Bosma Murder Trial 05.17.16 - Day 50

[Wollander77]

The oft-repeated accusation that MS could NOT POSSIBLY have forgotten such details. Really? He absolutely could not have? I know some posters defended the possibility of real memory loss as a result of trauma. However, this idea was mostly rejected by others. Also, it doesn't go far enough, in my opinion.

If MS really DID panic one night and haul off down the road and through the woods to bury the gun, it is not only possible, but in my mind probable, that he couldn't point to the exact spot again. Have you guys actually BEEN in a forest at night? It's nearly impossible to even see your hand in front of your face.

Additionally, if you were in a panic, thinking about what happened, what might happen, what to do next, what's going on, etc. it's very, very easy for me to believe that he was on auto pilot and doesn't remember details.

One last thing: I have ADHD. I can forget absolutely everything about a conversation or an event within minutes of discussing or experiencing it -- even traumatic events. But sometimes I don't. I don't know why, and I do not do it on purpose. In fact, since I am not always demonstrating utter stupidity or cluelessness, people are often incredulous when this happens. There is skepticism or even suspicion. It's not fun.

In any event, I just wanted to point out that just because you haven't experienced something or done something a certain way, it does not lend credence to the idea that one who does is necessarily lying or insincere. He or she MAY indeed be lying, but such a conclusion drawn solely from an unfamiliar experience is not logically supported.

<RSBM>

If that's the case, I might argue that drawing a conclusion based on a personal, familiar experience is likewise not "logically supported."

A few people mentioned in previous weeks the possibility of DM benefiting from an adrenaline rush to lift TB into the incinerator alone. My experiences have led me to think otherwise. I'm 5", but even in a moment of extreme anger and stress, I have never been able to throw down or even push my brother who is slightly heavier and five inches inches taller than me. Our respective experiences may not ultimately mean much if adrenaline, shock or thrill compelled DM, an alleged psychopath as some believe here, and MS to act in a completely different and unexpected way. Same goes for MS burying the gun. LE did not report that MS had ADHD, as you claim you have, but he evidently had enough awareness after drinking booze and smoking pot to tape down the gun, attach it somehow to his person, pack a spade, hop on a bike, and travel to Oakville forest.

I would also like to argue that I don't believe MS's testimony in regards to the gun, on account of his inability to recollect anything of what happened that evening. Because he remembered nothing, we can't necessarily determine under what conditions he might've hid the gun - near a streetlight, during a full moon, by a ravine, etc.? MS found his way back home in one piece, so it's entirely plausible to assume that he might've taken a familiar road, park, or section of forest to bury the gun, if he was relying on auto memory. That he had been unwilling, even now, to mention the general areas he might've travelled to strikes me as evasive, and ultimately, IMO, deceitful.

No doubt there will be those who strongly disagree, and that's fine. But if from that perspective, it appears as though I'm still arguing from an emotional state of mind, so be it.

 

[redheart]

<RSBM>

If that's the case, I might argue that drawing a conclusion based on a personal, familiar experience is likewise not "logically supported."

A few people mentioned in previous weeks the possibility of DM benefiting from an adrenaline rush to lift TB into the incinerator alone. My experiences have led me to think otherwise. I'm 5", but even in a moment of extreme anger and stress, I have never been able to throw down or even push my brother who is slightly heavier and five inches inches taller than me. Our respective experiences may not ultimately mean much if adrenaline, shock or thrill compelled DM, an alleged psychopath as some believe here, and MS to act in a completely different and unexpected way. Same goes for MS burying the gun. LE did not report that MS had ADHD, as you claim you have, but he evidently had enough awareness after drinking booze and smoking pot to tape down the gun, attach it somehow to his person, pack a spade, hop on a bike, and travel to Oakville forest.

I would also like to argue that I don't believe MS's testimony in regards to the gun, on account of his inability to recollect anything of what happened that evening. Because he remembered nothing, we can't necessarily determine under what conditions he might've hid the gun - near a streetlight, during a full moon, by a ravine, etc.? MS found his way back home in one piece, so it's entirely plausible to assume that he might've taken a familiar road, park, or section of forest to bury the gun, if he was relying on auto memory. That he had been unwilling, even now, to mention the general areas he might've travelled to strikes me as evasive, and ultimately, IMO, deceitful.

No doubt there will be those who strongly disagree, and that's fine. But if from that perspective, it appears as though I'm still arguing from an emotional state of mind, so be it.

Well said, as always. You should post more!

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I did some digging regarding head/dash... The actual testimony reported varies by source...


Source: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-smich-takes-the-stand-at-the-tim-bosma-trial


Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-mark-smich-testifies-1.3581032

Head ON the dashboard might be difficult to envision as other posters noted.
Head AGAINST the dashboard may be more accurate, the forensic testimony showed blood around the left side of the glovebox, right of center of dash / climate control area.

Thank you. I have a pic that I can't get loaded here but you got it. That whole colum in front of the driver and passenger is a "dashboard". If people are thinking that his head is ON TOP of the flat part of the dash, then geesh, yes I can see the confusion.

My pic shows me slumped over with my head resting just at the bend to the flat part of the dash. If I were a couple inches taller, I'd be closer to being on the flat of the dash.

 

[ILoveDateline]

I just wish Sachak would concede and admit defeat. I'm not sure I can take another day of asking the same 2 or 3 questions over and over with different wording. Then throw in a few lame attempts at humor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm late to the party. Today was the first day I was not able to follow along throughout the day to the live tweets and I've just spent 75 excruciating minutes getting caught up. Jeepers, that was painful. I went from laughing out load at MS responses to actual rage over Sachak's terrible, terrible jokes. I was rooting for MS to say, "I'm not going to dignify that with an answer". IMO.

Does this play off better in person? Sachak needs Gordon Ramsey to take him into the fridge for a pep talk.

 

[Ontario Mom]

The mob reporter really needs to take out the music. It seriously creeps me out!

It creeps me out too, but I know it's there so I mute it.

 

[redheart]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6559367-clairmont-jury-hears-alternate-story-of-bosma-shooting/

It was the first time Dellen Millard's defence team has pointed the blame for Tim Bosma's murder directly and unequivocally at Mark Smich.

It was a brief moment and it took an awfully long time to get to it, but its significance is immense all the same.

After more than three months of evidence and almost four days of testimony from Smich himself, the jury finally got a peek at the cards held by Millard's defence team.

"You never got paid because you screwed up when you put a bullet in Mr. Bosma's head," Millard's lawyer Nadir Sachak boomed at Smich during cross-examination on Tuesday.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Wollander77, I'm on an iPad so I can't easily quote/snip your post. But trying to push down a conscious human who is actively working against you is a different physics problem than moving an, excuse me, inert mass.

I was one of the people who speculated that I could have moved a 160lb mass with enough adrenaline and a few tools like a sheet. I'm a 5'5" female, and for full disclosure I can deadlift 135lbs (on a good day, anyway). I assume DM is much stronger just by dint of superior male upper body strength.

This should not be taken to indicate I believe all of MS's testimony, which has been too neat, and I think it's obvious he's lying about the gun, or rather avoiding answering the same way CN did.

 

[hellkat2]

Actually, his grandfather. His father didn't do much of anything either apparently. Until he did. And then his son didn't like it one bit IMO.

MOO

Exactly right.

 

[brightii]

I'm thinking tonight about AJ's reaction when he had called Crime-stoppers and was told that it was TB's truck in the hangar. AJ went outside in a panic and threw up beside his own vehicle.

Then we have MS testifying that while TB was being incinerated, he was stripping TB's truck at the hangar. Then on May 7th and 8th MS accepted weed and some cash from DM for MS having been with DM for the crime.

The only time I've heard that MS got sick was after he mixed an Oxy dose with his alcohol and that was before TB's murder. AJ was so scared of what may have happened to TB, who was still only a missing person at the time, that he risked SS's wrath and DM's by alerting SS about what he knew. MS knew TB had been murdered and by his own account and yet MS was still assisting DM and even accepting payment from DM for MS's role in the mission in the hours and days afterward.

AJ may not have gone the distance to help TB be found, but I believe AJ was truly fearful for his and his family's lives, whereas I don't believe that MS was fearful of DM or scared for his own life, IMO. Obviously there was no falling out between these "blood brothers" until after each of them were caught. The only fear I detect now from both of them is a desperate fear of punishment and prison.

All MOO.

 

[Typhoo1961]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6559367-clairmont-jury-hears-alternate-story-of-bosma-shooting/

It was the first time Dellen Millard's defence team has pointed the blame for Tim Bosma's murder directly and unequivocally at Mark Smich.

It was a brief moment and it took an awfully long time to get to it, but its significance is immense all the same.

After more than three months of evidence and almost four days of testimony from Smich himself, the jury finally got a peek at the cards held by Millard's defence team.

"You never got paid because you screwed up when you put a bullet in Mr. Bosma's head," Millard's lawyer Nadir Sachak boomed at Smich during cross-examination on Tuesday.

Obviously DM is telling his lawyers that MS shot TB.

 

[Wollander77]

Wollander77, I'm on an iPad so I can't easily quote/snip your post. But trying to push down a conscious human who is actively working against you is a different physics problem than moving an, excuse me, inert mass.

I was one of the people who speculated that I could have moved a 160lb mass with enough adrenaline and a few tools like a sheet. I'm a 5'5" female, and for full disclosure I can deadlift 135lbs (on a good day, anyway). I assume DM is much stronger just by dint of superior male upper body strength.

This should not be taken to indicate I believe all of MS's testimony, which has been too neat, and I think it's obvious he's lying about the gun, or rather avoiding answering the same way CN did.

True. I was actually referring to another post regarding the effects of adrenaline on an otherwise tranquil person. I believe a poster mentioned she was able to throw her much larger husband down in a moment of extreme anger. I can attest to lifting only maybe 70-80 pounds of dead weight on a good day (at least, from what I remember from my last visit to the gym, which was way too long ago). On an adrenaline rush, perhaps 80-90 pounds at most (and this is coming from someone who isn't fit, but had to carry volumes of books in my arms and three overly large bags across campus before the library closed - may not be enough comparison to DM's experiences, but perhaps in my case, it is).

My main point was that just because something might be possible for one person, it may not be possible for another to accomplish, given the right circumstances.

And as someone can believe in MS's testimony, there are many possible reasons for others to disbelieve him, on account of their own logical conclusions on the matter..

 

[mimimic]

It creeps me out too, but I know it's there so I mute it.

I put it on at just barely audible - for me it feels like it suits the feelings of sad/respectful. I generally don't play back round music. I like silence.

 

[Just4TB]

The mob reporter really needs to take out the music. It seriously creeps me out!

It's music that is now etched... if I hear it 30+ years from now, first thing that will come to mind is this murder trial for Tim Bosma's killers.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Obviously DM is telling his lawyers that MS shot TB.

Of course he is. The thing is though, based entirely on Sachak's line of questioning in cross with MS, I don't think even he believes it. I think if he DID, he'd zero in on the time frame from the moment they left the Bosma drive way until they made it to the farm in Ayr. You'll note, he's made ZERO mention of this, or the actual shooting in any way except to say MS shot TB. I don't believe he's going to go there at all, because it would appear to me, that he doesn't actually believe DM, if in fact this what DM is handing him. He's not going to leave himself wide open for MS to provide even more damning details against his client, that his own client didn't even tell him about.

Rock, meet hard place. Hard place, meet Sachak. Like many many others have already said, DM's defense actually has nothing, so right now, Sachak is grasping and driving everyone to frustration. Including the judge, for crying out loud.

moo, imo & all assorted disclaimers, etc.

 

[Traymar]

<RSBM>

If that's the case, I might argue that drawing a conclusion based on a personal, familiar experience is likewise not "logically supported."

A few people mentioned in previous weeks the possibility of DM benefiting from an adrenaline rush to lift TB into the incinerator alone. My experiences have led me to think otherwise. I'm 5", but even in a moment of extreme anger and stress, I have never been able to throw down or even push my brother who is slightly heavier and five inches inches taller than me. Our respective experiences may not ultimately mean much if adrenaline, shock or thrill compelled DM, an alleged psychopath as some believe here, and MS to act in a completely different and unexpected way. Same goes for MS burying the gun. LE did not report that MS had ADHD, as you claim you have, but he evidently had enough awareness after drinking booze and smoking pot to tape down the gun, attach it somehow to his person, pack a spade, hop on a bike, and travel to Oakville forest.

I would also like to argue that I don't believe MS's testimony in regards to the gun, on account of his inability to recollect anything of what happened that evening. Because he remembered nothing, we can't necessarily determine under what conditions he might've hid the gun - near a streetlight, during a full moon, by a ravine, etc.? MS found his way back home in one piece, so it's entirely plausible to assume that he might've taken a familiar road, park, or section of forest to bury the gun, if he was relying on auto memory. That he had been unwilling, even now, to mention the general areas he might've travelled to strikes me as evasive, and ultimately, IMO, deceitful.

No doubt there will be those who strongly disagree, and that's fine. But if from that perspective, it appears as though I'm still arguing from an emotional state of mind, so be it.

No, that's not specifically accurate. In the case where you've actually had that experience then that is your concrete evidence that it IS possible. However, the opposite is simply not true.

Let me be clear: I am am not naive enough to believe that MS is telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth with no regard for how he might incriminate himself. My sole point is that we have no factual basis for determining the veracity of these statements he's making (the ones for which we have no corroborating evidence or testimony to the contrary).

Actually, to put it another way, I fully believe MS is complicit in this crime regardless of whether he pulled the trigger. I also believe he has been coached to answer certain things and not others. I do not, however, come to this conclusion because I've decided: a) I would remember the details if it had been me in that situation; b) but he says he doesn't remember; c) ergo, he's lying.

Anyway, not sure I'm explaining myself very well, but believe me, I'm here for Tim Bosma and his family. I am horrified and heartbroken and disgusted. But I feel the need to be very precise about the things we accuse others of, and I personally feel that the facts are horrifying enough that they don't need any propping up by things we can't be sure are facts.

This is all simply my take and my opinion on the matter.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[hellkat2]

But the point is a lot of hip hop artists still do it. They'll talk about things they've never done. Take Tyler, The Creator's lyrics or Action Bronson's for example.

MS is the wanna be gangsta rappa turned gangsta rappa.

 

[ArianeEmory]

GENERALLY I agree that applying personal experience can be misleading. Personal experience is not actually a good substitute for actual statistics, and in some cases it WILL nuke your objectivity.

But it's how humans relate to things and communicate, so trying to stop it is Quixotic at best.

 

[NashBridges2]

Do you have a sense for what month? I'm going on holidays on Friday and at the rate this is going, I really wouldn't be surprised to come home a week later to the Sachak/MS show. MOO

My holidays are at the end of July and I'm worried Sachak will still be yammering on even then.

 

[ArianeEmory]

My holidays are at the end of July and I'm worried Sachak will still be yammering on even then.

If we're starting a "please let this man stop talking by ..." pool, I'm on vacation for a week starting June 5.

 

[canadiangirl]

If we're starting a "please let this man stop talking by ..." pool, I'm on vacation for a week starting June 5.

I have 2 weeks this summer. I'm hopeful at least one of those weeks works