Bosma Murder Trial 06.2.16 - Day 58 - Closing Arguments Day 3

[MrsThreadgoode]

Posted in error ... Sorry.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

MS's, and DM's story are neither sources of truth. Nor are they evidence. In fact the Crown's story is also not evidence.

There are not many on this forum that believe DM, or wonder about the actual intention for purchasing an animal incinerator. The Pet Cremation has been put to rest early in this trial, and the garbage burning has no history to prove the year old device was used for that purpose. We did hear today for the first time that DM tested it out on a deer. Why would he do that? Why not a load of garbage?

DM IMO was on a path to serious violent crimes. MS knew about the planned van modification, the gun, and the incinerator. While MS 3 years after the crime seems to some very normal when compared to DM, I believe he knew that violence could occur on these new improved missions, including the TB test drive, and in my books that makes MS a partner in this murder.

They both planned and covered up this crime.

It was MS that went to school with MWJ, and introduced DM to him. MS tried to pull too many BS lines when questioned about his involvement, and when questioned about "the gun guy". He knew DM bought his guns from MWJ, but tried to downplay who MWJ stood for by saying he was "the drug dealer guy". He damn well knows about the guns, and he knows damn well that MWJ is more than just the drug dealer. He didn't have any explanation for why he tried to contact MWJ after the murder. MS was not acting like someone shocked by DM murdering and burning an innocent man. No matter how many times he says "yes sir", "no sir".

MOO

bbm

Don't forget that even his best friend BD said, MS was into violence and often talked or joked about. Even when he joked about then he looked very serious and BD didn't feel comfortable in observing this oddness.

 

[Claroon]

Here is a thought that I can't shake.
If MS is found guilty of 1st degree murder, I believe there is a very strong possibility, that a 25 year sentence will in fact be a life extension for him.
The road he was on before the arrest, is a road that leads to an early death. Either getting whacked in a gang hit, short changing a drug deal, or if not that, the drugs, cigarettes and booze would have likely ended his life before 45.
In the 3 years since his arrest, he has cleaned up, improved himself. This sentence might be a blessing in disguise for MS. Now that he has physically cleaned up, he can spend the next 19 years working on cleaning his heart and soul.

I agree with rehabilitation. He needed it in many ways--drugs, alcohol, education, a brother or father figure, mentor...Some kids who flunk school have learning disabilities never diagnosed. They fall through the cracks. They medicate with drugs.

I personally think prisons should be rehabilitation focused. There are prison ministries who compassionately hold programs and send in volunteers to host groups and trainings. I'm unsure if there are any other programs other than Christian-based ones or not. I've seen prison TV shows and don't understand all this prison violence stuff. I guess some nuts never do crack. That environment is so counter-intuitive to someone who may one day be released.

DM, on the other hand, I feel likely has a mental issue. He's clearly detached. Maybe he can find a hidey hole where he can write and maybe one day work in the kitchen, but I think he may have a long history of odd behaviour and probably a lot of issues that his family was clever in bailing him out of in the past.

 

[ILoveDateline]

I agree with rehabilitation. He needed it in many ways--drugs, alcohol, education, a brother or father figure, mentor...Some kids who flunk school have learning disabilities never diagnosed. They fall through the cracks. They medicate with drugs.

I personally think prisons should be rehabilitation focused. There are prison ministries who compassionately hold programs and send in volunteers to host groups and trainings. I'm unsure if there are any other programs other than Christian-based ones or not. I've seen prison TV shows and don't understand all this prison violence stuff. I guess some nuts never do crack. That environment is so counter-intuitive to someone who may one day be released.

DM, on the other hand, I feel likely has a mental issue. He's clearly detached. Maybe he can find a hidey hole where he can write and maybe one day work in the kitchen, but I think he may have a long history of odd behaviour and probably a lot of issues that his family was clever in bailing him out of in the past.

Not related to the trial but rehabilitation: my sister-in-law is high up in women's corrections and my husband worked as a probation caseworker before moving on to another career. He tried to get a job at the new youth jail that opened in Brampton ~7yrs ago. They were focused on new therapies and rehabilitation. They used a new test to evaluate staff and IMO were really trying to weed out prejudices and wanted what I call kumbayaers . My husband failed the psych test as did corrections workers who had worked in the field for 20yrs. Just as there are many opinions here, there are just as many about how to successfully rehabilitate. JMO.

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

 

[Ontario Mom]

Here is a thought that I can't shake.
If MS is found guilty of 1st degree murder, I believe there is a very strong possibility, that a 25 year sentence will in fact be a life extension for him.
The road he was on before the arrest, is a road that leads to an early death. Either getting whacked in a gang hit, short changing a drug deal, or if not that, the drugs, cigarettes and booze would have likely ended his life before 45.
In the 3 years since his arrest, he has cleaned up, improved himself. This sentence might be a blessing in disguise for MS. Now that he has physically cleaned up, he can spend the next 19 years working on cleaning his heart and soul.

I have thoughts like that too and then wonder... what if... MS is actually the more vile among these two and just way better at putting on a front and gaming the system? He certainly wouldn't be the first criminal to do it, nor will he be the last.

 

[Claroon]

Kevin O'Leary of Shark Tank & Dragon's Den did a prison show a couple yrs ago. He has a brother that was in prison and he was adamant about rehab versus mere lockup. The show was compelling.

He said, "“Every criminal is a businessman,” “If you are a very successful drug dealer, you are a logistics exert. You are great at sales and marketing and inventory control.”http://nypost.com/2012/07/25/prison-chic/

 

[Just4TB]

I have thoughts like that too and then wonder... what if... MS is actually the more vile among these two and just way better at putting on a front and gaming the system? He certainly wouldn't be the first criminal to do it, nor will he be the last.

Right, could easily be. Just to be clear, I have zero sympathy for either MS or DM. The prison system is not ideal, and rehabilitation is a remote chance. I do feel that MS has a better chance at rehabilitation than DM, which is just a gut feeling from what I have heard via tweets. I doubt DM can ever be rehabilitated, and a dangerous offender status might be suitable for DM or both following the LB trial, and then the WM trial for DM..

 

[Claroon]

I have thoughts like that too and then wonder... what if... MS is actually the more vile among these two and just way better at putting on a front and gaming the system? He certainly wouldn't be the first criminal to do it, nor will he be the last.

Oh yes, I have thought that too for sure. Especially how much smarter he was to get rid of so many of his messages, prints, DNA, etc. He met MWJ in highschool--had been on that negative road for over 7 yrs by the Bosma incident. When I saw the music video, I understood the claim it was acting, but doesn't it make you wonder who would participate in such a vile production?

 

[Just4TB]

Good post Just4TB, and you must have much faith in our jail/prison system. You seem very optimistic where I see him going on a decline should he be found guilty of murder. It's well known drugs are fairly accessible in jails and prisons and what better way for either of them to enjoy their years behind bars as "lifers." They will fit in the the majority and take what they can get when opportunity arises...IF they aren't already getting the odd bit here and there kwim. DM was looking pretty sickly there for awhile. Perhaps his stash of coffee is getting him drug exchanges. I wonder how DM has been feeling lately in the tummy trouble area? JMO.

I agree. Zero sympathy for MS or DM here. Not a lot of faith in the prison system, but something did trigger MS to clean himself up physically, and I don't believe it was just a show to try and get a reduced charge. Perhaps there already is someone who has been coaching him on how to improve himself. TD perhaps? TD is not staying in the game for the money IMO, he must enjoy his work. After 40 years as a lawyer, I'm sure he could hang up his hat if he wanted to. TD also seems to have some moral fiber. One of the biggest surprises to me in this trial, is how quick witted MS was. What a waste of potential!! Maybe TD sees potential remaining, and is mentoring MS into bettering himself.

 

[Typhoo1961]

I guess I'd be hopeful the wiping job was as good as the truck. And if MS opened the toolbox and handled it, his prints everywhere too.

Did we ever find out what happened to the actual toolbox?

It was shown to one of the witnesses during their testimony but I forget which witness.

 

[Claroon]

It was shown to one of the witnesses during their testimony but I forget which witness.

Yes, it was tested for GSR and was part of the exhibits as well as being shown later to the witness you speak of.

 

[TOR]

Having heard all the evidence, I still don't think MS is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It's difficult because I think about TB, his family and the pain they are going through and that makes me really want to make a decision that feels like justice is served. It won't bring him back, but it might offer temporary relief or a feeling of getting them (MS, DM) back for all the pain that was caused by their stupidity. I read their texts and see the life they were living and I can see how easy it is to be inclined to think they are better off locked up. Or they deserve it...

But If I were a juror, Im not sure I would be able to make the decision to put someone away for life based on the lack of evidence around MS.

- His story around the events the night of the murder line up. It makes sense with the bobcat video footage (vs lack of evidence in field where Crown suggested murder took place) and also explains the lack of GSR or blood in the Yukon.
- DM was seen wearing satchel that was found in DM's washing machine with GSR or blood on it, which further shows MS story to be accurate
- DM continued cleaning up with help of CN after MS was no longer involved, he parked the car at his mom's home and put the truck's key on his key ring with all his other possessions like a prize or keepsake. This is what serial killers do - collect keepsakes from their victims which continues to make me sick thinking about it. This again shows MS story to be most accurate (DM desperate, goes for the kill "Im keeping it", and keeps the truck and goes on about life like nothing happened - truly deranged)
- DM tried to set him up as proven in the letters where he tampers with evidence/witnesses and speaks to concocting a story based on disclosure (I think this was the most damning evidence to show MS was right about how sick in the head DM truly was. If the amazing work of the police hadn't uncovered this, I think the trial would have ended up very different)

In terms of the circumstantial character evidence about MS:
- The "amnesia" around gun: There's simply so much scientific research that shows traumatic experiences and pot usage both significantly affect the brain's ability to create memories. TD is right - he could have lied and said he tossed it in a lake, but he didnt. He stuck to his story under intense pressure by people much smarter than him. I also can't help to speculate though whether he was scared for his life because of MWJ - but that's speculation so let's not get into that.
- Why he stayed and helped clean up: Over drinks with my neighbors, we were talking about this. 4 out of 5 in the group admitted that while it's impossible to assume how you'd react in a situation until you are in it (hello: look at judging parents when a young 20-something to becoming a parent and the "rules" are out the window! LOL like "I'll never be like my mom"). If we were hypothetically in MS shoes with a best friend or loved one who just did something like this, we probably would have helped in some way and possibly would not have called police. Not to mention being on drugs, having a criminal record and being under duress. This may also explain why so many witnesses (friends, family) all seemed to have known something but didnt say anything. If we get off of our soap boxes for a second and think about it... I don't know how I would truly react in that same situation.
- Why he continued contact with DM: Google Stokholm syndrome. There's a lot of scientific evidence that loving the abuser or person who created your traumatic experience is a coping mechanism the brain creates as an evolutionary mechanism.
- Why he didnt go to police after: You've just helped cover up a murder. You're going to go to the police and turn yourself and your squeaky clean psychotic millionaire friend (who you suspect would turn on you and frame you) in to the police? Yeah right.
- The texts: There was an actual bbq that week they were inviting girls to... I venture you to look at your texts messages over the past 2 months and see if there's anything that could be spun to look like you are up to no good. What did you mean about the box in the basement you asked your wife to get? etc etc

I know I'm going to get a lot of attacks for saying this because I'm sensing my opinion is unpopular, but I just don't think MS is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I wouldn't be able to put MS away for life based on the evidence that's been presented and I think the jury needs to really think critically, not emotionally, about the reaction their decisions will cause.

 

[Errrr]

Kevin O'Leary of Shark Tank & Dragon's Den did a prison show a couple yrs ago. He has a brother that was in prison and he was adamant about rehab versus mere lockup. The show was compelling.

He said, "“Every criminal is a businessman,” “If you are a very successful drug dealer, you are a logistics exert. You are great at sales and marketing and inventory control.”http://nypost.com/2012/07/25/prison-chic/

Like Doug Ford!

 

[Ontario Mom]

Having heard all the evidence, I still don't think MS is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It's difficult because I think about TB, his family and the pain they are going through and that makes me really want to make a decision that feels like justice is served. It won't bring him back, but it might offer temporary relief or a feeling of getting them (MS, DM) back for all the pain that was caused by their stupidity. I read their texts and see the life they were living and I can see how easy it is to be inclined to think they are better off locked up. Or they deserve it...

But If I were a juror, Im not sure I would be able to make the decision to put someone away for life based on the lack of evidence around MS.

RSBM but - this. Even before MS took the stand and told his version of events, I felt this way. Lots of others did/do too.

 

[Claroon]

Was just re-reading some earlier stuff. Crown got this point across well: anic:Anyone seeing someone murder and burn another person should be afraid for their own life. Go to police, leave town, whatever, don't hang around and help him have campfires. IMO

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I agree this is a strong possibility. But what the heck does Ima round the block mean ... Sorry, their lingo confuses me at times.


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I took it as, around the block over at buddy's house.

 

[rmoeller]

Caught my attention, and helped to change my mind.

I found their collaboration to contact Iisho about the gun particularly damning.

 

[canadiangirl]

I know I'm going to get a lot of attacks for saying this because I'm sensing my opinion is unpopular, but I just don't think MS is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I wouldn't be able to put MS away for life based on the evidence that's been presented and I think the jury needs to really think critically, not emotionally, about the reaction their decisions will cause.

Rsbm
No attacks by me. It's funny because at first I thought, seriously? Innocent dupe? There was a whole thread dedicated to that theory in 2013. I don't think I ever posted in it, read it, or gave it a serious thought. Then the more the trial unfolded, and based on the entire scope of the evidence, it was becoming clearer there is still reasonable doubt IMO. I have found a lot of the popular opinion is very intense in that they were in it "together" so put them away both on and off WS, so it'll be interesting to see how it unfolds.

 

[canadiangirl]

Was just re-reading some earlier stuff. Crown got this point across well: anic:Anyone seeing someone murder and burn another person should be afraid for their own life. Go to police, leave town, whatever, don't hang around and help him have campfires. IMO

I don't know that I agree. Ever hear of the "Godfather" complex? They harm someone else, but they never harm their own.

 

[Claroon]

Having heard all the evidence, I still don't think MS is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It's difficult because I think about TB, his family and the pain they are going through and that makes me really want to make a decision that feels like justice is served. It won't bring him back, but it might offer temporary relief or a feeling of getting them (MS, DM) back for all the pain that was caused by their stupidity. I read their texts and see the life they were living and I can see how easy it is to be inclined to think they are better off locked up. Or they deserve it...

But If I were a juror, Im not sure I would be able to make the decision to put someone away for life based on the lack of evidence around MS.

- His story around the events the night of the murder line up. It makes sense with the bobcat video footage (vs lack of evidence in field where Crown suggested murder took place) and also explains the lack of GSR or blood in the Yukon.
- DM was seen wearing satchel that was found in DM's washing machine with GSR or blood on it, which further shows MS story to be accurate
- DM continued cleaning up with help of CN after MS was no longer involved, he parked the car at his mom's home and put the truck's key on his key ring with all his other possessions like a prize or keepsake. This is what serial killers do - collect keepsakes from their victims which continues to make me sick thinking about it. This again shows MS story to be most accurate (DM desperate, goes for the kill "Im keeping it", and keeps the truck and goes on about life like nothing happened - truly deranged)
- DM tried to set him up as proven in the letters where he tampers with evidence/witnesses and speaks to concocting a story based on disclosure (I think this was the most damning evidence to show MS was right about how sick in the head DM truly was. If the amazing work of the police hadn't uncovered this, I think the trial would have ended up very different)

In terms of the circumstantial character evidence about MS:
- The "amnesia" around gun: There's simply so much scientific research that shows traumatic experiences and pot usage both significantly affect the brain's ability to create memories. TD is right - he could have lied and said he tossed it in a lake, but he didnt. He stuck to his story under intense pressure by people much smarter than him. I also can't help to speculate though whether he was scared for his life because of MWJ - but that's speculation so let's not get into that.
- Why he stayed and helped clean up: Over drinks with my neighbors, we were talking about this. 4 out of 5 in the group admitted that while it's impossible to assume how you'd react in a situation until you are in it (hello: look at judging parents when a young 20-something to becoming a parent and the "rules" are out the window! LOL like "I'll never be like my mom"). If we were hypothetically in MS shoes with a best friend or loved one who just did something like this, we probably would have helped in some way and possibly would not have called police. Not to mention being on drugs, having a criminal record and being under duress. This may also explain why so many witnesses (friends, family) all seemed to have known something but didnt say anything. If we get off of our soap boxes for a second and think about it... I don't know how I would truly react in that same situation.
- Why he continued contact with DM: Google Stokholm syndrome. There's a lot of scientific evidence that loving the abuser or person who created your traumatic experience is a coping mechanism the brain creates as an evolutionary mechanism.
- Why he didnt go to police after: You've just helped cover up a murder. You're going to go to the police and turn yourself and your squeaky clean psychotic millionaire friend (who you suspect would turn on you and frame you) in to the police? Yeah right.
- The texts: There was an actual bbq that week they were inviting girls to... I venture you to look at your texts messages over the past 2 months and see if there's anything that could be spun to look like you are up to no good. What did you mean about the box in the basement you asked your wife to get? etc etc

I know I'm going to get a lot of attacks for saying this because I'm sensing my opinion is unpopular, but I just don't think MS is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I wouldn't be able to put MS away for life based on the evidence that's been presented and I think the jury needs to really think critically, not emotionally, about the reaction their decisions will cause.

Could attempt to counter several of your points, but I think the Crown put it as straightforward as it needs to be:

"Helpers or those who encourage a murder may be as guilty as someone who causes a murder, Letich says. "If there was one shooter, does that mean the other non-shooter is not guilty? Not at all."
by Adam Carter 9:53 AM

"To knowingly help a murderer do it, or encouraging a murder ... is enough."
by Adam Carter 9:54 AM

"We are not required to prove who did what."
by Adam Carter 9:56 AM

Leitch says the issue is, are you satisfied they were both in this together.
by Adam Carter 9:56 AM

"If you are spending your time trying to decide who did what, you are missing the point."
by Adam Carter 9:57 AM

Leitch says both are guilty either as being a party to the crime, or as the shooter.
by Adam Carter 9:59 AM"