Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #11

[Sillybilly]

Websleuths tries to deal with FACTS, so please base discussion on facts that can be sourced/linked to credible sources (i.e. LE, MSM, pressers, testimony).

Please refrain from theories, gut feel, wild speculation that can't be supported by known fact. Sure, anything is possible, but is it probable based on the known facts and evidence?

 

[Inspector_North]

It's also probable that somebody called Smich to notify him of Millard's arrest. It was Millard's right to make a phone call as soon as possible after he was arrested, and he could have instructed whoever he called (such as his lawyer or mother) to notify Smich and others like Noudga. Noudga's last attempts to reach Millard that evening -- that we know about -- were a text ("call me") at 9:10pm followed by a phone call at 9:12pm. Since there was nothing after that, we could infer that she was notified of Millard's arrest shortly after.

True, but that would make her claim of hearing it on the news, and asking him about it untrue. That is exactly what I was hoping would not have happened. It would destroy her credibility about asking him to turn himself in, or that she advised them of their stupidity, and everything else she claimed she did to do the right thing. Especially his response to her seeing the news and claiming he grabbed her phone to start the chain reaction of events. Pretty sure she would remember someone contacting her at her sister's house to speak to MS, or a text on her phone for MS about the arrest.

Your point about CN stopping to try to reach DM is very good. It however makes MM questionable. Not a good thing for the Crown.

MOO

She found out Millard was arrested when she saw a picture on the news.
by Adam Carter 11:58 AM

Meneses says at that point she knew about Bosma's disappearance.
by Adam Carter 11:58 AM

She says she had discussed the theft of the truck with Smich, but he didn't tell her who the truck belonged to or where they stole it from.
by Adam Carter 11:59 AM

"I freaked out, and I was like, 'why is your friend on the news, and why is he arrested for that?'" she says. He said: "I don't know, I wasn't really around him, he did everything, he did everything" ... and he was like 'oh ****' and grabbed my phone and started phoning people."
by Adam Carter 12:00 PM

She says Smich told her he was using her phone to get drugs out of Millard's house. "He got someone to come bring them to him."
by Adam Carter 12:01 PM

 

[hellkat2]

I will see what I can do with regards to assisting with this BASINGA moment...re heard it on the news. Perhaps my googling will astound.

[video=youtube;5AtiNM8QdyA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AtiNM8QdyA[/video]
I don't see how there was anything that was on the news on May 12th..

 

[Jen Darme]

True, but that would make her claim of hearing it on the news, and asking him about it untrue. That is exactly what I was hoping would not have happened. It would destroy her credibility about asking him to turn himself in, or that she advised them of their stupidity, and everything else she claimed she did to do the right thing. Especially his response to her seeing the news and claiming he grabbed her phone to start the chain reaction of events. Pretty sure she would remember someone contacting her at her sister's house to speak to MS, or a text on her phone for MS about the arrest.

Your point about CN stopping to try to reach DM is very good. It however makes MM questionable. Not a good thing for the Crown.

MOO

She found out Millard was arrested when she saw a picture on the news.
by Adam Carter 11:58 AM

Meneses says at that point she knew about Bosma's disappearance.
by Adam Carter 11:58 AM

She says she had discussed the theft of the truck with Smich, but he didn't tell her who the truck belonged to or where they stole it from.
by Adam Carter 11:59 AM

"I freaked out, and I was like, 'why is your friend on the news, and why is he arrested for that?'" she says. He said: "I don't know, I wasn't really around him, he did everything, he did everything" ... and he was like 'oh ****' and grabbed my phone and started phoning people."
by Adam Carter 12:00 PM

She says Smich told her he was using her phone to get drugs out of Millard's house. "He got someone to come bring them to him."
by Adam Carter 12:01 PM

Perhaps one of the people MS phoned was CN, who either called MB or (had just) heard from MB (or the lawyer), while MM connected MS's burst of activity only with what she'd seen, probably the tattoos on tv which blurred into the news of the arrest the next day. From AC's tweets:

Day 34, AM's testimony (BBM, Friday = May 10):

Michalski says he first found out something was up with Millard when Smich called him on Friday night.
"He said that they got Dell, and that I should get all of the drugs out of his house, Michalski says Smich said when he called him
"He was quite panicked," Michalski says.

Day 32, MH's testimony:

"On May 11, I woke up to a bunch of missed messages from Andrew Michalski, he told me Dellen had been arrested."
"That Dellen had given him something and that he knew Dellen had given me something as well,"
Hagerman says he had to send his phone in to be fixed, then says "what's the situation crustation? (sic)"
Michalski responds: "We have a situation! I need to meet you at your park today."

The only structure in MM's life seemed to be her job and the days she worked, so other days probably blurred together.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I think DM's D is going to try to prove that MS regularly lied to MM, not that MM lied.

DM thought MM was a child and probably encouraged MS to keep her out of the loop. MS probably regularly lied about his whereabouts to her, and DM would know that.

 

[leafs_fan93]

I've looked back at both old news articles, as well as old posts on the forum from the evening of May 10th, and am unable to find even any mention about the arrest of an unknown suspect, nevermind anything about Dellen Millard specifically. I am fairly confident that we would have been discussing it here the second it was on any MSM outlet.

There is a hole in MMs testimony somewhere. While the physical evidence in the way of phone records corroborate her story(MS calling AM then AM contacting MH to get the drugs and gun together for AM) her saying they heard about DMs arrest on TV makes zero sense to me. Either she's remembering incorrectly, or worse, she's hiding something else.

We've already seen Dungey in action - if he finds any holes in her story he will tear her apart. Her testimony is literally the only thing that has given enough information to convict MS IMO. If TD can paint her as an unreliable witness, I'm afraid he may see MS end up with a lesser charge. I've said it over and over that her testimony will make or break the case against MS. I just pray it makes it tomorrow, and not the latter.

All MOO.

 

[hellkat2]

True, but that would make her claim of hearing it on the news, and asking him about it untrue. That is exactly what I was hoping would not have happened. It would destroy her credibility about asking him to turn himself in, or that she advised them of their stupidity, and everything else she claimed she did to do the right thing. Especially his response to her seeing the news and claiming he grabbed her phone to start the chain reaction of events. Pretty sure she would remember someone contacting her at her sister's house to speak to MS, or a text on her phone for MS about the arrest.

Your point about CN stopping to try to reach DM is very good. It however makes MM questionable. Not a good thing for the Crown.

MOO

She found out Millard was arrested when she saw a picture on the news.
by Adam Carter 11:58 AM

Meneses says at that point she knew about Bosma's disappearance.
by Adam Carter 11:58 AM

She says she had discussed the theft of the truck with Smich, but he didn't tell her who the truck belonged to or where they stole it from.
by Adam Carter 11:59 AM

"I freaked out, and I was like, 'why is your friend on the news, and why is he arrested for that?'" she says. He said: "I don't know, I wasn't really around him, he did everything, he did everything" ... and he was like 'oh ****' and grabbed my phone and started phoning people."
by Adam Carter 12:00 PM

She says Smich told her he was using her phone to get drugs out of Millard's house. "He got someone to come bring them to him."
by Adam Carter 12:01 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-millard-arrested-at-gunpoint-1.3438856

This makes mention of the arrest of DM in the evening of the 10th. so.....there is no way she heard of the arrest on the news.

 

[Inspector_North]

In concern to MM and MS. According to Adam Carter on April 21, MM testified:

"She says she hasn't talked to Smich since he was arrested, and they're no longer together. #TimBosma #Bosma"[/COLOR]

Yet, in Jan/15, we hear that MS has been charged for breaching his recognizance in spring/summer of 2014 for making contact with MM.

"Documents filed with the courthouse in Etobicoke say the alleged breach of recognizance happened between April 10 and July 31 of last year while Smich was in custody at the Toronto West Detention Centre."

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5262706-co-accused-in-bosma-murder-case-faces-new-charge/

Could be that it was a one sided communication from MS to MM and went straight to LE. She says in her testimony that she hasn't "spoken to him", not that she hasn't had contact with him. IMO, if it was in concern to the LB case it may be off limits with this one. I'm curious if P & S are going to bring this "communication" up tomorrow. MOO

Another ? for MM's credibility. Hopefully this will be addressed if they did have contact. Otherwise it's most likely an attempt to contact. MOO

 

[Inspector_North]

This makes mention of the arrest of DM in the evening of the 10th. so.....there is no way she heard of the arrest on the news.

Seems that way, but until there is proof either way, MM's testimony is questionable IMO. I know Abro mentioned that it most likely will be addressed if this is important. However, I am putting my juror hat on and believe it is. Folks like Abro are very knowledgeable of trials, and most likely has some additional clues by attending in person, or sitting through three days of CN's bail hearing. Even the jurors have an advantage of court room chemistry and tone of testimony, and they should. Something that may be putting me at a disadvantage in determining importance. MOO

 

[billandrew]

In concern to MM and MS. According to Adam Carter on April 21, MM testified:

"She says she hasn't talked to Smich since he was arrested, and they're no longer together. #TimBosma #Bosma"[/COLOR]

RSBM. I like how just after she said that she added, "The day he got arrested I just figured why bother still being with him."

 

[mimimic]

I can imagine them sitting there seeing the news where they showed pics of possible ambition tattoos and MS even freaked out saying OMG 'Dell'!! and MM immediately would assume that too if she knew of the tattoo which she probably did and in the shock of the moment has morphed the scene into seeing his 'picture'. Regardless I think strongly it was the tattoo in the news and probably MS reaction to that, followed by a tip from MB or CN. Remember, these people will all be paranoid about whether they got away with the crime or not. Any public tid bit of info could be enough to tip them over the edge into complete panic as they realize their scheme will come crashing down any moment. For all we know they may have been following online in FB or even WS what was transpiring. I recall all sorts of rumours going around social media at that time, its possible there was a clue there. IIRC there was that cryptic message in Russian or Yugoslavian about 'tell the wolf they got the farm', remember that? ALL MOO

So now i am more curious on this, was there any discussion here on WS at the time when this was discovered ? if so did the majority feel it was a message to DM (as the wolf) or another?

 

[matou]

RSBM. I like how just after she said that she added, "The day he got arrested I just figured why bother still being with him."

Another quote I read has HER saying "The day I got arrested...."

She said hasn't spoken to Smich since his arrest in 2013.
"The day I got arrested, I just figured why even bother still being with him," she said. Meneses was arrested alongside Smich, but was never charged.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-trial-marlena-meneses-1.3546677

 

[SnooperDuper]

So now i am more curious on this, was there any discussion here on WS at the time when this was discovered ? if so did the majority feel it was a message to DM (as the wolf) or another?

Yes, there was a discussion; it was a hoax.

 

[Elisabeth]

I stopped thinking so hard about MM saying she saw DM on the news on the 10th when it turned out another witness (was it JV?) said the same thing. Or has this been disproven?

CN tried to contact DM. Once she couldn't get through, she might have drawn the correct conclusion that he was arrested and raised the alarm. I believe MM saw the arrest the next day on tv and the panic and horror blended things together. I for one don't believe it taints her testimony about their celebratory mood on picking her up early on the 7th. But I have not been in the courtroom to see her myself.

Did MM specifically say that seeing the arrest on tv led MS to calling AM? (yes) Was she there when MS called AM? (yes but we don't know which specific calls )

 

[Elisabeth]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-millard-arrested-at-gunpoint-1.3438856

This makes mention of the arrest of DM in the evening of the 10th. so.....there is no way she heard of the arrest on the news.

MS's series of calls to AM continued on the Saturday after the news conference (at noon, no?). Could the MS-
AM Sat afternoon calls be the calls that she is referring to when she says "he....grabbed my phone and started phoning people".

The arrest was confirmed and MS's panic ratcheted up?

that would work, no?

 

[matou]

Apple's co-operation with police in Tim Bosma case not unusual
Apple unlocked iPhone 4s of one of the accused and sent data back to investigators

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/bosma-apple-iphone-security-1.3548481

 

[matou]

Wasn't MM asked by DM to be a lookout on a previous mission?

 

[deugirtni]

Just wondering..........................

Is it possible that (virtually) everyone is getting mixed up on their days?

Friday, May 10, 2013 - early hours - CN and DM are busy hiding: trailer with TB's truck inside, moving incinerator to the trees, he's giving her the DVR for safekeeping, they're delivering a locked toolbox to MH's house...

Friday, May 10 - cops show up at the hangar; there is a meeting at the hangar; AJ gets fired; SS take DM and his red truck to his friend's house to hide it;

Friday, May 10 - DM is arrested around dinnertime while in transit; apparently he is interrogated for... I forget how many hours? 24 hours?

Saturday, May 11 - AM works along with RB at Campbell's; he sees the TV in the lunchroom that DM has been arrested for forcible confinement and theft of TB's truck, he shares the info with RB.

-discrepancies:

-MM says she saw it on TV on Friday evening that DM had been arrested; apparently Mr. V also saw it on TV... yet.. no news reports can be found at ALL any earlier than May 11th; some news reports still report the arrest as having happened ON May 11th, and not the 10th.

-AM says that MS called him on Friday evening saying DM had been arrested and that is how he found out, but yet he also says that he found out at work the next day that he was charged with forcible confinement/theft of TB's truck; he says MS told him to get all of the drugs out of the house; he puts them in his car and drives around, and then parks it overnight on the street;

-AM says Maple Gate was stormed by police on Saturday morning, but yet AM was supposed to have been at work, so how does he know?

-AM calls MH and tells him they have to get together to drop off the drugs to MS; They supposedly did this on the Saturday, but yet AM was working on the Saturday at Campbell's.

-MH says he worked late Friday night and into early Saturday, went home to bed, and when he woke up later on Saturday, he awoke to a bunch of texts from AM saying DM had been arrested and they have to get together, etc. (But meanwhile.. AM is supposedly at work at Campbell's)

-AM says he spoke with MB on the 11th (Saturday), and she and CN came to his father's house to pick up Pedo;

-doesn't it seem like AM had a TERRIBLY busy day on Saturday the 11th, if the house got stormed, he was at work all day, he got together with MH to drop off drugs at a location for MS, he got together with MB to pick up Pedo?

-is it possible that these people are saying they found out on the 10th, but really it was the 11th when they found out? That is the day it hit the news. is it possible Maple Gate got searched on the 12th, vs the 11th?

Just a thought....... ??

 

[Jen Darme]

Wasn't MM asked by DM to be a lookout on a previous mission?

There was at least an indirect invite through MS. I don't recall any indication she participated or another instance, but didn't search further. From AC on April 18, testimony of a detective re: phones and msg content:

A message from Millard to Say 10 in Oct 2012, asking "mission tonight?"
Continues: "If marlena and Arthur are down to come, would be nice to have spotters."

 

[Georgeo]

Just wondering..........................

Is it possible that (virtually) everyone is getting mixed up on their days?

Friday, May 10, 2013 - early hours - CN and DM are busy hiding: trailer with TB's truck inside, moving incinerator to the trees, he's giving her the DVR for safekeeping, they're delivering a locked toolbox to MH's house...

Friday, May 10 - cops show up at the hangar; there is a meeting at the hangar; AJ gets fired; SS take DM and his red truck to his friend's house to hide it;

Friday, May 10 - DM is arrested around dinnertime while in transit; apparently he is interrogated for... I forget how many hours? 24 hours?

Saturday, May 11 - AM works along with RB at Campbell's; he sees the TV in the lunchroom that DM has been arrested for forcible confinement and theft of TB's truck, he shares the info with RB.

-discrepancies:

-MM says she saw it on TV on Friday evening that DM had been arrested; apparently Mr. V also saw it on TV... yet.. no news reports can be found at ALL any earlier than May 11th; some news reports still report the arrest as having happened ON May 11th, and not the 10th.

-AM says that MS called him on Friday evening saying DM had been arrested and that is how he found out, but yet he also says that he found out at work the next day that he was charged with forcible confinement/theft of TB's truck; he says MS told him to get all of the drugs out of the house; he puts them in his car and drives around, and then parks it overnight on the street;

-AM says Maple Gate was stormed by police on Saturday morning, but yet AM was supposed to have been at work, so how does he know?

-AM calls MH and tells him they have to get together to drop off the drugs to MS; They supposedly did this on the Saturday, but yet AM was working on the Saturday at Campbell's.

-MH says he worked late Friday night and into early Saturday, went home to bed, and when he woke up later on Saturday, he awoke to a bunch of texts from AM saying DM had been arrested and they have to get together, etc. (But meanwhile.. AM is supposedly at work at Campbell's)

-AM says he spoke with MB on the 11th (Saturday), and she and CN came to his father's house to pick up Pedo;

-doesn't it seem like AM had a TERRIBLY busy day on Saturday the 11th, if the house got stormed, he was at work all day, he got together with MH to drop off drugs at a location for MS, he got together with MB to pick up Pedo?

-is it possible that these people are saying they found out on the 10th, but really it was the 11th when they found out? That is the day it hit the news. is it possible Maple Gate got searched on the 12th, vs the 11th?

Just a thought....... ??

. Sounds like a lot of errors in memory, from a lot of friends of DM. Why would they all lie the same? Saying they saw arrest on Friday night news. What is to gain by saying that?