you." He says that he knew through Smich that Hagerman had a toolbox that Millard had given him.

Apr 12 2016 4:34 PMMichalski says the purpose of meeting Hagerman was to bring the toolbox and the backpack with the drugs to Smich.

Thanks for that Gibson, I did miss that. So...was MS not expecting a toolbox with a gun or two in it and when he found the gun it bothered him to the point of panicking and wanting to get rid of it? Maybe MS was expecting just drugs in the toolbox? Or perhaps he did know the gun was inside and figured he could unload it onto someone else for a few bucks....of course with the hope of raising money for a defense lawyer. MOO.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

AM said he'd been looking on Kijiji for those trucks with DM back in December 2012. I wonder whether they'd tried to steal one and it didn't work? There's lots of anti-theft elements built in.

Well, he did put a whole 5 days into searching for a diesel..took him a year though, for those 5 days! Ugh, can't remember who said that. I thought it was LW2?

Anyhow, those whole 5 days could very well be attempted thefts. That's probably how they figured out they need the key for those trucks. But stupid, they had a winch and a trailer. Much easier then abduction and murder! maybe DM's "mechanic" wasn't really that good lol...he seems to know how to change an igntion, why not on this truck? It's a lot more work but doable...still better the murder!
JMO

 

[CJPRINCESS]

This whole calling anyone is silly. He'd make his lawyer call and then continue his 38 hr interigation. Not sure when he had time to call MS or AM? Not like he met the LE in a local coffee shop and I'm sure his cell would have been out of his possession.

They are all half truth dipsh**ts and can't keep their lies straight! And fumble the truth when they try to tell that! Or "I don't know"

 

[swedie]

I don't think MH would be facing charges if he fessed up but his dad might send him off to live under the Gardener if he finds out his son hid guns in his house.

If MH or AM had fessed up to LE he knew there were guns in the toolbox, he had gotten rid of that evidence knowing DM had been arrested for stealing someone's truck, most certainly he could have been charged by LE. Getting rid of evidence, tampering with evidence, helping to escape, accessory after the fact, aiding and abetting? IMO this is why these guys have lied from day one and continue to lie. They are covering their own hineys. That's their stories and they are sticking to it....they had no idea there were guns in that toolbox...sorry but I refuse to buy it.

To tell the truth and admit they knew DM had stole TB's truck, that puts them in legal hot water and susceptible to also face criminal charges very similar to CN....as I've said before. I don't believe for one second either that they weren't curious enough to pick the lock and peek inside (if they didn't have a key). I think these guys were smarter then some give them credit for. Criminal wise and knowing their rights and what charges they could faced if they were ever caught while helping DM on any of his heists. Interesting how they didn't want to be right in on the action, but just on the outskirts as watchdogs, making their get away much easier if LE came upon them. I guess MS was the only one who was always right in on the action. No they're trying to portray themselves as "not as bad" as MS. I wonder if DM carried his gun along on these heists just in case "the suits" showed up? MOO.

 

[deugirtni]

About the toolbox... MH said it weighed between 4 and 5 lbs. I'm taking a leap to guess that the toolbox with small lock might weigh 1 lb? Does anyone know? Does anyone have one they could check the weight on? So what would weigh the additional 3-4lbs? If weed, how much physical space would 1lb of weed take up? How many pounds of hooch would that toolbox accommodate inside? Has there been any indication from anywhere that MS was an addict aside from being a 'pothead'? (I haven't seen anything?)

MH testified that it seemed like whatever was in the box had been wrapped in 'clothing' and was not moving. That seems like a silly thing to say if it was pot. Who would wrap weed in cloth? Nobody. You wouldn't need to. Wouldn't the way the weight distribution felt in the toolbox even feel different for weed than it would for a gun wrapped in cloth, even though one can't see it?

Someone earlier mentioned that it kind of changes things because we now know (if AM is telling the truth) that AM himself gathered up the drugs that were stored at 5 Maplegate, and NOT DM. So if DM had been going to drop off a bunch of drugs to MH in the middle of the night in a locked toolbox, why not take ALL of his drugs, and not just some of them, leaving the rest for AM to deal with. Doesn't.make.sense.

Also, it sounds like, (again, if AM is telling the truth), MS knew that there was something other than drugs in the toolbox, since he had reportedly asked AM to gather the drugs at Maplegate together and drop them off to him. He supposedly already knew there was a toolbox which DM had given MH, and now he was asking AM to gather up the drugs and deliver both things to him the next day.

I think TD was absolutely correct in badgering MH to say he was lying and that he knew very well what was in the box, and now AM's testimony verifies that even more.

Below are the weights of a PPK Walther 380 gun, so 1.38lb for 1 gun. If the weight of the box including contents is estimated by MH to be 4-5lbs, and we estimate that the box with lock weighs approx 1lb, the 'cloth' weighs 1lb, that leaves 2-3lbs for gun(s), which weigh 2.75lbs for 2 guns. So 1lb (toolbox+lock) + 1lb (cloth wrapping gun(s)) + 2.75lbs (2guns) = 4.75lbs. Hmmm.

Model (I'm not sure which model?)

PPK .380 Black = 22.1 oz

PPK .380 Stainless = 22.1 oz

PPK/S .380 Black = 23.6 oz

PPK/S .380 Stainless = 23.6 oz

http://www.waltherarms.com/handguns/ppk/ppk-ppks/


AC's blog dated April 7:

• 12:13 PM - Hagerman says the toolbox was locked, about 4 or 5 pounds, and it didn't seem like anything was moving around in it.

• 12:13 PM - "The way everything was contained ... it seems like it was wrapped with clothing," Hagerman says.

 

[deugirtni]

How did MS discover that DM had been arrested on May 10th?

How did MS know that DM had given a toolbox to MH (at 4am on the day DM was later arrested) which was supposedly supposed to be given to MS?

 

[deugirtni]

I have a sneaky feeling that AM is going to be crucified on the stand when TD crosses him. I am working on a timeline thing, and it's not working out so far.. will post when I have it.

 

[swedie]

I agree that the evidence so far strongly suggests that to be true, but what is missing for me still is precisely what role MS played in this crime, IMO. If someone else other than MS was in the hangar video, and that can be proved, then there remains questions, IMO. Just because MS was with DM on the early morning (7 am or so) of May 7th does not prove to me he was at the hangar all night with DM. As I said in the last thread, I do see that it's possible that the person in the hangar with DM could be someone other than MS, IMO. I hope TD puts a gait expert on the stand to compare MS's walk with the person on the video.

I know I could be wrong, but I want to be more sure. Hopefully as more testimony is revealed I can leave my alien planet and be welcomed back on Earth to live peacefully among friends. lol

All MOO.

You may want to consider SS did identify DM, MS and Pedo in the video taken from the hangar. Remember, witness testimony is considered evidence. HTH and MOO.

Schlatman identified Millard and Smich in a security video from the Millardair hangar taken hours after Bosma disappeared from his home. After being identified, Millard waved at his former employee.

The video shows a tall man and a shorter man walking through the hangar at 1:42 a.m. on May 7, 2013. A dog follows them. The dog was Pedo, who Millard had taken from the streets of Mexico, court heard.

http://www.orangeville.com/news-story/6399212-accused-killer-felt-badly-for-victim-family/

 

[swedie]

In fairness for MH's belief of what was in the toolbox, I think we may have to think that perhaps DM was a big time supplier- a kilo of this, a good chunk of that, and a nice supply of ecstasy, oxy's and crack. When I think of a tool box, I think of the kind that has those trays that keep things organized. According to MH's testimony, the tool box was 4-5 lbs and nothing seemed to be moving around in it. Maybe someone can figure out how much a tool box like that would weigh and how much a gun or two would weigh.

IMO, it could have had a few things in it- gun(s) included. Also, from MH's testimony, DM kept his drug box locked. I'm speculating that DM had drugs at Maple Gate and the Hangar. If the toolbox wasn't at Maple Gate, IMO, he was dealing out of the hangar as well and when he started to feel the heat, everything had to be cleared out of the hangar- the truck, his "pharmacy-box" and the gun(s) He did that on Thursday night in prep for the possibility of LE showing up at the hangar after learning AJ called CS. Clearing the drugs out of Maple Gate was instigated by a phone call from someone after DM was arrested- someone who knew Maple Gate was going to be searched. MOO

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont Apr 7
Toolbox was always at Maplegate parties. "He'd keep it locked." Had drugs in it. Hagerman assumed it still had drugs in it.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Apr 7
Hagerman says the toolbox was locked, about 4 or 5 pounds, and it didn't seem like anything was moving around in it. #TimBosma #Bosma

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Apr 7
Hagerman says he "never once" tried to see what was inside. Said it was 4 or 5 pounds. #TimBosma #Bosma

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Apr 7
Fraser asks what would have been in the toolbox previously. "Narcotics, drugs that were brought out at parties," Hagerman says. #TimBosma

Well, if you throw in a box or two of ammo, a couple illegal hand guns, perhaps a few bogus cell phones, you might be getting up there in weight. What I find quite curious is, none of this stuff has physically made it into evidence. Where did it all go? Someone disposed of it. The only thing we know about thus far is that MS buried a gun in the forest.

Something else that just doesn't make sense IMO, why would DM would leave a bunch of drugs at the Maplegate house (AM gathered up and put in the backpack) but yet deliver a toolbox full of drugs to MH? IMO I believe there where two "2" guns in that toolbox along with other items I mentioned above. If you look at images of that toolbox, it has an accommodation for a small lock...a very small lock which would be nothing for these goons to pick or cut off or snip the plastic surrounding it (IF DM didn't give MH the key). Curiosity would have gotten the best of them if they didn't know for certain what was in that toolbox. AM went to MH house so they could do just that...remove the lock, my speculation of course. If this was the case, I highly doubt we will get the truth from AM if asked. He is not going to put himself in that position of knowing what was in that toolbox and him and MH disposed of incriminating evidence. ALL MOO.

 

[swedie]

What happened to the 2 holsters that DM purchased from Ebay? Did they disappear at the time of WM's death? Were there two guns originally and one was used and left on the scene of WM's "suicide"? There had to have been a gun left at the scene for the police to have ruled that a suicide? The pictures of the Walther PPK were on DM's computer in Feb 2012, however MWJ and the others were charged with selling a gun(s) to DM in June/July? I believe the charge is that this gun was used to kill WM? So was this a second gun? Was the Walther PPK considered "MS's" gun at this point? Or was it always MS's gun? Which one was used on LB? The one picture of MS with a gun is from Aug 2012 when he was living with DM.

Does LE have the second gun? Or how many guns did DM/MS have/buy?

So who had the gun(s) on the evening of May 6th?

:waitasec:

MOO

Perhaps the holster(s) also nicely fit in that toolbox along with the guns, ammo and bogus cellphones. Yeah, that could probably bring the weight up to about four or five pounds. Everything fit snug as a bug so nothing would move around kwim. MOO.

 

[Just4TB]

As I said in the last thread, I do see that it's possible that the person in the hangar with DM could be someone other than MS, IMO.

RSBM True, anything is possible. But not at all probable. This case is built on "totality of evidence" against the accused vs a single smoking gun. So probabilities are important.
By way of analogy, it is possible you are from another planet, but highly improbable. When you decide it's time to come home, say hello k?

 

[matou]

Tim Bosma Murder Trial: The revelations of Andrew Michalski | EXHIBIT # 129 and #130

[video=youtube;tRxCc6vXz3M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRxCc6vXz3M&list=UUnsj4TU7mOQ-4l2HOaRekgA&index=1[/video]

 

[chaines]

likely answered a few times already ...but i think the point of this comment is not the foul language bit- it is the question of how at THAT point did he form and opinion of nice guy vs. ** guy

due to the cost of insurance I decided to sell 2 of my motorcycles over the fall and winter. I used Kijiji. I can tell you that after a couple of emails and then progressing into actually speaking on phone it is easy to get a vibe on a person. From all accounts, it's pretty obvious that the nice guy he was referring to was Mr. Bosma. He just may have found the other seller and bit more abrupt or direct or slightly less friendly and forth going on the phone... Unfortunately for my wallet, I get sentimentally attached to things and thus I sold one of them to a nice guy who I knew would love it is much as I did for less than a guy who called me and didn't ask any questions and said "I'll give you what you're asking, where can I see it" JMO of course

 

[jash]

It's interesting because MH testified that AM said DM would have wanted MS to have the toolbox, not that MS had called asking for it.

"Hagerman told the court that Michalski said Millard would have wanted the toolbox and backpack to go to Smich."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-matt-hagerman-snivelling-1.3525024

IMO it's possible that MH, who knew DM his entire life, was trying to protect him and thought giving the toolbox -- which DM had entrusted him with -- to MS was a mistake (perhaps he, like some on here, felt if DM wanted MS to have it, he would have given it to him in the first place).

IIRC, MH testified that he and AM argued about giving it to MS. I think AM had to convince MH that DM would have wanted MS to get the stuff (whether that was really what he believed, or he just wanted to get rid of the stuff and/or was afraid of not complying with MS's request is anyone's guess).

Just because MH did not mention MS asking for the stuff during his testimony doesn't mean he didn't understand that to be the case. Maybe the Crown didn't want him to get into that (as he had no direct knowledge and wasn't even present when AM had those phone conversations with MS, which had been the night before). JMO.