Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[hellkat2]

Yep, this one bugs me. It seems like it would have been smarter to have him lie in wait ...

UNLESS they thought they was some chance TB would be alone at his home and had planned to kill him there. But since DM had already described him as the "nice guy", it seems that he must have had some impression of Tim as a family man.

(Which leads to an unrelated question: how DID DM form his description of TB as "the nice guy"? Just his general demeanor on the phone?)

Edit: oh I forgot--it could also be that they thought it would look more suspicious to just have one guy walking up the driveway with no car than two.

Jeez, on that note, why hide the Yukon at all? Why not just say "my friend here will follow us to Tim Horton's and pick me up there"?

I assume after they had their ride with the Russian dude anybody would be referred to as "the nice guy". I think they did not want to take the chance of anyone taking their license plate down.

 

[slowsleuthy]

I don't know what "keep 6" means, but are you saying he wanted to be in on the part where they met Tim's wife, etc? Because by their accounts he was pretty damned nervous when he was there.

he definitely would've been sweating a bit meeting Tim's wife and the tenant, no doubt about that, cuz they could ID him now.

 

[ArianeEmory]

if i say to my buddy that i got your 6, i really mean that i'm watching your back, make sense now? its gang slang really.

Well, I can't deny MS was a wannabe gangster, but so far I remain unconvinced of the existence of a second gun. I don't think MS could afford $1200 for one, for starters.

(I know all about the piece of testimony that implies MS had his own gun. It's my opinion that's garbled/hearsay, and not on the same level as the proof of DM's illegal gun purchase. And after the fact, we only heard about MS trying to sell ONE gun for lawyer money.)

The point about them not wanting the Yukon's plates to be seen does make sense, in terms of hiding the Yukon, I didn't think about that. I suppose that would be true whether murder or theft was the plan. Surprised DM didn't just steal some random person's plates.

 

[ArianeEmory]

... In general, one thing I've determined as we focus on the first 15 minutes of the abduction, is that I can't really understand what their plan was SUPPOSED to be, regardless of whether it was intended as murder or just theft. They made a lot of very strange/stupid choices.

 

[Arnie M]

It's wasn't clear to me when DM pulled the u-turn (as per posts here I was getting confused) From the tweet order, it sounds like the U-turn was done on Book rd. So this U-turn didn't happen at Super Sucker unless Super Sucker is before Book rd.

ETA: so if Bullman is correct and both Yukon and TB truck DID pull out of the field, MS'S is not truthful on this part either (Unless MS considers that a U-turn) The Yukon had pretty dark tinted windows. So TB probably wouldn't have seen anyone anyways. But something just seems a bit off here as well. Unless Bullman thought both trucks pulled out of the field but it was just the Yukon and TB truck just did the U-turn.

It's easier to visualize this from the descriptions when you've been there, I think. MS originally said they parked the Yukon on the side of the road (Book Road) and walked over to Bosma's. Then he says that after explaining about the "friend" dropping them off and going to Tim Horton's, DM "drove to the end of the street."
.

Trying to be brief so I just snipped tiny bits .... especially palisadesk's excellent lengthy post (I really like both the posts and the logic) (thanks)

I want you guys to think of this (the U-turn topic)

Bullman .... the neighbor who saw both vehicles leave the hayfield .... which is on Book Road .... also said they crossed Trinity and continued West on Book Road

.... I am wondering if it was down Book road where the U-Turn happened (that Mark mentioned)
.... that would fit with Bullman testimony
.... that would fit with SS video of them eventually heading north on Trinity
.... that would fit with MS saying they made a U-Turn somewhere

 

[Typhoo1961]

Thanks. Ravin Pillay. Let's hope he asks the right questions.

I might be wrong about this but I don't recall him asking the questions. He seems to have the other lawyer do the work instead.

 

[brightii]

Well, I can't deny MS was a wannabe gangster, but so far I remain unconvinced of the existence of a second gun. I don't think MS could afford $1200 for one, for starters.

(I know all about the piece of testimony that implies MS had his own gun. It's my opinion that's garbled/hearsay, and not on the same level as the proof of DM's illegal gun purchase. And after the fact, we only heard about MS trying to sell ONE gun for lawyer money.)

The point about them not wanting the Yukon's plates to be seen does make sense, in terms of hiding the Yukon, I didn't think about that. I suppose that would be true whether murder or theft was the plan. Surprised DM didn't just steal some random person's plates.

For me, when andreww suggested that MS can't say what happened to the gun or recall where he buried it is because there were two guns in the toolbox, that made total sense. MS need never have owned a gun to have used one. Maybe DM had two guns and let MS carry one on the night TB was murdered?

All MOO.

 

[ArianeEmory]

There used to be a poster (Otto?) who would put together case maps from google maps. If anyone would be willing to draw out what you all are talking about on a map screenshot, it would probably be immensely helpful. Both to non locals like me, and to people who are bad at visualizing written directions, also like me.

 

[ABro]

From DM's letters to CN he seems to indicate excitement that AM may have decided to help DM after all, IMO. See page 89 at the link. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-trial-noudga-testimony-1.3561968#letters


"Kodiak and Snogg both went back for more interviews. Idiots! I haven't had a chance to watch the entire videos. My interviews aren't that long. I did skip through quickly though, and it looks like Kodiak is changing his statement. It's a whole lotta, 'I can't remembers', and "I really don't know' s. This is great news! It shows he is willing to help. If the entire video is like that, it will fit together even better than before, with what I need him to say. If you see that bear over the holidays, tell him that I love him."

I believe CN did succeed in getting messages to AM. I also believe that AM heard DM speak not only about a planned truck theft which AM finally admitted, but possibly of a planned murder because AM's response of F-off seemed way out if proportion to me and some others here as well.

When DM asked AM who he should steal the truck from - the a-hole or the nice guy - why was AM so alarmed when in the past regarding DM's planned theft missions AM was not alarmed? Also DM had mentioned to AM in texts that missions were going to become more dangerous and AM did not say in response F-off, AM replied that he was in. I am not convinced that AM didn't know more, but I can see why he would only tell what he had to tell to police, to help himself, and to whatever degree he could, to help DM. Had AM also mentioned that DM talked about a planned murder, he would have proven the pre-meditation aspect of the case, IMO, and he did not. That could be because the conversation didn't happen as I think it did, but IF it did happen the way I think it did, AM was protecting DM as much as he could without getting himself into more trouble, IMO.

All MOO.

For some reason you appear to have a need to see AM as a villain, much like, until recently, you wanted to see MS as a victim. In both cases you've made up facts to support your characterizations. This time round it's secret meetings between AM and CN.

I don't have time to go through your post and rebut it point by point, but I think you've completely misread the "eff off" comment. It wasn't AM being alarmed. It was AM being a non-analytical jock, which is what he is. Frankly, if you see him in that light, it pretty much explains all his actions. He's not going to come up with some super complex plan which involves giving damning testimony about DM on subjects X, Y and Z only to help him out on the toolbox. This is AM we're talking about not Machiavelli.

Finally, I get that not everyone has to share my view of AM, so fine if you think the guy's a jerk and lying. But honestly when you have -to make up secret meetings with CN to support your POV, isn't it a sign that maybe, just maybe, you should reconsider?

ETA: Finally, I do want to say that I admire how you've changed your views. IMO people don't do that enough. I had little good to say about AM until I saw him on the stand. He was extremely respectful to everyone in court from the cops to all the lawyers, dressed properly FWIW, and had his mother, aunt and brother there to support him.

 

[ArianeEmory]

For me, when andreww suggested that MS can't say what happened to the gun or recall where he buried it is because there were two guns in the toolbox, that made total sense. MS need never have owned a gun to have used one. Maybe DM had two guns and let MS carry one on the night TB was murdered?

All MOO.

I suppose it's possible, but it doesn't ring true for me. We have testimony about him frantically trying to hide, and then sell, ONE gun. He had to have known he was on LE's radar; I can't imagine him trying to sell one and keep the other, especially when he had no permanent home, his mode of transport was a bike, and his best idea for hiding a weapon was inside a washing machine.

 

[canadiangirl]

It should have been put back on after she was finished testifying. If one believes what she says on her instagram, it wasn't.

She since removed the comment

 

[Arnie M]

I do wonder how the scoping mission with TB's truck was supposed to happen if it was just a scoping mission?

1) They park next door and walk to TB's
2) They go on a test drive and return to TB's
3) They say something about still looking at others like they told IV and walk back to the Yukon?

I would assume TB would have been questioning why their "imaginary friend" didn't pick them up. The only reason DM would need MS on the test drive is if they planned on taking it at that time. In fact both not being on the test drive would be more realistic compared to bringing along a shady character wearing a hoodie.

For IV, being in an urban business area, the walk up/walk away test drive was not that unbelievable compared to doing it in a rural area.

MOO

May 5 4:49 pm Millard texts Noudga: "no go today, I will be around later if you want to chill, let me know what you're saying."

According to MS, they were only scoping, and would return late at night to steal. Strange that DM would decide the mission was a "no go" at this time.

also

May 5 5:00 to 5:30 pm Millard tells Michalski about test drive, that they didn't steal truck b/c Smich was sick. Smich also there during convo.

Again, an indication that the theft mission was not to wait until dark.

MOO

Yes and Yes

I think you nailed it .... nothing about scope now - steal later passes the smell test.

 

[Jen Darme]

if i say to my buddy that i got your 6, i really mean that i'm watching your back, make sense now? its gang slang really.

It originated in World War I from fighter pilots' use of clock positions according to Got Your 6, a veterans support organization.

 

[Typhoo1961]

There used to be a poster (Otto?) who would put together case maps from google maps. If anyone would be willing to draw out what you all are talking about on a map screenshot, it would probably be immensely helpful. Both to non locals like me, and to people who are bad at visualizing written directions, also like me.

I'm not good at doing that sort of thing but I am having the exact same thoughts as you are. I know the general area because I live close by but because I don't drive I'm horrible at recalling where all the roads and places are.

 

[palisadesk]

I want you guys to think of this (the U-turn topic)

Bullman .... the neighbor who saw both vehicles leave the hayfield .... which is on Book Road .... also said they crossed Trinity and continued West on Book Road

.... I am wondering if it was down Book road where the U-Turn happened (that Mark mentioned)
.... that would fit with Bullman testimony
.... that would fit with SS video of them eventually heading north on Trinity
.... that would fit with MS saying they made a U-Turn somewhere

I puzzled over that, too -- the fact that Bullman reported they crossed Trinity and continued west on Book Rd.

I don't think they made any "U turns" over there, though. The road is not well lit, they would have to make 3-point turns, or use a driveway to back in and turn around. The Yukon might make a U-turn, the RAM, I don't think so. Pretty risky, as there are ditches along both sides of the road. That's why I don't pull over to use the phone over there!

So I wondered if Bullman might simply have been mistaken, and if so, why? Where he was walking his dog was east of the entrance to the field (opposite direction from Trinity Rd.), and depending where exactly he was standing, he might not have had a clear view of the intersection and beyond. The property is fairly heavily treed, especially the lot to the west of his house (he might own that lot, I don't know, but it's not a clear lawn like his front yard is). He saw them pull out of the entrance to the field and turn towards Trinity, where there's a stop sign. Traffic is variable, but I'm sure they stopped, as cross traffic can be very fast-moving (country wanna-be dragsters abound).

Now, good drivers would be signalling a turn if they wanted to go north on Trinity. I don't think we automatically lump DM and MS into the "good driver" category. So if they stopped at the interesection, and did not signal a turn, Bullman might have assumed, without much conscious thought, that they were continuing west on Book, and he may not have been able to see the actual turn if he was blocked by trees.

I did wonder, earlier on, if in fact they went west on Book and turned around down there someplace and came back, but I don't think that even if they did this, it was the U-turn that MS was referring to. Also, if they were bumbling around in the dark on a side road, this would have made TB suspicious, or at least worried they were going to run his truck into a ditch.

If MS's story is correct, I think the U-turn had to occur on Book Rd. east of Trinity, in the field entrance/flattened out area, or if the entrance didn't have a chain across it, no reason the RAM couldn't have pulled all the way in and turned around and come out, perhaps with the Yukon following, and their exit was what Bullman saw.

 

[ABro]

I assume after they had their ride with the Russian dude anybody would be referred to as "the nice guy". I think they did not want to take the chance of anyone taking their license plate down.

Aw c'mon, Igor knew the difference between an Indiana Jones satchel and a Hangover man bag. I think he'd be fun in a vodka bar.

 

[Claroon]

For me, when andreww suggested that MS can't say what happened to the gun or recall where he buried it is because there were two guns in the toolbox, that made total sense. MS need never have owned a gun to have used one. Maybe DM had two guns and let MS carry one on the night TB was murdered?

All MOO.

I was trying to do calculations but I eventually decided it was pointless due to variables. Here's what I was thinking...

MH said the toolbox was 4-5 pounds with contents. The Walther is lightweight, about a pound. I'm unsure of the toolbox model to know its weight. One toolbox model is 2 lb. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanley-16In-Toolbox-1-92-065/dp/B0001IWARW so that takes it to 3 lbs. I think all MS said was in it was a cloth--unlikely to be heavy . Didn't say if anything else was in it.

So makes me think 2nd gun if it was 5 pounds more or less.

 

[Claroon]

I'm not sure of the obsession with where the u-turn occurred, etc. nor the obsession about the video at Super Sucker. There must be better holes to be found. IMO.

 

[mimimic]

For some reason you appear to have a need to see AM as a villain, much like, until recently, you wanted to see MS as a victim. In both cases you've made up facts to support your characterizations. This time round it's secret meetings between AM and CN.

I don't have time to go through your post and rebut it point by point, but I think you've completely misread the "eff off" comment. It wasn't AM being alarmed. It was AM being a non-analytical jock, which is what he is. Frankly, if you see him in that light, it pretty much explains all his actions. He's not going to come up with some super complex plan which involves giving damning testimony about DM on subjects X, Y and Z only to help him out on the toolbox. This is AM we're talking about not Machiavelli.

Finally, I get that not everyone has to share my view of AM, so fine if you think the guy's a jerk and lying. But honestly when you have -to make up secret meetings with CN to support your POV, isn't it a sign that maybe, just maybe, you should reconsider?

ETA: Finally, I do want to say that I admire how you've changed your views. IMO people don't do that enough. I had little good to say about AM until I saw him on the stand. He was extremely respectful to everyone in court from the cops to all the lawyers, dressed properly FWIW, and had his mother, aunt and brother there to support him.

I think AM took a long time to be a saint with the truth.So this guesses may come with wondering and looking for the secret person DM wanted CN to help change their words. In looking past brighttii's guess on "alarm" from AM and possibly just see it as a changed testimony.

 

[canadiangirl]

I missed where you peeps saw it?

I'm way behind but the pic is on Instagram. Sorry if it's been addressed