Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[ABro]

Four fingers. One palm. One thumb. One gun.

imo

And that's why MS deleted the photo.

imo

It was actually DM who deleted the photo.

MS deleted his entire phone history by getting rid of all his SIM cards.

Of course the MS fan club doesn't believe SIM cards are important just like they know finding the gun wouldn't make a difference.

 

[Inspector_North]

It was actually DM who deleted the photo.

MS deleted his entire phone history by getting rid of all his SIM cards.

Of course the MS fan club doesn't believe SIM cards are important just like they know finding the gun wouldn't make a difference.

For those not believing what important data SIM cards hold.

"The SIM Card Does Contain
Along with the text messages, the SIM card holds your phone contacts with the related information like names and numbers, and history of calls including dates and times. This is why law enforcement seeks to gain entry to SIM cards in order to connect criminals to their associates. The SIM card also contains several pieces of information that relate to the security protocols, the network carrier, your Personal Identification Number (PIN), an unblocking code, and the services you use, like applications. Another very important piece of data is the last location of the phone, which is often useful in locating missing people."

http://www.ebay.com/gds/SIM-Card-Guide-/10000000177629426/g.html

MOO

 

[ABro]

For those not believing what important data SIM cards hold.

"The SIM Card Does Contain
Along with the text messages, the SIM card holds your phone contacts with the related information like names and numbers, and history of calls including dates and times. This is why law enforcement seeks to gain entry to SIM cards in order to connect criminals to their associates. The SIM card also contains several pieces of information that relate to the security protocols, the network carrier, your Personal Identification Number (PIN), an unblocking code, and the services you use, like applications. Another very important piece of data is the last location of the phone, which is often useful in locating missing people."

http://www.ebay.com/gds/SIM-Card-Guide-/10000000177629426/g.html

MOO

Depending on the model of phone, there can be even more information.

 

[Juballee]

Adrien Humphreys has just posted what he can from Exhibit 144 to YouTube ... It was so very kind of him to do with his frenetic schedule!

Here you go ... All the slides from Exhibit 144 from the Bosma trial that are allowed to be published.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=ECVuTqhbGnA

The video contains a few other texts and a couple of other pictures, such as one of Jenn.

Here are the 3 pics that we have been discussing:

Just prior to sending the sausages pic, MS texts "high five" to DM.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks for posting that!

I haven't even come close to catching up on the thread, (and I probably never will at this point), so I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out yet, but I think I 'get' the sausages picture now. It's a hand giving a high five, right? That's what the 'high five' text before it meant, I think.

I don't know what the high five was for, or if he took that picture himself, but once I see the sausages as a hand, I can't I see it.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Depending on the model of phone, there can be even more information.

Or less if the phone is an older model. MS phones were said to be older.

Thanks Inspector_North. Lol, can't believe I didn't google "SIM" information better. I was reading the link below when the discarded/lost SIM came up for MS. So I went by what another said that works for a cellular phone company that said "SIM'S don't normally store texts because the cards have limited storage". I'm not tech savvy and its all foreign talk to me.

The Wiki link below only states contacts of 250 on newer model SIM cards but too bad they didn't say how many text messages. Older Sim cards store less. 20 contacts and as few as 5 messages.

"The number of contacts and messages stored depends on the SIM; early models would store as few as five messages and 20 contacts while modern SIM cards can usually store over 250 contacts"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subscriber_identity_module

 

[ABro]

I'm not tech savvy and its all foreign talk to me.

Yes, the information you have linked is completely out of date and irrelevant. There isn't even a citation given for it on Wikipedia. If you want to learn about SIM cards and forensics I suggest you explore the Cellebrite website.

 

[Juballee]

I think it's only uneven odds if you accept a premeditation to murder. That falls towards DM. If it's accidental or unplanned, whether or not both knew a gun was present, I think we're back to even odds with people just intuiting the guy they like the least as the shooter.

I thought the evidence most supported a robbery gone bad, then I was thrown off by the fireside/sausage evidence, and now that the Crown seems to have chosen what I see as one of the least plausible paths - a Leopold & Loeb style thrill kill and perfect crime where killing was an integral and required part of the plan - I'm not sure we're not back where robbery gone bad is looking pretty good again.

I was under the impression that here, like the states, the getaway driver outside is also guilty of first degree murder if the hold up man killed the store clerk, even if it was accidental but during a planned crime like a robbery. If that were the case I would say that they would both definetly be found guilty of first degree murder through any of the three different versions heard in court. But someone posted recently that this is not true here in Canada, so I'm not sure if that has been debated and researched yet. But if that is the case, the crown had to make it appear as if was a murder planned by both sides in order to get a first degree conviction. Again, I haven't caught up so I have no idea if the law on this was hashed out here or not yet, so of course it's my opinion only.

I also found the thought of fireside furniture and sausages photos disturbing and considered them as possible damning premeditation before I saw them. I am not pro-MS by any means, but I honestly think that the furniture photos were of something MS wanted to steal, they are unique and I image the bench at least is very expensive. And I think the sausage was just a lame joke, 'look, my lunch looks like a high five.'

 

[JuneBug67]

I'd invite users so inclined to remove their SIM cards and see if their text messages are still there. Mine certainly are, and I expect there is little unique about me or my phone. Text messaging is ubiquitous and the amount of data that be can be stored on a SIM is negligible in a relative sense. For most people and most phones, text messages will be stored on the phone's internal non-removable memory. Contacts can be stored on SIM, but are not necessarily stored there. Android users can store them on their Google account, on the internal phone memory or on the SIM.

I would have to review the evidence to confirm exactly what MS's actions with his phones and SIMs may have deprived the investigation of, but it's certainly wrong to say they got nothing from him because of the recovery of the iPad which he used iMessage on. It's my recollection that the sausage etc. pics were first presented in testimony as recovered from the iPad and then further bolstered by Millard's phone in subsequent testimony.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I'd invite users so inclined to remove their SIM cards and see if their text messages are still there. Mine certainly are, and I expect there is little unique about me or my phone. Text messaging is ubiquitous and the amount of data that be can be stored on a SIM is negligible in a relative sense. For most people and most phones, text messages will be stored on the phone's internal non-removable memory. Contacts can be stored on SIM, but are not necessarily stored there. Android users can store them on their Google account, on the internal phone memory or on the SIM.

I would have to review the evidence to confirm exactly what MS's actions with his phones and SIMs may have deprived the investigation of, but it's certainly wrong to say they got nothing from him because of the recovery of the iPad which he used iMessage on. It's my recollection that the sausage etc. pics were first presented in testimony as recovered from the iPad and then further bolstered by Millard's phone in subsequent testimony.

Mines is the same (Galaxy 1 and Galaxy S5) and so was a used IPhone a friend gave to my daughter. This is why I didn't think the SIM was that important.

ETA: my hubby gave his old IPHONE to my nephew and just reminded me what he had to do to it before giving it to our nephew. He removed his SIM card for his new phone leaving text messages and other stuff still on the phone. He had to wipe the phone back to factory to delete all his texts and any other pics that were stored to phone. His SIM did not contain text messages.

 

[JuneBug67]

I was under the impression that here, like the states, the getaway driver outside is also guilty of first degree murder if the hold up man killed the store clerk, even if it was accidental but during a planned crime like a robbery. If that were the case I would say that they would both definetly be found guilty of first degree murder through any of the three different versions heard in court. But someone posted recently that this is not true here in Canada, so I'm not sure if that has been debated and researched yet. But if that is the case, the crown had to make it appear as if was a murder planned by both sides in order to get a first degree conviction. Again, I haven't caught up so I have no idea if the law on this was hashed out here or not yet, so of course it's my opinion only.

I also found the thought of fireside furniture and sausages photos disturbing and considered them as possible damning premeditation before I saw them. I am not pro-MS by any means, but I honestly think that the furniture photos were of something MS wanted to steal, they are unique and I image the bench aat least is very expensive. And I think the sausage was just a lame joke, 'look, my lunch looks like a high five.'

"Just" robbery does not appear to be enough in Canada. In the context of this crime it is forcible confinement that raises a death to first degree murder. I expect we will know much more after the judge's charge on how and for whom the jury can find forcible confinement within the law.

The high five seems quite benign, and actually kind of funny now that we've seen it. The fireside furniture still bothers me and I can't find that as definitively irrelevant. Both pics appear to come off the internet, the couch because it can be found in searches (try "bonfire furniture") and the stools because of the caption. The caption with its "fire pit seating" and "glow in the dark" remain somewhat chilling to me.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Just to add to the fireside furniture.
There is a place just outside of the Six Nations Rez that sells stuff like this. Much nicer then the pictures though. It is (or use to be) right at the corner by the highway ramp. I believe it's the same ramp to access the highway from Ancaster. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the area will know the place I'm talking about. If I take that way tomorrow, I'll take better note of it.

Was just an after thought since the furniture was not tagged by MS but rather taken off the internet. Just not sure it would be done with a dead body in the front seat or truck box.

 

[XiolaBlueX]

I was under the impression that here, like the states, the getaway driver outside is also guilty of first degree murder if the hold up man killed the store clerk, even if it was accidental but during a planned crime like a robbery. If that were the case I would say that they would both definetly be found guilty of first degree murder through any of the three different versions heard in court. But someone posted recently that this is not true here in Canada, so I'm not sure if that has been debated and researched yet. But if that is the case, the crown had to make it appear as if was a murder planned by both sides in order to get a first degree conviction. Again, I haven't caught up so I have no idea if the law on this was hashed out here or not yet, so of course it's my opinion only.

I also found the thought of fireside furniture and sausages photos disturbing and considered them as possible damning premeditation before I saw them. I am not pro-MS by any means, but I honestly think that the furniture photos were of something MS wanted to steal, they are unique and I image the bench at least is very expensive. And I think the sausage was just a lame joke, 'look, my lunch looks like a high five.'

Bolded by me- I agree completely, this was my understanding too. IMO only, this is why Crown is stressing premeditated murder, and also the crowns been emphasizing during cross of MS that TB must have felt alarmed and very uncomfortable (- IMO, laying groundwork for forcible confinement, which would be a way to convict of 1st degree murder also.
Hence, why I feel that MS is carefully testifying "scoping" out the truck vs stealing by gunpoint. Every piece of his story seems very careful to never show that it was anything like a robbery.

 

[JuneBug67]

Mines is the same and so was a used IPhone a friend gave to my daughter. This is why I didn't think the SIM was that important.

There are variables between phones, models, user configurations etc. and Mark used a Blackberry as well, a company off on its own reservation for much of its existence to that point. So I'm not clear on what the investigation lost with the missing SIMs, but to imply that MS was electronically inscrutable is just wrong. We have some iPad and iMessage recovery, phone history from the carrier(s), and a gun photo from the Blackberry, just off the top of my head.

 

[canadiangirl]

I'd invite users so inclined to remove their SIM cards and see if their text messages are still there. Mine certainly are, and I expect there is little unique about me or my phone. Text messaging is ubiquitous and the amount of data that be can be stored on a SIM is negligible in a relative sense. For most people and most phones, text messages will be stored on the phone's internal non-removable memory. Contacts can be stored on SIM, but are not necessarily stored there. Android users can store them on their Google account, on the internal phone memory or on the SIM.

I would have to review the evidence to confirm exactly what MS's actions with his phones and SIMs may have deprived the investigation of, but it's certainly wrong to say they got nothing from him because of the recovery of the iPad which he used iMessage on. It's my recollection that the sausage etc. pics were first presented in testimony as recovered from the iPad and then further bolstered by Millard's phone in subsequent testimony.

Same. My texts are still intact.

 

[canadiangirl]

There are variables between phones, models, user configurations etc. and Mark used a Blackberry as well, a company off on its own reservation for much of its existence to that point. So I'm not clear on what the investigation lost with the missing SIMs, but to imply that MS was electronically inscrutable is just wrong. We have some iPad and iMessage recovery, phone history from the carrier(s), and a gun photo from the Blackberry, just off the top of my head.

I've brought this up before but IIRC the phone expert stated the physical phone is required to recover data. They had some phones of MS.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

There are variables between phones, models, user configurations etc. and Mark used a Blackberry as well, a company off on its own reservation for much of its existence to that point. So I'm not clear on what the investigation lost with the missing SIMs, but to imply that MS was electronically inscrutable is just wrong. We have some iPad and iMessage recovery, phone history from the carrier(s), and a gun photo from the Blackberry, just off the top of my head.

From my understanding iMessage is an Apple to Apple feature? Like blackberrys' have bbm messaging that are used between blackberry users only. It uses the internet data instead text allowances and if connected to WiFi it wouldn't cost the user to use it. Does using IMessage store text content differently like for example into Icloud? I believe MS had pay as you go at some point so WiFi would be used when possible.

IMO, it sounds more like MS wiped his phones clean and it was just IMessage type stuff left behind. Maybe due to that reason the LE needed the SIMs in hopes there was a better footprint? That's why I'm asking if IMessages are stored differnt.

Sorry if I'm confusing anyone. I'm not a Apple user, I don't like their products because I find them difficult to use.

 

[JuneBug67]

I've brought this up before but IIRC the phone expert stated the physical phone is required to recover data. They had some phones of MS.

Yeah...just from experience most people have a basic sense of where this stuff usually is. Photos, applications, most application data, text messages etc. are virtually always on the phone. Carrier information, high security application data (like mobile wallet data) and sometimes contacts are on the SIM. An optional removable SD card can also hold phone data. The carrier has phone history like call and text message history, but not content. It's a reasonable question that given that investigators had Smich's numbers and his physical phones as well as an iPad and his side of conversations on other people's phones, if the stuff about the SIMs being missing was more useful as a crie de cour from opposing legal teams than it was truly harmful to the investigation.

 

[Arnie M]

.

I am surprised someone hasn't noticed that the log furniture stools are painted CN's Rubiks Cube colors ..... red , green , yellow, and blue

 

[Abitcountry]

Just curious why Dm's attorney didn't harp more on MS's assistance with regard to how TB's body got into the incinerator. (or was it actually due to lack of??) I find there is a little bit of time and info left out by both parties in this respect that I find odd, seems like a bit of time is being swept over.

-This graphic nature of this topic is not one that I chose to dwell on and yet this morning my mind was on it like a dog with a bone.
There is a school of thought that one man alone could not have moved the body into the incinerator because of size and weight and the distance of the lift. But the truth is, we have all seen the luminol photos of the tail gate and bed of TB's truck and we know that at some point in time his body had been deposited there. If the tailgate were lowered and the truck backed into position against the trailer/incinerator the lift distance would have been reduced by 3-4 feet making it more feasible that one person could have done it alone.
-During Smich's cross examination, I believe it was the Crown who introduced the issue or suggestion of TB's body having been repositioned while stopped at the Bobcat dealership....and IIRC there was no extended conversation or even suggestion of how the transfer from the passenger seat to the truck bed was accomplished and by how many men. Smich was not questioned or challenged on his possible involvement with the "repositioning". ( also somewhat swept over)
-At one point Smich testified that the body was wrapped in a sheet at the farm.......but it would seem more likely that it would have been wrapped at the Bobcat dealership to contain blood transfer onto the clothes of the accused or onto the Yukon where as we now know, no transfer was ever detected.
-And if Smich had been questioned about his part in the "repositioning" would he have resorted to the same 'bad shoulder' excuse or did he just do his part?
It seems that this is a case that just keeps on giving and giving food for more thoughts at every level. IMO

 

[JuneBug67]

From my understanding iMessage is an Apple to Apple feature? Like blackberrys' have bbm messaging that are used between blackberry users only. It uses the internet data instead text allowances and if connected to WiFi it wouldn't cost the user to use it. Does using IMessage store text content differently like for example into Icloud? I believe MS had pay as you go at some point so WiFi would be used when possible.

IMO, it sounds more like MS wiped his phones clean and it was just IMessage type stuff left behind. Maybe due to that reason the LE needed the SIMs in hopes there was a better footprint? That's why I'm asking if IMessages are stored differnt.

Sorry if I'm confusing anyone. I'm not a Apple user, I don't like their products because I find them difficult to use.

Yes, Apple to Apple and not SMS. They are included in a phone backup to the cloud, but are not directly stored on the cloud. So they could be recovered from a physical device if they haven't been overwritten.