Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #10

[Claroon]

Some posters have questioned whether people are really afraid of DM and how he could possibly "have control" over them. I was just reading about sociopaths and one article said this,

"a sociopath needs control, has the skills to get it, and will stop at nothing to achieve it." "conniving, manipulative, deceitful, and dishonest; a symptom of a sociopath is blatant violation of the rights of others. Charming and smooth...However, don't let this sociopath symptom fool you, for these social skills are superficial, insincere, and only used by the sociopath to get his or her way." "Law-breaking behavior is the rule rather than the exception for the sociopathic personality..readily commits crimes against people and property..."

"A fairly common conception in society is that the sociopath has been indulged and spoiled"
"A low-functioning sociopath can sometimes be quick to anger, hot-headed. He can quickly become violent, and because he's a sociopath, he doesn't hesitate to injure or kill"
.
http://www.healthyplace.com/persona...ymptoms-of-a-sociopath-in-men-women-children/
http://www.healthyplace.com/persona...tioning-sociopaths-and-the-damage-they-cause/


Not diagnosing here, but sounds like the reasoning behind the crime. IMO

 

[deugirtni]

Good answers! AJ is a possibility that would lead to dellen the felon, but he was vey hesitant and seemed to only commit when the S.H.T.F. & the cell phone pings I suppose, but that would take a considerable amount of time. I think the things that led LE to Dm so quick was the friends of TB and their use of social media, the test drive (and tat awareness) of Mr T, and DMs cockiness and putting the truck in plain view. I also think that one of DMs friends (AM or MH) may have, with time, become disgusted enough to notify LE if they became 100% aware of what was going on... MAYBE... The video evidence on its own I don't think would sound too many alarms, its nicely stitched together now because LE made it so, but individually amt to not much.

in light of everything its truly a wonder how quick he was under the microscope, and if given much more time there may have been considerably less evidence. And like what was said: its scary to think that if one of those small things didn't happen how long it may have taken otherwise.

And with the 'how long it may have taken otherwise', comes 'and what evidence would have disappeared, possibly forever, during that elapsed time?' Personally I doubt if AJ would have come clean if everything had gone along. He would have come into work on the Friday, as he did, and found the truck gone... sure, he would have still had the photo on his phone.. but really, if they didn't have the truck itself, how well would the photo have stood up in court as proof that it was in the hangar on that date? There is a photo of a truck. Then there is a photo of a VIN. The 2 are not actually shown together in one picture. The photos are date/timestamped, but isn't there a way to alter that without detection? If in the meantime, the truck had gone ahead and been painted..... would the bodyshop guy who DM had used in the past, speak up, or even clue in? I get the impression that if not for RBurns, some of these others may not have offered themselves up as witnesses. Would any of the video evidence have been recorded over by the time they got to it? Would memories fade, and specifically details such as times and dates from some of the witnesses who placed people and places into the timelines? For me, this case is *so* interesting because it feels like he could almost have gotten away with this, and that scares the bejesus out of me.

I have to admit that the longer things roll around in my head, the more disgusted I get with SS. When he said, 'even me?'.. wow.. to me, that says a lot right there. Like.. 'what??? even ME??? Even though I already know full well what you guys were up to, you trusted me enough to tell me about it, and you should know by now that you can absolutely trust me not to ever tell????' And it was actually said to be *his* (SS's) acquaintance at whose house they dropped off DM's red Ram. And why did SS think he was doing this? Some bogus reason about DM wanting to ensure his vehicle was available in case of a hangar lockdown? I don't think so. I'll bet the plans weren't yet fully formulated in DM's scheming mind, and somehow he was going to work it out in his head as to whether he could pull a fast one and have police believing the black truck was DM's, just painted, or something to that effect.. with a bit of work, who knows? And him getting mad and walking out when his father-in-law told him that the truck did IN FACT belong to TB.. what was he mad at? Why have they still not spoken since then? What is that about? And he remained a loyal puppet for 2 more years. Wow. Did the Crown ask SS when he was on the stand what *his* current occupation is? My bet is he'll be looking at a boatload of unemployment over the next few decades to help make up for his bad choices.

 

[Claroon]

Yes, there ae diagnostic differences between psychopaths and sociopaths. In fact, although the popular concept of a psychopath is of someone violent and criminal, this is not often the case. Most psychopaths stay out of trouble with the law (my source for this is Dr. Robert Hare, the leading authority on psychopathy, who is from B.C. and who developed the diagnostic protocols for identifying psychopaths). The reason most aren't violent offenders is simply they are first and foremost out for Number One, and being incarcerated isn't what they have in mind for themselves. They tend to be callous, narcissistic, exploitative of others, manipulative, parasitic ...and so on.

Psychopaths are identified, clinically, through the use of the PCL-R, the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised, which includes those characteristics listed in the article cited, but how the test is structured and scored is proprietary. It is rather like widely used IQ tests such as the Weschler in that it has a large empirical database from controlled research, requires significant training by professionals licensed to use it, and has high inter-rater reliability (that is, two different test administrations will yield statistically similar scores; this is true of adult IQ tests as well). Besides the characteristics in the list, other items in the subject's background and history are assessed and assigned numerical values. Most people score 5 or lower on the PCL-R; Paul Bernardo scored a 35 - the maximum is 40. To meet criteria for a diagnosis of psychopathy, a person needs a score of 30 or higher.

I'm predicting DM will meet criteria, but if he falls short, I predict it won't be by much. However I'm aware this is armchair speculation. We may never learn what his score is, but it's a virtual certainty he will be assessed after the trial is over, as the results of a psychiatric/psychological evaluation will go into determining his sentencing conditions (not term of sentence).

I may have mentioned it before, but a really good book to read if you're interested in the topic is Dr. Hare's own Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us, which is probably the definitive book for the general reader on the topic. HPL and TPL have it, but you can pick it up easily on Amazon as well. You are almost certain to recognize people you know, as the rate of psychopathy in the general population is up to 5%, meaning most of us have worked with (or for) one, married one, are related to one, or a neighbour to one. IIRC he also provides insightful opinions on how to deal with such people when you meet them.

Here's the Amazon link (reviews etc. are pretty positive)
https://www.amazon.ca/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-Psychopaths/dp/1572304510

One article separates psychopaths from sociopaths saying "A sociopath is not .. psychotic; a sociopath doesn't have hallucinations or delusions. (It's important to note that the term "psychopath" is often confused with the term "psychotic." To be psychotic means to be out of touch with reality due to hallucinatory sensations and delusional beliefs."

http://www.healthyplace.com/persona...ymptoms-of-a-sociopath-in-men-women-children/

 

[deugirtni]

Isn't it true that in the event of a suicide that insurance is void

Yes you are right, there is that aspect... the wording would be potentially different with each policy/insurer.. but in my experience there is usually a clause to that effect, but it is only for a specified period of time.. which could be anything.. I don't think we could determine that without seeing the policy.. 2 years does come to mind as a usual time period though... does anyone know how long that loan had been in effect? Wow, if that is the case, then that was a major screwup for DM!

 

[deugirtni]

Through employment I have gone through the process a few times of being the hunter/gatherer for all of the firstborn children the bank required for approval of a large-sum business loan. The entire process, for one reason and another, took a long time, the list of requirements was lengthy, and even when something would be provided, they would ask for yet more. And more. They aren't taking chances on those babies. The insurance on all of the principals was mandatory, although it wasn't specified as to where it must be obtained.. but it *was* a particular type of life insurance, one which is way more expensive than just your average policy. I can probably still get my hands on the info regarding in the event of suicide, and/or the 'usual' timeframe is undoubtedly available on the net.. does anyone have the info on when that loan was issued for the hangar?

I guess I am having a lightbulb moment.... wondering if *this* is why DM described it as a 'sudden bleed in his brain'? I wonder if he fought that determination by the coroner? Sure wouldn't surprise me! 'Hello, Mr. Life Insurer? I'm here to collect my dad's life insurance because he is no longer alive according to the coroner... Oh, I'm so sorry dear, but the policy is null and void because he died of suicide.'.. omg I can just imagine the look on his face.

The cause of Wayne’s death remains a mystery. Police initially deemed it a suicide but have since reopened an investigation.


“People asked me how he died,” Millard says. “I’d say he died of a sudden bleed in his brain, which is what the coroner told me.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...didnt_kill_tim_bosma_exclusive_interview.html

 

[brightii]

Tonight I re-read the crown opening statement, then reviewed it against Billandrew's (awesome) timeline.
Incredible how much evidence exists now at this stage, and it is fascinating how the crown laid out this evidence, despite legal objections.


At this stage in the trial, only a few missing pieces remain, and with all the other pieces in place, the shape of some remaining evidence is obvious, while some is still nebulous...
The Cellebrite forensics on DM phone(s) and the testimony of CN and MM are literally gaps in the timeline. A couple more forensic exhibits expected also.


Here are a few of the missing pieces...that may or may not come out in the upcoming testimony...
- The Yukon leaving the hangar prior to the cremation... I believe they went back to Roseville Rd farm... forgot the ether?
- DM and CN put the Eliminator into the wooded trail... what else did they do at the farm?
- DM told CN about the truck, the murder, and the hiding of evidence? (based on the letters, she knows all IMO)
- Something occurred at Riverside between 4am and 9am on May 10th, bathroom, and outdoors (hoses), will CN testify what occurred?
- Were both CN and DM at Riverside? Or one or the other? At that time, it was full scramble hide things.
- Immediately after the Riverside hoses, Whidden texted DM about Scotty being sick... who is Scotty? Is it Scotty VA? (speculative - initials only)
- Did CN tip off MS that DM was arrested? Was MM informed of DM's arrest and who tipped-off MS?
- MM - What pre-planning was she made aware of? (MM was nervous that MS wasn't home May 7 AM)
- How did AM know that DM and MS were fine when he texted MM that morning?
- MM - what did MS confide in her? "Gone, Gone, Gone" but any other incriminating details?

my opinion only

:goodpost:

Thanks for narrowing down the remaining issues nicely! It helps me a lot! These details once addressed will help clear the cloud of any lingering doubts I have, I hope, to reveal the big and entire picture of the crime, IMO.

The puzzle is nearing its completion and I hope all the pieces will fit. There's nothing more discouraging than having invested tons of time and energy working on a puzzle to discover, when nearly finished, the last piece or two are missing or don't match. Whenever that happens, it always bugs me, and yet, in a trial it's okay to have some puzzle pieces missing or ill-fitting, and that allows room for reasonable doubt and therefore a just decision does not rely upon the puzzle having been completed to perfection, IMO.

As said repeatedly by everyone, it is the totality of the evidence that will convince the jury and guide their verdicts, and I agree. Justice is on its way soon for TB.

All MOO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

One article separates psychopaths from sociopaths saying "A sociopath is not .. psychotic; a sociopath doesn't have hallucinations or delusions. (It's important to note that the term "psychopath" is often confused with the term "psychotic." To be psychotic means to be out of touch with reality due to hallucinatory sensations and delusional beliefs."

http://www.healthyplace.com/persona...ymptoms-of-a-sociopath-in-men-women-children/

But isn't believing that you can earn $100,000 a month through a life of crime delusional?

 

[Arnie M]

Here is a hypothetical for you sleuths:

Had it not been for the ambition tattoo, do you think D.M would have been caught.

Hmmmmmm ..... I am going to suggest he may not have been caught ...... police would have contacted Igor from the burner phone records but about all he could offer was a second description of the suspects similar to Mrs Bosma's .... police could have checked for CCTV video in the areas around Igor to see if they could spot where the "two men" parked and walked from .... but I doubt such footage exists because police would have used it at the trial.

The huge publicity played an important part especially when it came to AJ recognizing the truck in the hangar .... but as mentioned he did not fully come forward until later

Now let me shift gears a bit .... if there had been no publicity and all they had was Igor noticing the tattoo ..... I think DM would have been caught with that alone because the tattoo info was already "carded" in police files and a good detective interviewing DM would spot deception ..... but that would presume police took the whole matter seriously and did a full investigation ..... which is rare in most auto theft cases.

I think we have to admit some luck and some Angels helped to catch SAY10 and associates.

 

[brightii]

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...ate-to-testify-at-tim-bosma-murder-trial.html

I re-read this article and it caused me to wonder again ...

I now think it very possible that if MH in fact called CS, as he testified to having done to report MS as the 2nd suspect, it may have been because, as we now know, his good friend AM had also come under suspicion of LE and was arrested for first degree murder in the early days of the investigation, IMO. It seems that AM was arrested for first degree murder before DM's own charges were upgraded as such, IMO, and that put AM in a very serious situation, IMO. It would make sense IMO that both AM and MH would want to divert attention at that time to another suspect, the one they both testified about having been sketchy and not fitting in, IMO. Both AM and MH surely didn't want the investigation to uncover anything that might implicate either of them, IMO.

Why would MH have suspicion about MS in those early days after the crime, when MH said DM had dropped off the toolbox to him for safekeeping and didn't tell him any details about why? The only person MH was communicating with after DM's visit was AM, IMO, and therefore MH must have been basing his assumptions about things on the information AM told him, IMO. IMO, AM wanted two people protected from LE, himself and DM, IMO, so he had motive to mislead MH and to throw suspicion on MS, IMO. We know that both AM and MH lied to police, so I have no problem with believing that either of them may have lied to the other, IMO.

I would love to know the timing of the CS phone call by MH and if it was inspired by LE's interest in AM as a potential 2nd suspect at that time?

I wondered before, but I wonder even more now if the falling out between friends "due to lies told" according to MH had to do with MH's call to CS and the real reason behind it? I also wonder if MH later became suspicious about just how much AM knew and how much of what AM knew was shared honestly with MH? There's a reason why these two friends are no longer talking and it has to do with a broken pact and a betrayal of trust, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[Arnie M]

.

$100,000 per month would be within the ballpark of lease and service costs for a brand new 50,000 sq foot hangar near Toronto.

Right now Calgary has a 49,735 sqf of hangar/office for ($13 sqf lease) plus ($12 sqf operating cost) = $1,243,375 per annum

If DM would have rented his out to a charter Arline it would pay the bills and pay the mortgage

 

[brightii]

I find it interesting that AM was asked on the stand by the Crown if he had spoken with CN and/or MB, IMO. Thinking about who will testify for the Crown, I am wondering if they are indeed saving their most compelling witness for last and if it could be MB?

MB has remained safely out of sight and under the radar, and while it may seem to some that it's a given she would testify on behalf of her only child, her son, DM, I do wonder if she will, IMO. Perhaps after these three long and painful years, MB has come to realize what her son is capable of and accept that he did commit the crime of murder of which he stands accused? Will MB end up testifying for the Crown, all for the greater good, in the interest of public safety, and with a sincere wish to demonstrate to TB's family that she will not help shield DM from facing the appropriate punishment for his crime? I wonder....

A mother's love is a powerful motivator, but so is the love of truth and justice, IMO. I feel for MB and think she is also a victim of DM's perceived charms that belied his cruel intentions and dangerous deceptions, IMO. My goodness, it can be hard to be a mother in ordinary circumstances involving ordinary adult children, but I can only imagine how MB is coping in this extraordinary situation caused by DM, IMO. When DM unleashed his demons to create terror and torment in the world for his innocent victim, TB, IMO, he created in one monstrous and maniacal moment, in the instant of TB's final heartbeat, unspeakable and inconsolable heartache, IMO. If MB is called to testify, I hope she finds the courage and the grace to tell the whole unvarnished truth about DM so that justice will long echo....

All MOO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I've been thinking about this red caddy thing and I think you might be on to what kind of a defense we're going to hear. MS was doing this "mission" to get the red caddy. DM didn't like the car so he was willing to trade off a sucessful mission to steal a Ram 3500 for the caddy.

So they'll probably say that MS was supposed to be the one who dealt with the owner during the test drive. Intimidating them or getting them to exit the vehicle somehow. He chickened out with IT because of his size and military training. So the next night, MS alone decided to bring the gun to deal with the owner, much to DM's surprise when he just up and shot him of course. And because it was DM's "mission", he felt obligated to help cover up what MS did.

Yep...I can see this being a strategy.

MOO

A man with shaved head, mostly always the same hoody, preferably partially stoned, without any job, without any future prospects, without any money for fuel, living at his mother's home/his girlfriend's app. - driving a boat-sized red caddy through Oakville to get to his dayly meeting point with BD (instead of skateboarding or BMXing)? I think, that doesn't fit at all.

 

[jash]

Hmmmmmm ..... I am going to suggest he may not have been caught ...... police would have contacted Igor from the burner phone records but about all he could offer was a second description of the suspects similar to Mrs Bosma's .... police could have checked for CCTV video in the areas around Igor to see if they could spot where the "two men" parked and walked from .... but I doubt such footage exists because police would have used it at the trial.
<RSBM>

Police may still have honed in on DM if they did tower dumps and isolated phones that were pinging the same towers at the same time as the Bate phone. (or have I been watching too many TV shows?)

 

[Inspector_North]

Police may still have honed in on DM if they did tower dumps and isolated phones that were pinging the same towers at the same time as the Bate phone. (or have I been watching too many TV shows?)

Without the force of the Bosma family and friends, I wonder about the effort that would have been put into this case by LE. LB's phone records of last calls to DM, didn't seem to trigger any investigative results the first time around.

They would have found DM and MS, but it would have been because of the Bosma army relentless pressure.

I have much respect for the Bosma's.

MOO

 

[ABro]

Without the force of the Bosma family and friends, I wonder about the effort that would have been put into this case by LE. LB's phone records of last calls to DM, didn't seem to trigger any investigative results the first time around.
MOO

Except in the Bosma case, the police already had made emergency phone record requests in the early hours of Tuesday May 7 hours before anyone woke up and checked their Facebook.

 

[Inspector_North]

The circumstances around LB and TB's disappearances are very, very different. I don't want to take anything away from the Bosma family but to act like police would have just shrugged their shoulders about this disappearance otherwise is... I seem to be saying this a lot in this thread... IMO, pretty unfair.

Fair enough. IMO, from what we know, it would have only been AJ calling CS that was a separate lead. That was due to AJ's knowledge of TB missing. Bosma's had much to do with getting the message out, and the media exposure.

I never said they would have shrugged it off, which is IMO pretty unfair of my comment. I said I wonder if LE would have put in so much effort. Remember that it was most likely the Bosma family character that quickly convinced LE that Tim didn't just take off. Therefore triggering the urgent access to phone records. MOO

 

[Inspector_North]

Except in the Bosma case, the police already had made emergency phone record requests in the early hours of Tuesday May 7 hours before anyone woke up and checked their Facebook.

Thanks for the reminder. I must admit I am pretty critical of LE from a personal experience with LE not taking immediate action. This delay cost a little boy his life.

I am impressed with the work LE did in this case. It would be so nice if those resources were available throughout the province of Ontario, and with the same speed. Maybe they are now? The boy died uncessarly decades ago. MOO

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I would think that if any more charges were coming they would have been made already.

Im thinking no due to publication bans. There could be other charges but we/public will not know untill after this trial. The thefts are still under investigation and we now have others admitting to them. I see future headlines "Dellen the convicted Fellon and his gang up on more charges" Maybe one or two made a deal with these theft charges and came clean on the LB and WM murders to reduce or void their charges? Maybe that's what DM meant by "he feels used" someone in gang betrayed him and broke the pact?

MOO

ETA: Forgot to post the rest of my thinking. So now we know AM was arrested for TB murder and released. Wonder why exactly the LE thought he was involved? So Im assuming his arrest was made before the farm was being looked at again in connection to LB. Makes ya wonder.....

 

[Abitcountry]

bbm: If there was a mortgage on the hangar, wonder if there was an insurance policy on the life of WM, just for that mortgage that should have been in place. It would seem odd to me given WM's experience that he would NOT have had mortgage insurance in place with his bank.

It is my understanding that mortgage insurance becomes extraordinarily expensive past the age of 65 and WM was about 73 at this time.......and even if WM had existing personal life insurance that he may have wanted to increase in order to cover the 3.7 million dollar mortgage, the premiums would likely have been staggering.

If there had been insurance in place, why would RBC have placed a lien on Millard properties following WM's death ?
It is more likely that WM had used property holdings as collateral when he first arranged his mortgage because he surely did not have a guaranteed personal income sufficient to cover the bank loan.....and so the bank simply redeemed the collateral that they were in possession of after his death.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Sorry I'm on a mobile device and this piece of info is buried in a very long post or I'd quote ...

MH called CrimeStoppers and turned in Mark Smich? I must have missed this day of testimony somehow.