Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #10

[CJPRINCESS]

Sorry I'm on a mobile device and this piece of info is buried in a very long post or I'd quote ...

MH called CrimeStoppers and turned in Mark Smich? I must have missed this day of testimony somehow.

Yes that's what he testified to. That MS may be the second suspect they are looking for.

 

[ABro]

Im thinking no due to publication bans. There could be other charges but we/public will not know untill after this trial.
ETA: Forgot to post the rest of my thinking. So now we know AM was arrested for TB murder and released. Wonder why exactly the LE thought he was involved? So Im assuming his arrest was made before the farm was being looked at again in connection to LB. Makes ya wonder.....

Publication bans do not stop the reporting that someone has been charged. They stop publication of the evidence. You simply cannot have people being charged in secret in a free society.

 

[deugirtni]

Without the force of the Bosma family and friends, I wonder about the effort that would have been put into this case by LE. LB's phone records of last calls to DM, didn't seem to trigger any investigative results the first time around.

They would have found DM and MS, but it would have been because of the Bosma army relentless pressure.

I have much respect for the Bosma's.

MOO

The Bosma clan definitely impacted the speed of this whole thing, but in regard to LE's investigative efforts, this was a different police force. Big city Toronto being asked to look for a missing young woman who had mental health issues, was potentially hooked on drugs, was perhaps somewhat estranged from her family, and was involved to some aspect in the sex trade... is nowhere near the same as the circumstances surrounding TB's case.

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry I'm on a mobile device and this piece of info is buried in a very long post or I'd quote ...

MH called CrimeStoppers and turned in Mark Smich? I must have missed this day of testimony somehow.

MH testified, when being grilled by TD, that he *had* in fact made somewhat of an effort to make a report to police.. by calling CS to offer up MS as the potential second suspect LE was seeking, and to also enlighten them about the Ayr property that DM owned. TD's response was.. ya.. CS.. which you can't prove that you called, since they don't keep that info. So.. who knows?

 

[Kamille]

Police may still have honed in on DM if they did tower dumps and isolated phones that were pinging the same towers at the same time as the Bate phone. (or have I been watching too many TV shows?)

It may have been as easy as surveilling or questioning Brendan Daly, another number called by the burner phone apparently? LE would have gotten photos of him hanging with MS and MS may have been the first suspect arrested, leading to DM. We've also got a positive ID by IT of MS from a photo line up.

The tattoo was most helpful in identifying the main suspect quickly and the one who was destroying and hiding evidence so it worked out much better that way. Identifying MS first and giving DM a few more days undetected might not have yielded as much evidence, he may just have been able to sucessfully hide the truck and other items. Then again, identifying DM right after an MS arrest and watching him move evidence might have been interesting as well.

Either way, I do think LE would have zeroed in on this pair eventually.

MOO

 

[Boudica]

Regarding the life insurance on WM. I use to work for a life insurance company. If I remember correctly, there is a suicide clause on a personal life insurance policy - meaning that if a suicide occurs in the first 2 years, nothing is paid out, after 2 years, the life insurance benefit is paid. This is a statutory benefit on personal life insurance policies in Canada.

However, creditors insurance is different and I think that nothing is paid if a suicide occurs, regardless of the time frame.

 

[billandrew]

It may have been as easy as surveilling or questioning Brendan Daly, another number called by the burner phone apparently? LE would have gotten photos of him hanging with MS and MS may have been the first suspect arrested, leading to DM. We've also got a positive ID by IT of MS from a photo line up.

The tattoo was most helpful in identifying the main suspect quickly and the one who was destroying and hiding evidence so it worked out much better that way. Identifying MS first and giving DM a few more days undetected might not have yielded as much evidence, he may just have been able to sucessfully hide the truck and other items. Then again, identifying DM right after an MS arrest and watching him move evidence might have been interesting as well.

Either way, I do think LE would have zeroed in on this pair eventually.

MOO

BBM. This is a misconception based on confusing testimony and reporting of that testimony. The Bate phone did not call Daly, his name just came up when they listed off the WIND Mobile phone accounts for which production orders were obtained in this case. Daly's phone records were likely obtained sometime after DM's (and possibly even MS's) arrest.

 

[Inspector_North]

The Bosma clan definitely impacted the speed of this whole thing, but in regard to LE's investigative efforts, this was a different police force. Big city Toronto being asked to look for a missing young woman who had mental health issues, was potentially hooked on drugs, was perhaps somewhat estranged from her family, and was involved to some aspect in the sex trade... is nowhere near the same as the circumstances surrounding TB's case.

I get that. However, it does take LE sometime to confirm the situation and to determine character of the victim. So did they go at LB's cell phone record with the same speed and tenacity when she was reported missing?

BTW, this is a response to a hypothetical question. My response to the question it that they would catch DM, and MS, and I attribute that conclusion to what I believe is a great family.

Abro said they moved quickly to get cell records, but those records were to a burner phone. Not sure how that addresses the hypothetical question.

 

[serenitynow123]

Without the force of the Bosma family and friends, I wonder about the effort that would have been put into this case by LE. LB's phone records of last calls to DM, didn't seem to trigger any investigative results the first time around.

They would have found DM and MS, but it would have been because of the Bosma army relentless pressure.

I have much respect for the Bosma's.

MOO

I remember reading that the very first person that Sb called when she was unable to reach TB and he hadn't returned home was a relative who is also a member of the police force. This probably made all the difference in getting the investigation off to a strong start.
This was mentioned back in the first TB Missing thread.

 

[Claroon]

But isn't believing that you can earn $100,000 a month through a life of crime delusional?

Yes, to us this idea of $100,000 through crime is more or less unrealistic unless he has a hefty price menu--$30,000 for murder, $50,000 for murder with cremation. $5,000 for theft of the object of your choice, add in a few fees for escorts... IMOO

The delusions of a psychopath or someone psychotic are far different. I've just come through 3 years of helping a family member with psychosis. I've been in meetings with the psychiatrist to understand it better. Psychotic delusions are when a person believes something like the mafia or CSIS or his own family members are out to get him, are following him, etc. and this person will express those thoughts, make false accusations, and even go on the run to avoid the offenders in the delusion. Unless those close to DM have seen that too, I'd put him in the category of sociopath instead. There is no effective treatment for sociopaths. MS is likely one as well. IMOO

 

[billandrew]

Regarding the life insurance on WM. I use to work for a life insurance company. If I remember correctly, there is a suicide clause on a personal life insurance policy - meaning that if a suicide occurs in the first 2 years, nothing is paid out, after 2 years, the life insurance benefit is paid. This is a statutory benefit on personal life insurance policies in Canada.

However, creditors insurance is different and I think that nothing is paid if a suicide occurs, regardless of the time frame.

On the topic of Wayne Millard, I found an interesting comment about him on another forum recently. It's probably been posted here before, but here it is again:

"I believe it may have been Carl's son that was fired from Air Canada (as a pilot) many, many moons ago, for having long hair...
And I believe he won a court case against Air Canada for that wrongful dismissal, not sure?
Maybe some of you remember more about that story, if indeed I have the right guy..."

Source: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/view...sid=8b83d4dc9a6aff4a96d282534f6e800f&start=25

 

[ABro]

I get that. However, it does take LE sometime to confirm the situation and to determine character of the victim. So did they go at LB's cell phone record with the same speed and tenacity when she was reported missing?

BTW, this is a response to a hypothetical question. My response to the question it that they would catch DM, and MS, and I attribute that conclusion to what I believe is a great family.

Abro said they moved quickly to get cell records, but those records were to a burner phone. Not sure how that addresses the hypothetical question.

FWIW I'm not at all sure how this investigation would have progressed without Igor's memory of the Ambition tattoo.

 

[Claroon]

On the topic of Wayne Millard, I found an interesting comment about him on another forum recently. It's probably been posted here before, but here it is again:

"I believe it may have been Carl's son that was fired from Air Canada (as a pilot) many, many moons ago, for having long hair...
And I believe he won a court case against Air Canada for that wrongful dismissal, not sure?
Maybe some of you remember more about that story, if indeed I have the right guy..."

Source: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/view...sid=8b83d4dc9a6aff4a96d282534f6e800f&start=25

I questioned the validity of the DelMillard post, but I think the use of the word "imparticular" gives him away. IMO lol

 

[Abitcountry]

It's the Weekend Discussion and an opportunity to tie up loose threads it seems. I found myself with a few personal questions on the topic of foreknowledge of a pending crime and the legal definitions of aiding and abetting, and accessory.
The internet led me to expand my search to the topic of 'parties to an offence' and that is when I hit "pay dirt".....the virtual everything you ever wanted to know from our own criminal code on the topics of.....aiding....abetting....counseling....procuring ....and accessory after the fact.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...%20an%20Offence.ppt+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

It is important and relevant information that will not disappoint ....and by reading what the criminal code specifically has to say for oneself, there is less likelihood that misinformation may be passed on through personal interpretation.

 

[billandrew]

Police may still have honed in on DM if they did tower dumps and isolated phones that were pinging the same towers at the same time as the Bate phone. (or have I been watching too many TV shows?)

This was a definite possibility, but rather than matching the Bate phone to another phone, a better method would have been to obtain cell tower dumps from the areas of TB's and Igor's homes around the times of the test drives and identify any numbers that showed up on both lists. The areas -- rural Ancaster and North York -- are sufficiently far apart that there should not have been many, if any, duplicates. This process would have identified DM's phone for sure. The phone activity presentation doesn't show any activity on MS's phone during the Igor test drive, so it may not have worked for his number.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Yes, to us this idea of $100,000 through crime is more or less unrealistic unless he has a hefty price menu--$30,000 for murder, $50,000 for murder with cremation. $5,000 for theft of the object of your choice, add in a few fees for escorts... IMOO

The delusions of a psychopath or someone psychotic are far different. I've just come through 3 years of helping a family member with psychosis. I've been in meetings with the psychiatrist to understand it better. Psychotic delusions are when a person believes something like the mafia or CSIS or his own family members are out to get him, are following him, etc. and this person will express those thoughts, make false accusations, and even go on the run to avoid the offenders in the delusion. Unless those close to DM have seen that too, I'd put him in the category of sociopath instead. There is no effective treatment for sociopaths. MS is likely one as well. IMOO

He could set whatever price he wanted: would people pay it, and how many people would have to know of his "menu" before one bit?

Delusions of grandeur (I'm a big crime boss) are also psychotic delusions. Some people are able to function quite well while living in a parallel world I think that's why it was such a shock to DM when he was arrested; his mental world came crashing down and reality interceded.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/delusions+of+grandeur

 

[Inspector_North]

FWIW I'm not at all sure how this investigation would have progressed without Igor's memory of the Ambition tattoo.

Thanks. According to everything I have heard, the only tip that could have been a starting point besides IT's memory, was AJ's call to CS.

 

[Arnie M]

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-21.html

Parties to offence

21 (1) Every one is a party to an offence who

(a) actually commits it;

(b) does or omits to do anything for the purpose of aiding any person to commit it; or

(c) abets any person in committing it.

Common intention

(2) Where two or more persons form an intention in common to carry out an unlawful purpose and to assist each other therein and any one of them, in carrying out the common purpose, commits an offence, each of them who knew or ought to have known that the commission of the offence would be a probable consequence of carrying out the common purpose is a party to that offence.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 21.

 

[qdm]

The main reason for me asking my question re the tatt and if he would have been caught otherwise is due to the public outcry of Police carding. I am not one who necessarily advocates for more police power especially over the general publics rights, but this is a fine example of how the carding system worked to help catch a very deadly individual. It also highlights that it is not just used against the African Canadians (although I can understand if they feel like they are the main targets).

Im glad DM was carded, I am still unsure how I feel about the process I guess...
imho

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dai...t-is--carding--and-is-it-legal-192840113.html

 

[SnooperDuper]

The main reason for me asking my question re the tatt and if he would have been caught otherwise is due to the public outcry of Police carding. I am not one who necessarily advocates for more police power especially over the general publics rights, but this is a fine example of how the carding system worked to help catch a very deadly individual. It also highlights that it is not just used against the African Canadians (although I can understand if they feel like they are the main targets).

Im glad DM was carded, I am still unsure how I feel about the process I guess...
imho

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dai...t-is--carding--and-is-it-legal-192840113.html

From that:

“We are not aware of a single example offered by the police of a case being solved due the carding database or the practice,” lawyer Vilko Zbogar, reached through Toronto’s Human Rights Legal Support Center, tells Yahoo! “The police service has never presented any empirical evidence to the Board that shows that carding has made communities safer, even though advocacy groups have repeatedly asked for such evidence.”

I wonder if DM will now be the poster boy for the pro-carding argument?