Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[CJPRINCESS]

Do you need a sim card to have your phone connect to a network... Not sure?

As far as I know, yes. My daughter uses and old SIM card that is no longer active (she ran her bill up and got disconnected) but can access WiFi through that SIM. Without a SIM, her phone will not work.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

IIRC, 3 burned seat belt buckles were found in evidence also, suggesting that there were materials from the vehicle and perhaps other inorganic evidence as well (clothing, seat belts, truck materials) If so, how can LE/forensics declare that it has only been used for human remains? At the very least, even if DM had bought it with intention of using it for people (sorry, graphic thought), I would imagine that he would at least be 'testing it out' with other junk ( and perhaps other evidence of previous thefts, etc.)In my opinion only.

Sorry for the triple post but there was a separate burn at the farm for the seats and other stuff a few days later that didn't involve the incinerator.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

IIRC, 3 burned seat belt buckles were found in evidence also, suggesting that there were materials from the vehicle and perhaps other inorganic evidence as well (clothing, seat belts, truck materials) If so, how can LE/forensics declare that it has only been used for human remains? At the very least, even if DM had bought it with intention of using it for people (sorry, graphic thought), I would imagine that he would at least be 'testing it out' with other junk ( and perhaps other evidence of previous thefts, etc.)In my opinion only.

The seats, seat belts, etc., weren't burned in the incinerator. They poured gas on them and burned them in a back field at the farm. There were burned areas of vegetation where they were burned.

The forensics team stated that only human remains had ever been burned in the incinerator.

And, because of the latter, one can safely infer that the sole reason for its purchase was to burn human remains.

The Eliminator incinerator was most definitely not the type one would purchase for incinerating garbage anyhow. The Eliminator incinerator is sold for the purpose of incinerating large dead livestock.


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[MrsThreadgoode]

I can't find the photo of the phones, does anyone have it?

Here you go [emoji846]

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[canadiangirl]

Do you need a sim card to have your phone connect to a network... Not sure?

I believe even way back you needed a sim on certain networks and others you didn't.

Not sure but the Samsung flip I have definitely has no SIM and I've never changed network providers. IIRC the same phone was sold through every provider back in then just like if you go buy an apple 6s today you could buy it at Roger, Telus, Bell and the phone would work on their network.
Or maybe it does and I have no clue where to find it. Lol it does have an SD card slot

 

[ABro]

IN the whole SIM card discussion people seem to be overlooking that Smich also dumped his phone according to the Meneses' cross examination on April 25th.

Sachak asked her about 647 219 7086

Where's that phone? Do you know?

No.

Gone, just like the gun? Because you cancelled that phone number. You did that for him ... Because it was also in your name. What did he do with that phone?

I don't know.

It's a mystery, isn't it? You didn't return it to the store?

There's no need.

Millard is arrested May 10. May 13 you cancel it. Did you ask him, your boyfriend, where's the phone?


I think he probably dumped it. I don't know where.

And the Blackberry that keeps getting brought up -- nothing on it after January 2013.

The Falconer report shows content deleted from the iPad including a photo of Smich with the gun the Crown alleges was used in the murder of Tim Bosma.

 

[canadiangirl]

The seats, seat belts, etc., weren't burned in the incinerator. They poured gas on them and burned them in a back field at the farm. There were burned areas of vegetation where they were burned.

The forensics team stated that only human remains had ever been burned in the incinerator.

And, because of the latter, one can safely infer that the sole reason for its purchase was to burn human remains.

The Eliminator incinerator was most definitely not the type one would purchase for incinerating garbage anyhow. The Eliminator incinerator is sold for the purpose of incinerating large dead livestock.


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So does that mean the metal grommets found would've conclusively come from TB then and not from another source such as one of the accused clothing?

 

[XiolaBlueX]

I suspected some of DM's questions to SS April 27 about the front-end loader and May 3 about the fork lift was him wondering how he would lift the body into the incinerator. The question about the fork lift was shortly after MS asked for an orange guy which we now know is Oxy for shoulder pain relief.

Yes, furthermore as a front-end loader is commonly used for digging, and likely could have been used to help to bury something. ("Overkill" in my opinion for 'only' lifting a body. Although compared to front end loader a forklift would be smaller and lifts.) As evidence suggests the incinerator was mostly emptied out, the contents (and sadly TB remains) will likely have been buried somewhere. In my opinion only

 

[JuneBug67]

Do you need a sim card to have your phone connect to a network... Not sure?

I believe even way back you needed a sim on certain networks and others you didn't.

You need a SIM to connect to 3G/4G/LTE networks. You didn't need a SIM to connect to CDMA networks, which was the pre-3G standard in Canada. I bough a new CDMA phone from Bell in early 2009. My next phone from them around 2011 I think was a Samsung Galaxy S2, and by then the network standard was 3G.

I've had a chance to review the tweets, and I'm kind of at a loss as to how the idea that Mark Smich wiped out all his phone history by destroying his SIMs even took hold. No expert witness was asked about or reported on any phone other than his Blackberry. There was no claim that they tried and failed to extract anything off the other three phones they recovered, or that the missing SIMs hampered them in any way. The crown chose to present data from his iPad and Blackberry, which contained photos, contacts and his side of conversations with MM and DM. Police remove SIMs from devices on seizure to prevent the phones from being remotely wiped precisely because much of the important information resides on the physical device.

The alleged importance of these missing SIMs only comes up during MS's cross by Sachak. How is MS supposed to be able to answer why the Crown didn't find or choose to present information from anything other than his (SIMless) Blackberry? It's not directed to a forensic data specialist, it's directed to MS. Nobody testified they couldn't extract information from those phones, we only know that no data was presented. How did this become the highly technically questionable "truth" that significant information was lost with MS's missing SIM cards?

 

[Inspector_North]

So does that mean the metal grommets found would've conclusively come from TB then and not from another source such as one of the accused clothing?

It could have been from a tarp etc. All items that could be part of the mission. Depending on the type of material incinerated, the cost for fuel can be higher than $25 for 100 pounds in a 500 pound propane unit. Not a device that makes garbage disposal economically feasible. $23,000 capital investment for the device, plus the cost of fuel and maintenance, this was not bought for garbage disposal. And according to RB, it was not bought as a business venture for pet cremation.

Anyone with other suggestions besides what it has been used for? The garbage purpose is a garbage excuse imo.

I can't think of any.

MOO

http://tammi.tamu.edu/Poultry-Incinerator-07-08.pdf

 

[JuneBug67]

Here you go [emoji846]

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If I recall correctly somebody (MS or MM?) pointed out one of these phones as the one that was cancelled - a Samsung.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

You need a SIM to connect to 3G/4G/LTE networks. You didn't need a SIM to connect to CDMA networks, which was the pre-3G standard in Canada. I bough a new CDMA phone from Bell in early 2009. My next phone from them around 2011 I think was a Samsung Galaxy S2, and by then the network standard was 3G.

I've had a chance to review the tweets, and I'm kind of at a loss as to how the idea that Mark Smich wiped out all his phone history by destroying his SIMs even took hold. No expert witness was asked about or reported on any phone other than his Blackberry. There was no claim that they tried and failed to extract anything off the other three phones they recovered, or that the missing SIMs hampered them in any way. The crown chose to present data from his iPad and Blackberry, which contained photos, contacts and his side of conversations with MM and DM. Police remove SIMs from devices on seizure to prevent the phones from being remotely wiped precisely because much of the important information resides on the physical device.

The alleged importance of these missing SIMs only comes up during MS's cross by Sachak. How is MS supposed to be able to answer why the Crown didn't find or choose to present information from anything other than his (SIMless) Blackberry? It's not directed to a forensic data specialist, it's directed to MS. Nobody testified they couldn't extract information from those phones, we only know that no data was presented. How did this become the highly technically questionable "truth" that significant information was lost with MS's missing SIM cards?

The crown probably just didn't want to get into it feeling they have enough with or without the phones. DMs lawyers have to defend their client so it's a bigger deal for them since MS was pinning it all on him.

 

[Alethea Dice]

The seats, seat belts, etc., weren't burned in the incinerator. They poured gas on them and burned them in a back field at the farm. There were burned areas of vegetation where they were burned.

The forensics team stated that only human remains had ever been burned in the incinerator.

And, because of the latter, one can safely infer that the sole reason for its purchase was to burn human remains.

The Eliminator incinerator was most definitely not the type one would purchase for incinerating garbage anyhow. The Eliminator incinerator is sold for the purpose of incinerating large dead livestock.


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Is there a link to where the forensics team stated that only human remains had ever been burned in the incinerator? I have been reading through the forensics testimony and can find nothing where they determined that was the only thing that had ever been burned it it. I know they were looking for human remains and I know the bones found were identified as human. I don't know, however, if anything else was tested to determine what those ashes may have been. I also know that forensics said the incinerator had been cleaned out. If that's the case, how would they ever know that it had never been used for anything else?

I also know that the Crown made that suggestion in their cross of MS, but anything that the Crown or the defense lawyers suggest is not evidence and is not fact unless proven in other testimony.

I realize that this probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but I would like to know if this is indeed a "fact" as it is being claimed to be. So if a link exists that indicates the actual forensics team stating that, it would be greatly appreciated. TIA

 

[Webulls]

I suspected some of DM's questions to SS April 27 about the front-end loader and May 3 about the fork lift was him wondering how he would lift the body into the incinerator. The question about the fork lift was shortly after MS asked for an orange guy which we now know is Oxy for shoulder pain relief.

Didn't the police remove the stolen bobcat from the farm? I suspect they used the bobcat to load the incinerator. No chance a string bean like DM could ever lift 170 lbs. five feet off the ground by himself. So another lie by MS that DM lifted him by himself. Not a chance. MS likely helped DM place Tim's body into the bobcat's bucket. DM controlled the bobcat after that, with MS providing some help with positioning.

 

[JuneBug67]

The crown probably just didn't want to get into it feeling they have enough with or without the phones. DMs lawyers have to defend their client so it's a bigger deal for them since MS was pinning it all on him.

Could be, but the fact remains that we know nothing about was or wasn't on those other phones and yet a defense lawyer's bluster suddenly became accepted fact. Accepted fact that is not even particularly credible given the state of technology in the SIM era. How did that happen?

 

[ABro]

The crown probably just didn't want to get into it feeling they have enough with or without the phones. DMs lawyers have to defend their client so it's a bigger deal for them since MS was pinning it all on him.

The OP labours under the misconception that the Crown is obliged to present the evidence the OP thinks it should present. Last week, the OP was up in arms that the Crown didn't present the Super Sucker truck sightings that the DM defence team believes to be key. Now it's expert testimony about SIM cards.

The Crown's obligation is to make its case and disclose all evidence to the defence. It really doesn't matter if someone on Websleuths believes that MS's devices were nothing but kittens and rainbows and fun outdoor furniture and sausages. All the prosecution has to do is convince is the jury using the evidence it believes is important.

 

[Alethea Dice]

IMO, the missing SIM cards was brought up to show that MS was doing everything he could think of to erase all evidence of his own involvement before, during and after the test drive.

 

[Arnie M]

Is there a link to where the forensics team stated that only human remains had ever been burned in the incinerator? I have been reading through the forensics testimony and can find nothing where they determined that was the only thing that had ever been burned it it. I know they were looking for human remains and I know the bones found were identified as human. I don't know, however, if anything else was tested to determine what those ashes may have been. I also know that forensics said the incinerator had been cleaned out. If that's the case, how would they ever know that it had never been used for anything else?

I also know that the Crown made that suggestion in their cross of MS, but anything that the Crown or the defense lawyers suggest is not evidence and is not fact unless proven in other testimony.

I realize that this probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but I would like to know if this is indeed a "fact" as it is being claimed to be. So if a link exists that indicates the actual forensics team stating that, it would be greatly appreciated. TIA

You are mistaken , forensics said no such thing .... it was the Georgia manufacture of the incinerator who said it had been used more than once .... and the judge interjected and told the jury to disregard it .... probably because of implications regarding the upcoming LB trial

 

[matou]

And until the trial is over, we at Websleuths will keep on keeping on...sleuthing.

 

[crazyladi]

Thanks everyone for all the information you have shared and timelines put together. I am only catching up now as I have been busy at work and was only reading tweets of MS on the stand.