Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #15

[Claroon]

Indeed. If, as he claims, he saw DM get out of the truck and put his gun into his purse, then he couldn't have seen TB with his head on the dash. In spite of Princess' photographic proof it's possible to sit like that, bless her heart, there are so many problems with MS' story that I can't believe any of it.

A RAM is a big truck. From MS' standpoint, and in the dark, how could MS see that the passenger was slumped over? He could not see that. He wouldn't be able to see anything in the passenger seat unless he walked around the two trucks that were parked closely together and opened the passenger door.

Then, it's a leap of gigantic proportion to assume that the passenger was shot. Why not assume that he was tying his shoes, or resting his aching back, or whatever a normal person might think. Shot?! Why would he think that? He couldn't see a wound since that wouldn't be visible from where MS stood. He wouldn't see blood spatter since it was dark.

And, not to belabour the point that the dash is too far forward in the truck to rest one's head against, even if that is remotely possible, TB would have had to set the seat in the farthest forward position, which is unlikely, and then stretched forward in order to precariously balance on the edge of the dash. I don't accept MS' story.

BBM That would be an interesting test. Next time I see a RAM I hope to see what can be seen without opening the door. I would assume he had seen the gun in DM's hand and when he saw the window smashed he put 2&2 together. There was significant spatter found on the dash.

"He testified that there was almost certainly an attempt to clean up heavy, smudged bloodstains found on the dash near a power outlet.
'It was probably the only area where I could [concretely] see there was cleanup, and it appeared there was an area of more blood,' Jones said." http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-trial-bloodletting-event-happened-inside-truck-expert-says-1.3479265

"Bloodstains found on the glove box. The front cup holder. The dashboard. On the rear passenger arm rest." https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/03/01/blood-in-truck-most-likely-tim-bosmas-expert-tells-murder-trial.html

 

[rmoeller]

I have a RAM. If you have questions, I will happily answer them for you ☺

BBM That would be an interesting test. Next time I see a RAM I hope to see what can be seen without opening the door. I would assume he had seen the gun in DM's hand and when he saw the window smashed he put 2&2 together. There was significant spatter found on the dash.

"He testified that there was almost certainly an attempt to clean up heavy, smudged bloodstains found on the dash near a power outlet.
'It was probably the only area where I could [concretely] see there was cleanup, and it appeared there was an area of more blood,' Jones said." http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-trial-bloodletting-event-happened-inside-truck-expert-says-1.3479265

"Bloodstains found on the glove box. The front cup holder. The dashboard. On the rear passenger arm rest." https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/03/01/blood-in-truck-most-likely-tim-bosmas-expert-tells-murder-trial.html

 

[Typhoo1961]

Do you have verifiable evidence? I was looking online for some.

I could not find any verifiable evidence myself but it was discussed here a lot during Penner's testimony.

 

[lanman]

I'm trying to look at this case as a juror would. Posters sometimes mention the LB and WM cases. As a juror, that cannot have any influence on my decision. The charge against both DM and MS is first degree murder. There are four elements that need to be met for me to arrive at that decision.

1. that DM and MS committed an unlawful act;
2. that DM and MS's unlawful act caused TB's death;
3. that DM and MS had the intent required for murder; and
4. that DM and MS’s murder of TB was both planned and deliberate.

Here is a link to an example of what a judge might say when instructing a jury in a case of first degree murder. I found this very interesting especially the comprehensive explanations of each element.

https://www.nji-inm.ca/index.cfm/pu...-murder-planned-and-deliberate/?langSwitch=en

Nice find...there is also one there for "First Degree Murder in the Commission of Another Offence".

https://www.nji-inm.ca/index.cfm/publications/model-jury-instructions/homicide/

 

[Georgeo]

Such excellent points, and so well stated.

Summary is very believable and probably very close to what actually happened. I believe they are both equally guilty and should both spend the rest of their lives in prison.

To turn on one another at this point just makes them both look even guiltier. Neither one ran to the police to claim he was innocent and their friend freaked out and turned into a lunatic. Both would have kept the secret and wouldn't have had any trouble with their conscience or "doing what's right" and giving Tim's family the truth.

Once caught, MS's "don't tell them anything, babe", stays in my mind; not the statement of an innocent person.

DM's jailhouse letters totally show he would do whatever is needed to BEAT THE CHARGE of first degree murder. Not once did he say he was innocent of murder, just that he would need to beat the charges. Interesting choice of words.....

These two are guilty, their actions before, during and after the murder clearly show this. Innocent people don't behave this way....

Just MOO.

 

[Claroon]

The identity of the N******s was explicitly stated in court. They were Tim Bosma's friends. That's who Mark Smich was scared was coming to get him -- not Krucifix14.

<modsnip>

I'm sure if MS lives in fear of Krucifix, TD will call him from the Toronto South jail to the witness stand to explain everything.

Not so sure about "explicitly" explained as Bosma's friends.

In this May 16 tweet he says it's Dell, " Peter Akman&#8207;@PeterAkmanCTV
"Did you tell them some ******s are going to come after me?" Millard Lawyer. Smich "No I said a ****** about Dell"


BD testified "'I f&#8211;ked up, man. I f&#8211;ked up,&#8221; Smich said, according to the witness, adding, &#8220;These are coming to get me&#8230; These guys don&#8217;t f&#8211;k around, they&#8217;re gonna come get me.'"

Saying "these guys don't f-k around" to me implies it is a group whose ways he is familiar with and he wouldn't be familiar with Bosma's friends. IMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Summary is very believable and probably very close to what actually happened. I believe they are both equally guilty and should both spend the rest of their lives in prison.

To turn on one another at this point just makes them both look even guiltier. Neither one ran to the police to claim he was innocent and their friend freaked out and turned into a lunatic. Both would have kept the secret and wouldn't have had any trouble with their conscience or "doing what's right" and giving Tim's family the truth.

Once caught, MS's "don't tell them anything, babe", stays in my mind; not the statement of an innocent person.

DM's jailhouse letters totally show he would do whatever is needed to BEAT THE CHARGE of first degree murder. Not once did he say he was innocent of murder, just that he would need to beat the charges. Interesting choice of words.....

These two are guilty, their actions before, during and after the murder clearly show this. Innocent people don't behave this way....

Just MOO.

Well, he kind of did. What he said in the letters was:

&#8220;It was Mark who ****ed up a truck robbery, not me. And just because I helped clean up Mark&#8217;s mess, does not mean I should also pay for it.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/read-dellen-millards-prison-letters-they-treated-me-as-though-i-were-hannibal-lecter

 

[Claroon]

I know, right, lol! That's new to me!

To be fair, SC April 6 tweeted this which was shortly after the n----as conversation: "Jury is back. Crown Moodie to Daly: did Smich express any concerns about the victim's friends coming to get him? Daly: yes. Apr 06, 2016

 

[Claroon]

I have a RAM. If you have questions, I will happily answer them for you &#9786;

Well, musical joke is wondering late at night around now here in ON 9:45-10 pm in the dark, would a person MS's height be able to see anyone in the passenger set slouched forward? Is the truck too high? Are the windows too dark? Would an interior light need to be on?

(unsure of MS's height myself).

 

[rmoeller]

Agreed. Imo it makes perfect sense that it could be the gun dealers. Just can't shake the idea.

moo

Not so sure about "explicitly" explained as Bosma's friends.

In this May 16 tweet he says it's Dell, " Peter Akman&#8207;@PeterAkmanCTV
"Did you tell them some ******s are going to come after me?" Millard Lawyer. Smich "No I said a ****** about Dell"


BD testified "'I f&#8211;ked up, man. I f&#8211;ked up,&#8221; Smich said, according to the witness, adding, &#8220;These are coming to get me&#8230; These guys don&#8217;t f&#8211;k around, they&#8217;re gonna come get me.'"

Saying "these guys don't f-k around" to me implies it is a group whose ways he is familiar with and he wouldn't be familiar with Bosma's friends. IMO

 

[Claroon]

There are so many clues that the murder was premeditated, that the sausage evidence by itself does not make any difference. Neither of them worked they don't have to wait for any weekend to party.

Yes, it's a very odd way of doing it. But they messed up on every step. Seems, every other person in the GTA knew that they are going to steal a truck. May be he wasn't meant to die at that point. It doesn't matter because he did die. But if things deviated from the plan, when do you abandon that plan? Why not dispose of the truck, burn all the evidence. Or, at the very least, hide it for a period of time?

Seems, DM didn't expect the publicity this case was going to receive. And he failed.

One thing I find odd is the arguments about "oh, who would believe the Tim Hortons story", or "wouldn't Tim Bosma see that there is nobody in the Yukon". It doesn't really matter. Up to the point when the gun was drawn and discharged, they could say anything. They could say that their imaginary friend found a 3 lb nugget in the field and they wanna go check it out. If that doesn't work out, they can call it off.

What is impossible to dispute is that Tim Bosma didn't come back from that test drive. Sachak calling one of them clever is a bit of a stretch, don't you find?

Bold By Me (BBM) 1 - Good point. If the plan failed, bail, don't make things worse.

BBM 2 - DM didn't know the power of the Dutch community. I'm not Dutch but have Dutch friends and that's how I first learned of the event, by my Dutch friend's Facebook page. They were on it Pronto.

 

[rmoeller]

I found out on Facebook the next day, in BC.

Bold By Me (BBM) 1 - Good point. If the plan failed, bail, don't make things worse.

BBM 2 - DM didn't know the power of the Dutch community. I'm not Dutch but have Dutch friends and that's how I first learned of the event, by my Dutch friend's Facebook page. They were on it Pronto.

 

[mimimic]

Well, musical joke is wondering late at night around now here in ON 9:45-10 pm in the dark, would a person MS's height be able to see anyone in the passenger set slouched forward? Is the truck too high? Are the windows too dark? Would an interior light need to be on?

(unsure of MS's height myself).

I took it to mean he got out of his truck and walked out around to the other side/truck.

 

[Claroon]

I took it to mean he got out of his truck and walked out around to the other side/truck.

Woops. When he said "from MS standpoint" I guess I thought he meant standing because he said the truck was so high. Either way, it's a test, And I don't call the Yukon a truck, personally, but an SUV or a Yukon. So yes, he would have to get out and walk around to the passenger side.

ETA: Just found MS did say, "He says ' I'm taking the truck.' I got out, walked around. I seen a bullet in the window and Mr #Bosma with his head on the dashboard." May 11, 2016" Tweet by MH

 

[Claroon]

If the Bobcat stop is where DM supposedly made a sudden swerve, the video doesn't seem to corroborate on that IMO. Maybe he swerved over the train tracks.

 

[mskrisc]

I'd prefer it if he were in a maximum security prison somewhere else and not up the street from me in Barton jail.

He will be soon enough!

 

[Yendys]

snipped for brevity...
So now I see the two accused going head to head, the anger is palpable between them, each hoping the jury will buy their own story and reject the other, but I think their strategy is going to backfire against them both. They filled in some blanks for the jury, and perhaps the jury can see a bit clearer into the motivations of each of the accused, but what DM and MS really did this past week, IMO, was prove their own guilt.

All MOO.

Re your last sentence. Agreed, neither MS or DM said TB died by some means other than by shooting. He was shot by one or the other accused or both. Guilt comes down to was the confinement and or murder planned. If yes, then they both should get 1st degree murder.

I have never followed a case this closely before and have learned a lot about how the law works. Thank you all for the amazing sleuthing over the past 3 years and a big shout out to those posting tweets.

I do hope the conclusion of this case brings some closure for the Bosma's and they are finally able to move on with their lives, forever changed as it may be.

 

[Just4TB]

Bold By Me (BBM) 1 - Good point. If the plan failed, bail, don't make things worse.

BBM 2 - DM didn't know the power of the Dutch community. I'm not Dutch but have Dutch friends and that's how I first learned of the event, by my Dutch friend's Facebook page. They were on it Pronto.

I am of Dutch heritage. As a group, it is true that there is a closeness and comraderie, also within church community. In the TB case, there was power in the organizing of the search and the fast publicity. But I believe this can be attributed more to TB and SB social networks, which consisted of both Dutch heritage and non-dutch heritage people.

There is zero evidence of the Dutch community, or TB social network and friends "coming to get MS", or being of any vigilante bent, in this or any other cases I am aware of. Actually, there is evidence that the friends assisted the police within the confines of the law.
As such, I do not believe MS testimony relating to the comment of TB friends being who he was afraid of.

I believe MS was referring to the police. He feared them, they had already nabbed DM, and he realized the police don't F around. OPP Major Case Management took over, organized multiple forces working in harmony, and this was a force that neither DM nor MS could hope of getting away from.

Credit to the various Police forces and individual members, esp Mike Kavanaugh, for a well executed investigation.

 

[mimimic]

I am of D]utch heritage.[/B] As a group, it is true that there is a closeness and comraderie, also within church community. In the TB case, there was power in the organizing of the search and the fast publicity. But I believe this can be attributed more to TB and SB social networks, which consisted of both Dutch heritage and non-dutch heritage people.

There is zero evidence of the Dutch community, or TB social network and friends "coming to get MS", or being of any vigilante bent, in this or any other cases I am aware of. Actually, there is evidence that the friends assisted the police within the confines of the law.
As such, I do not believe MS testimony relating to the comment of TB friends being who he was afraid of.

I believe MS was referring to the police. He feared them, they had already nabbed DM, and he realized the police don't F around. OPP Major Case Management took over, organized multiple forces working in harmony, and this was a force that neither DM nor MS could hope of getting away from.

Credit to the various Police forces and individual members, esp Mike Kavanaugh, for a well executed investigation.

I am of Dutch heritage I do not know Street slag well enough and have posted this once already,but i have a hard time believing this street slag as referring to the police. doesn't ring true to me

 

[Sleepy Villager]

I found out on Facebook the next day, in BC.

BC here too. Found out while he was still missing.