Bosma Murder Trial 04.14.16 - Day 35

[Ontario Mom]

If this was really just an armed robbery gone bad, DMs nonchalant attitude afterwards strikes me as very, very odd. He's just swell? Yup, they got the truck. Cremation device on hand. Goes ahead with pre Armed Robbery plans after **** hits the fan? To paint it? Nah... Something smells. Hope the Crown has more to drive that home.

Quite possibly the murky, black void where DM's soul/conscience should be. Just hunch.

 

[Abitcountry]

If there are reasonable alternative explanations though, they really don't have any more power taken together. Circumstantial cases are built thread by thread, but the threads still have to be independently inculpatory.

"Thread by thread" ......is that not what the Crown has been doing all along in this case....in fact in recent days it has almost been one small phrase or word at a time. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this case has been steadily building.

You speak of "reasonable alternative explantations".......it is sounding to me that the sense of those words is getting lost in their repetition.....So let's take those words in a different order and bring back their meaning-----alternative explanations that are reasonable.
So now after hearing all that we have heard during this trial and especially in most recent days, just what is the alternative explanation that you think is more reasonable.....and I repeat reasonable explanation ??

 

[Tilly23]

I don't think it was a test run at all and I think today's texts prove that. MOO. DM messages MS saying it was "mission day" on the 5th. He also asked AM who he should steal from. My personal opinion is that they intended to complete their "mission" on Sunday with IT but something stopped them, whether it was Igor mentioning his ties to the army or not. Other possibilities could be that he was too big to move after being killed, like into the incinerator as we suspected before. I think they brought a change of clothes the following day on TBs test drive and they went through with their (stupid) plan. MOO

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

I have found myself thinking about AM's testimony regarding the conversation in the kitchen when DM and MS showed up on the evening of May 5. This was after the IT test drive. Didn't AM say that DM said that they didn't steal the truck because MS was sick. And that he said it in front of MS. (I think this was where MS was reported to have eventually said he was hungover).

I've been wondering if they had the plan all ready to go and while they were in the car with IT, MS didn't do whatever it was he was supposed to do (hence the look exchanged between them and the change in atmosphere in the car, as reported by IT). So, then I picture the drive back to Maplegate, with DM and MS in the Yukon. Was DM angry that MS did not follow the plan? Did he call him a baby, a chicken, a coward? Did MS protest, no, I was just feeling sick, so I didn't go ahead. Then at Maplegate, DM would report to AM that they didn't steal the truck because MS was sick - calling out his story?

Just speculation on my part. MOO

 

[palisadesk]

I Individual pieces of evidence absolutely are weighed separately before they can be given weight towards guilt. If alternative explanations are reasonable those explanations must be applied, and that piece of evidence essentially becomes null.

That's true, perhaps I didn't explain it well. The totality of evidence can exclude components that the juror(s) don't find sufficiently convincing, i.e. for which other explanations are reasonable. But what individual jurors find reasonable will vary, however, each will have a concept of the "totality of the evidence" upon which to base a decision. The jurors don't need to agree 100% with each other on what those exact components are, only on what the totality means.

 

[Claroon]

If there are reasonable alternative explanations though, they really don't have any more power taken together. Circumstantial cases are built thread by thread, but the threads still have to be independently inculpatory.

Yes, but the jury is made of average people, not lawyers or law students. IMO they do have power and connection, for example: DM had blood on his purse suspiciously found in the wash machine the same week, SS also referred to the incinerator as a bbq, May 5th identified by accused as "mission day," blood on incinerator, key on DM's keychain, DNA & blood that could not be ruled out as DM's or TB's, texts and witness statements backing up crown's theory...

 

[redheart]

I have found myself thinking about AM's testimony regarding the conversation in the kitchen when DM and MS showed up on the evening of May 5. This was after the IT test drive. Didn't AM say that DM said that they didn't steal the truck because MS was sick. And that he said it in front of MS. (I think this was where MS was reported to have eventually said he was hungover).

I've been wondering if they had the plan all ready to go and while they were in the car with IT, MS didn't do whatever it was he was supposed to do (hence the look exchanged between them and the change in atmosphere in the car, as reported by IT). So, then I picture the drive back to Maplegate, with DM and MS in the Yukon. Was DM angry that MS did not follow the plan? Did he call him a baby, a chicken, a coward? Did MS protest, no, I was just feeling sick, so I didn't go ahead. Then at Maplegate, DM would report to AM that they didn't steal the truck because MS was sick - calling out his story?

Just speculation on my part. MOO

This makes sense to me. Also fits with the message from MS' ipad, likely sent to DM:

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 4h4 hours ago
Now seeing messages from the iPad from May 6 around 3:30 a.m. "330 am woke up in pain Going to burn and go back to sleep, this suck." #Bosma

Tough guy MS has to make sure DM knows he really is feeling sick, and not just that he chickened out the day before.

 

[JuneBug67]

"Thread by thread" ......is that not what the Crown has been doing all along in this case....in fact in recent days it has almost been one small phrase or word at a time. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this case has been steadily building.

You speak of "reasonable alternative explantations".......it is sounding to me that the sense of those words is getting lost in their repetition.....So let's take those words in a different order and bring back their meaning-----alternative explanations that are reasonable.
So now after hearing all that we have heard during this trial and especially in most recent days, just what is the alternative explanation that you think is more reasonable.....and I repeat reasonable explanation ??

There are several reasonable alternatives to premeditation to murder that are covered by 'bring a change of clothes'. If you read back you'll see that that element is what I have focused on in this discussion. I'm talking about that kind of evidence and the weight I would give it. There remains IMO significantly more knowable facts that argue against premeditation in this case than argue for it. And I will say again that the men are not charged with first degree murder based on premeditation, nor is premeditation laid in the Crown's roadmap. I think then it's fairly reasonable to conclude that there is in fact an interpretation of the facts that reasonably concludes this may not have been premeditated murder?

 

[Abitcountry]

I'd disagree. Could also be because they would be described by SB and TB (if they didn't kill him) to LE, and LE would subsequently be on the lookout for two guys wearing those clothes. A change of clothes after they steal the truck, and now they don't fit the witness description any longer.

I personally think that is a pretty viable explanation.

I once did a photo line up. I selected one photo from an album of 50 unsavoury characters....head and shoulder shots nothing more......I picked out the perp by his nose..... he had shaved his head and changed his clothes but there was no hiding the beak of a nose that he sported on his face. Give witnesses more credit.....Igor remembered only one tatoo. :clap:

 

[Claroon]

"Thread by thread" ......is that not what the Crown has been doing all along in this case....in fact in recent days it has almost been one small phrase or word at a time. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this case has been steadily building.

You speak of "reasonable alternative explantations".......it is sounding to me that the sense of those words is getting lost in their repetition.....So let's take those words in a different order and bring back their meaning-----alternative explanations that are reasonable.
So now after hearing all that we have heard during this trial and especially in most recent days, just what is the alternative explanation that you think is more reasonable.....and I repeat reasonable explanation ??

Yeah, if it was a generic bbq they were having where they might spill bbq sauce on them on the 5th or 6th, where's the guest list and testimony of party goers?

 

[Claroon]

Regarding the question of who said "baby"....I just noticed this. "'Don’t tell them anything babe, don’t tell them anything babe,' he recalled Smich yelling repeatedly."

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/24/tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues-today.html (bolding mine)

IMO MS typed "babe" and autocorrect turned it into "baby." :thinking:

 

[ArianeEmory]

Regarding the question of who said "baby"....I just noticed this. "'Don’t tell them anything babe, don’t tell them anything babe,' he recalled Smich yelling repeatedly."

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/24/tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues-today.html (bolding mine)

IMO MS typed "babe" and autocorrect turned it into "baby." :thinking:

No way any of them had autocorrect turned on, sorry.

 

[mimimic]

I'd disagree. Could also be because they would be described by SB and TB (if they didn't kill him) to LE, and LE would subsequently be on the lookout for two guys wearing those clothes. A change of clothes after they steal the truck, and now they don't fit the witness description any longer.

I personally think that is a pretty viable explanation.

<modsnip> it was after 9:00 WHERE would someone recognize these clothes, after 9:00 and by the next day after their sweet dreams?

 

[Abitcountry]

That's true, perhaps I didn't explain it well. The totality of evidence can exclude components that the juror(s) don't find sufficiently convincing, i.e. for which other explanations are reasonable. But what individual jurors find reasonable will vary, however, each will have a concept of the "totality of the evidence" upon which to base a decision. The jurors don't need to agree 100% with each other on what those exact components are, only on what the totality means.

I agree with you totally......and perhaps that is why the Crown took 2 1/2 years to put this case together. It is not that they had a shortage of evidence....Look at all the layers that are still being developed ......all the forensic experts who he been called to testify......all the different types of evidence from blood spatter right through to deleted cell phone data......and close to 100 witnesses in the courtroom....and almost 3 months of testimony.
No wonder Justice Goodman said this case would be decided on the totality of the evidence !!!
Honestly it is a veritable smorgasbord of fact, detail and evidence and testimony.....there is something for everyone on the jury to sink their teeth into in order to reach the decision they will ultimately be required to do.....and you can be sure that each of them will cherry pick the significant pieces of the evidence that speak the loudest to them. :clap:

 

[SnooperDuper]

I agree with you totally......and perhaps that is why the Crown took 2 1/2 years to put this case together. It is not that they had a shortage of evidence....Look at all the layers that are still being developed ......all the forensic experts who he been called to testify......all the different types of evidence from blood spatter right through to deleted cell phone data......and close to 100 witnesses in the courtroom....almost 3 months of testimony.
No wonder Justice Goodman said this case would be decided on the totality of the evidence !!!
Honestly it is a veritable smorgasbord of fact, detail and evidence and testimony.....there is something for everyone on the jury to sink their teeth into in order to reach the decision the will ultimately be required to do.....and you can be sure that each of them will cherry pick the significant pieces of the evidence that speak the loudest to them.

It is entirely normal for any murder case to take 2-1/2 years to get to court.

All trials are decided on the totality of the evidence.

 

[flipflop]

See what he did there? Clever.

SATAN=SAY10 imo

 

[mimimic]

That is definitely a real, horrifying possibility. I just hope, whatever happened, that there are enough facts to make the truth what they are convicted of. I'm just not sure we're there yet with premeditation. I'm not sure given the high bar of reasonable doubt that we will get there. The Crown's opening statement didn't have a roadmap to premeditation or even seem to imply it indirectly. It may be because whatever ever these *****bags did, the Crown believes the knowable facts will only be enough for second degree murder unless the element of forcible confinement is proven.

Please note next time in the video of the "said *****bags", when they pick up MM the next morning the blinking word in the top left corner, of 30 whatever street---(if you can come to a reasonable doubt as to what i mean by that address-good) if not ..i believe it is Spears (?) ha anyway the word blinking is a #, then the word garbage.

 

[Gibson67]

So, change of clothes.

- planning to be up all night and/or
- planning to get dirty and/or
- planning to need to change their appearance and/or
- planning to shift to some other millieu where different clothes will be needed

It's creepy and weird, but probably still not enough to say for sure that it's premeditation to harm IT. Thoughts?

your right and my first thought was IT would have a description of who stole his truck by clothing..change of clothing prob to disguise themselves after the theft.

 

[cansleuther]

<modsnip>
Bleach's first name is Mike.

At one point, Daly says, Smich asked him to help him get rid of it. Daly contacted his friend Mike &#8212; who went by the nickname &#8220;Bleach&#8221; &#8212; on Smich's behalf. They met up, but Daly recalls Mike didn't have nearly enough money.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/04/05/tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html

 

[mimimic]

BBM

Yes, yes, yes. I'm baffled when I see people saying they're not sure there's enough to convict. There is way more evidence in this trial than in many, many others that result in a conviction.

Yes somebody please put the comment of reasonable doubt in plain english, correct me if i am wrong, does it mean be reasonable - is there any doubt.? like for real? apologize i have now had a wine AND i am in shock with this testimony today!

 

[napper505]

molly hayes &#8207;@mollyhayes 16s16 seconds ago
Now seeing messages from May 5, 2013. First one (incoming) says "yeaow, you up negro? Mission day." #Bosma

Alex Pierson &#8207;@AlexpiersonAMP 15s16 seconds ago
Looking at msg's on ipad may 5 2013. "You up negro! Mission day" doesn't who say sent that msg.



Susan Clairmont &#8207;@susanclairmont 17s17 seconds ago
Now seeing contact list from BlackBerry. Includes; Big Iisho Matt Ward; Big Ish Cell; Big Isho New #; Dellen The Fellon; Kowaliki Mi Negro

Is this a play on AM"s nickname "Kowaliki Mi Negro" , "Kowalksi"

Is the person Texting "AM"? or "MS" because MS uses the term "n****s" in every sentence.

Napper505