Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[NoodlesMcgee]

Too bad it wasn't in the order in which it occurred. I think we'd probably get a clearer picture in the events leading up to that day

All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise

My guess is this is the one with the most evidence given the test drive. The LB one is going to really rely on the text messages unless they found some evidence at the farm.

 

[canadiangirl]

My guess is this is the one with the most evidence given the test drive. The LB one is going to really rely on the text messages unless they found some evidence at the farm.

Well not to mention it wasn't even on their radar until this happened. I often wonder if websleuths didn't help draw connections at times.

 

[Errrr]

"unexpected clean up". Guess that COULD fit with according to MS "murder wasn't in the plan?"

Yes, murdering him before they got there was off plan, hence MS taking the opportunity to manufacture a defence from the fact.

 

[JuneBug67]

Contrary to what you've suggested, I have not been selective nor have I drawn any conclusive points from Smich's lyrics. I'm simply drawing connections and inferences based on the facts, and assigning weight and probability in the context of other evidence. Smich wrote about using a .380 to kill someone, and then he was implicated in a killing where a .380 was used. His lyrics contained autobiographical references as well as non-biographical references. I'm not ruling out that the lyrics could be completely unrelated to the reality of this case, but the connection in my view still contains some weight and should not be dismissed.

By the way, I think this has been a great debate and I hope you do not feel like I'm trying to prove that I'm right or that you are wrong. Rather, we are challenging each others reasoning, and I appreciate that we can do so respectfully.

Thanks I also appreciate the opportunity to test my own and others thoughts on these issues that do matter, and in a way that furthers good discussion.

I want to try my point in another way. We all agree, inside the courtroom and out, that these two men were conspiring to steal a truck. The record is unambiguous on that, and the evidence for it would not exist in the form that it does if they weren't. In other words, the evidence is completely inconsistent with innocence. If they weren't going to steal a truck, the evidence as it is wouldn't exist.

We all acknowledge rap lyrics are different than this. Nobody thinks Beyoncé has killed anyone, so we can agree that people completely innocent of murder sing, rap or write about it, sometimes in the first person. I know that we all agree on this so I won't belabour the point.

When a rapper who writes violent lyrics is arrested for murder, there are two possibilities: the rapper is either innocent or guilty of the charge. Whether he is innocent or guilty those lyrics exist in exactly the same way, and because of that you can't infer anything from their existence without assuming the conclusion in your premise. There is no way to tell if it is relevant or an unlucky coincidence through its mere existence. If the evidence looks exactly the same way either way, the only way it can be connected to guilt is if you have already inferred it in some way. Until you know the person is guilty it is no more or less probable to be predictive or anything, and to say otherwise is begging the question.

 

[JuneBug67]

It's probably mostly a matter of what they're ready to try. They'd been preparing this case for a year before charges were even laid. A matter of priority through the eyes of public interest and lawyer/case scheduling as well probably...MS still has an untried pre-existing grafitti chage for example.

 

[Tiggertoo]

I'm not sure why everyone expects he should've driven away so that's the reason he's guilty. He was there when a murder happened. They are friends.

I would like someone to honestly tell me, and honestly put yourself in someone's shoes. Beyond a doubt, if your best friend killed someone, and you didn't know what was going on, there was chaos and they said, follow me. You'd drive off to the police alone? I'm not so sure. I'd likely call on the way, but his phone was dead let's assume. (we don't know if it was or wasn't)

I actually think it's possible an honest good person would follow their friend. (obviously MS is not honest or good which makes it more likely he'd follow) added to the fact he didn't know the area or drive much. IMO the person would talk to friend somewhere. THEN tell them to go to police. Or go with then to police or call them whatever. Contact LE.

Obviously the last part didn't happen because they decided to cover it up. But that isn't something I'd find so hard to believe as an uncommon reaction IMO.

And the gun well. If it wasn't his to begin with and DM took care of getting rid of it, then by the time he did get it, he'd be giving up isho with no help to his own case. Huge risk IMO with no pay off.

I have tried to see where you are coming from and although you are a very strong debater I just don't agree with your line of thinking. There are too many things pointing to MS's guilt. If you break everything into pieces I can see what you're saying but the fact is we are looking at the evidence as a whole and as a whole it points to MS guilt.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I'm not sure why everyone expects he should've driven away so that's the reason he's guilty. He was there when a murder happened. They are friends.

I would like someone to honestly tell me, and honestly put yourself in someone's shoes. Beyond a doubt, if your best friend killed someone, and you didn't know what was going on, there was chaos and they said, follow me. You'd drive off to the police alone? I'm not so sure. I'd likely call on the way, but his phone was dead let's assume. (we don't know if it was or wasn't)

I actually think it's possible an honest good person would follow their friend. (obviously MS is not honest or good which makes it more likely he'd follow) added to the fact he didn't know the area or drive much. IMO the person would talk to friend somewhere. THEN tell them to go to police. Or go with then to police or call them whatever. Contact LE.

Obviously the last part didn't happen because they decided to cover it up. But that isn't something I'd find so hard to believe as an uncommon reaction IMO.

And the gun well. If it wasn't his to begin with and DM took care of getting rid of it, then by the time he did get it, he'd be giving up isho with no help to his own case. Huge risk IMO with no pay off.

In your scenario,I believe that if it were a surprise and shocking event for MS, the fight or flight instinct would kick in. Flight would be the most reasonable option as he was safely in another vehicle. To fight is not an option, as your friend is armed, crazed, just murdered a completely innocent man and why wouldn't he kill you as well? The only witness?

Every instinct would tell you that you're in imminent risk of death- or risk of being involved in a murder. In that mode you're not going to just follow along, friend, or no friend. The adrenaline created being a 'witness' to this horrific murder would be pushing him with equal force to flee in an opposite direction, IMO.

The phone and the gun? Neither of MS's explanations made any sense.

 

[Arnie M]

Thanks to Adrian Humphreys for releasing a few more details about the text messages for us. I was able to clean up the timeline a little bit and fix the ordering of some messages. Here's my current analysis of the conversation between Smich and Millard on May 2 and 3:

On May 2, Millard texts Smich that he will "check him after 4pm" the next day to work on "the mission". Smich then replies, "Ok it's fireworks tomoro night." These two messages clearly indicate that there is a plan to work on "the mission" on May 3, and the plan is known to both of them. Whatever Smich meant by fireworks, the conversation suggests to me that fireworks is somehow related to the mission they are working on.

In the morning of May 3, Smich asks if Marlena and Pedo and can reach and chill while they do their thing, and he sends the photos of the log bench and stools. I make a couple of inferences from this: 1) Smich thinks they will be travelling somewhere (hence wondering if Marlena and Pedo can tag along), and 2) the log bench and stools relate to Marlena and Pedo hanging back and "chilling" while Millard and Smich go off to do their thing, whatever that is.

In the afternoon of May 3, Smich texts "High Five!" along with the photo of the sausages arranged in a hand shape. I agree with others that it's difficult to draw a conclusive sinister inference from this photo, however, in my mind it doesn't completely rule out symbolism of using of the incinerator. From previous messages, it is clear that Smich and Millard speak in vague and symbolic terms when it comes to discussion of the mission. The fireworks, reaching and chilling, and the furniture photos suggest that the plan involved something outdoors-y, IMO.

At 4:18pm on May 3, Smich texts "Wut's good cracka". Up to this point, Millard hasn't responded to him all day, and there seems to be an air of excitement or eagerness on Smich's behalf to work on the mission together.

Millard finally responds at 4:20pm: "just finished a 6 hr meeting at hangar", and Smich immediately replies, "Can u bring me gloves and tape and maybe an orange guy? The first two I need more." Smich's quick reply and the way he jumps straight to business bolsters the idea that he is excited/eager about their plan to work on the mission. The orange guy wasn't so important, but he really needed the gloves and tape.

At 4:56pm (note: I assume AH made a typo since his video states 4:56am) Millard writes, "I'm reaching your ways now, ete 50 mins", suggesting that they did in fact get together that evening.

Between 8:30pm and 10:30pm that night, Millard was at Maple Gate looking up trucks on Kijiji/Autotrader and he also called Araujo and Palmilli. So, based on the earlier text messages, it would seem that Millard picked up Smich and took him to Maple Gate where they checked out trucks for sale.

Based on all the text conversation leading up, I would suggest that their original plan was to try to find a test drive that night (May 3), but it ended up being too late and/or they couldn't book a time with anyone (e.g. Araujo, Palmilli). This would give proper context to the fireworks, gloves/tape, and the excitement to carry out "the mission". Smich thought it was fireworks that night, but it wasn't yet.

Although the plan fell through that evening, they kept pushing for it over the weekend until they eventually got Bosma on May 6.

All my opinion, of course.

Thanks billandrew ... I tremendously appreciate how you systematically bring all the pieces and fragments together ... as far as I am concerned that is how it should be done , and as far as I know you are the only person to do so , and if I was on the Jury and could make a request to the judge it would be .... get me a set of billsnotes !!!!

 

[Notanotherusername]

My guess is this is the one with the most evidence given the test drive. The LB one is going to really rely on the text messages unless they found some evidence at the farm.

Wasn't there a stained board removed from the barn? I don't think it's come into evidence at the trial, so it could (my opinion only) be related to the LB case....

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Thanks to Adrian Humphreys for releasing a few more details about the text messages for us. I was able to clean up the timeline a little bit and fix the ordering of some messages. Here's my current analysis of the conversation between Smich and Millard on May 2 and 3:

On May 2, Millard texts Smich that he will "check him after 4pm" the next day to work on "the mission". Smich then replies, "Ok it's fireworks tomoro night." These two messages clearly indicate that there is a plan to work on "the mission" on May 3, and the plan is known to both of them. Whatever Smich meant by fireworks, the conversation suggests to me that fireworks is somehow related to the mission they are working on.

In the morning of May 3, Smich asks if Marlena and Pedo and can reach and chill while they do their thing, and he sends the photos of the log bench and stools. I make a couple of inferences from this: 1) Smich thinks they will be travelling somewhere (hence wondering if Marlena and Pedo can tag along), and 2) the log bench and stools relate to Marlena and Pedo hanging back and "chilling" while Millard and Smich go off to do their thing, whatever that is.

In the afternoon of May 3, Smich texts "High Five!" along with the photo of the sausages arranged in a hand shape. I agree with others that it's difficult to draw a conclusive sinister inference from this photo, however, in my mind it doesn't completely rule out symbolism of using of the incinerator. From previous messages, it is clear that Smich and Millard speak in vague and symbolic terms when it comes to discussion of the mission. The fireworks, reaching and chilling, and the furniture photos suggest that the plan involved something outdoors-y, IMO.

At 4:18pm on May 3, Smich texts "Wut's good cracka". Up to this point, Millard hasn't responded to him all day, and there seems to be an air of excitement or eagerness on Smich's behalf to work on the mission together.

Millard finally responds at 4:20pm: "just finished a 6 hr meeting at hangar", and Smich immediately replies, "Can u bring me gloves and tape and maybe an orange guy? The first two I need more." Smich's quick reply and the way he jumps straight to business bolsters the idea that he is excited/eager about their plan to work on the mission. The orange guy wasn't so important, but he really needed the gloves and tape.

At 4:56pm (note: I assume AH made a typo since his video states 4:56am) Millard writes, "I'm reaching your ways now, ete 50 mins", suggesting that they did in fact get together that evening.

Between 8:30pm and 10:30pm that night, Millard was at Maple Gate looking up trucks on Kijiji/Autotrader and he also called Araujo and Palmilli. So, based on the earlier text messages, it would seem that Millard picked up Smich and took him to Maple Gate where they checked out trucks for sale.

Based on all the text conversation leading up, I would suggest that their original plan was to try to find a test drive that night (May 3), but it ended up being too late and/or they couldn't book a time with anyone (e.g. Araujo, Palmilli). This would give proper context to the fireworks, gloves/tape, and the excitement to carry out "the mission". Smich thought it was fireworks that night, but it wasn't yet.

Although the plan fell through that evening, they kept pushing for it over the weekend until they eventually got Bosma on May 6.

All my opinion, of course.

Wow, billandrew! You would be such a fine addition to the prosecution team! Better yet, one of the jurors. Great post!!


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[canadiangirl]

I have tried to see where you are coming from and although you are a very strong debater I just don't agree with your line of thinking. There are too many things pointing to MS's guilt. If you break everything into pieces I can see what you're saying but the fact is we are looking at the evidence as a whole and as a whole it points to MS guilt.

That's alright no one has to agree. It's just a discussion, which for me was the whole point of websleuths. However some think by discussing what the majority doesn't agree with that there must be a secret agenda. So that's really not a discussion then is it?

By say "we are looking at the evidence as a whole", is this a "collective" we? Because I'm quite certain some others don't see the same as the "collective we" but have stated they have been hesitant to post here due to the way people have been responding which is pretty sad.

Quite frankly the "everything you say is incorrect because we are right" mentality is getting old, to say that WE who are on the fence aren't looking at things as a whole is essentially saying we must be stupid. This is how condescending people have become.

Now that we're nearing the end of the trial, it's safe to say most people who are on the fence are keeping to themselves.

I have been a strong debater because everything I've said has been quoted in a gang mentality instead of accepting of people's opinions.

 

[canadiangirl]

I was in the courtroom when rap video was shown while MS was on the stand. It wasn't the lyrics that made the most impact on me, it was the juxtaposition of him in the video vs on the stand. Very different persona. It definitely showed a glimpse of a different kind of attitude and it was a reminder that he probably often put on bravado for His crew, including DM. A complete subculture (could picture him perhaps using a gun to intimidate TB and do a planned robbery, this type of attitude prob led to much credibility in his social circle)

Very interesting perspective from someone who has seen first hand. Thank you. Reading straight tweets without the background is difficult. It can be taken so many ways. But a person's demeanor can change things

 

[Just4TB]

I don't understand why the LB trial wasn't first.

I believe that although LB was murdered first, the trials are in order of the charges. LB murder charge was more than 1 year later than the TB murder charge.

ETA
I just read others posts that said same thing prior to me posting... oops

 

[canadiangirl]

I believe that although LB was murdered first, the trials are in order of the charges. LB murder charge was more than 1 year later than the TB murder charge.

It's kinda sucky. Lol I would've liked to know the back story first. Maybe it would help bring clarity to some of us. To say I don't see enough evidence to convict MS of first degree in this trial, if I found out from the LB trial there was more to convict it'd be pretty crappy.

Actually that's a question I had. If for example one of them get a lesser conviction here, and then when the LB trial happens it clear they were both planning this since her death. What happens at that point? Is it just too bad? Because that would be horrible

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

We all know for a fact that both planned to steal the truck.

We also know for a fact that over a period of months both DM and MS discussed/texted and even worked on the incinerator together, continuing to text about it over a couple of days just prior to the "test drive" with Tim.

We know for a fact that at least one loaded gun was brought with them that night.

We know for a fact that the only thing ever burned in that incinerator was human remains, never garbage, never animals.

At a cost of more than $22,000.00, that was quite an investment ... One that obviously meant a great deal to DM and MS. DM could well have bought the 3500 he so wanted with that money, but the incinerator became a necessary purchase for him. For what reason? There truly is only one likely reason for its purchase. And I believe I can say with great confidence, that in addition to the few text messages we have seen between the 2 of them, that they spent hours, and hours, and days in person planning more than most of us can even imagine, only in frank straight talk, rather than cryptic texts. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, IMO, both knew exactly what the incinerator was going to be used for and what the gun was going to be used for.

There is absolutely no possibility that the incinerator was purchased for anything other than burning human remains. There isn't a single innocent reason for such a high-cost purchase, and then make it portable to boot.

IMO these bolded facts ALONE show premeditation of 1st degree murder by both defendants.

And then on TOP of that, there is truly a mountain of supporting evidence that was collected and interpreted by very diligent and dedicated LE officers.

MOO



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[canadiangirl]

We all know for a fact that both planned to steal the truck.

We also know for a fact that over a period of months both DM and MS discussed and even worked on the incinerator together, continuing to discuss it over a couple of days just prior to picking up Tim.

We know for a fact that at least one loaded gun was brought with them that night.

We know for a fact that the only thing ever burned in that incinerator was human remains, never garbage, never animals.

At a cost of more than $22,000.00, that was quite an investment ... One that obviously meant a great deal to DM and MS. DM could well have bought the 3500 he so wanted with that money, but the incinerator became a necessary purchase for him. For what reason? There truly is only one likely reason for its purchase. And I believe I can say with great confidence, that in addition to the few text messages we have seen between the 2 of them, that they spent hours, and hours, and days in person planning more than most of us can even imagine. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, IMO, both knew exactly what the incinerator was going to be used for.

There is absolutely no possibility that the incinerator was purchased for anything other than burning human remains. Not a single innocent reason to purchase it, and make it portable to boot.

IMO these bolded facts ALONE show premeditation of 1st degree murder.

And then on top of that, there is truly a mountain of supporting evidence that was collected and interpreted by very diligent and dedicated LE officers.

MOO



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Actually we know for a fact they both planned to steal a truck. We know DM purchased a gun. We know DM had SS purchase and build an incinerator. We know DM and MS spent hours upon hours planning a truck heist. We know based on some text messages there was a loose mention of a BBQ which people are interpreting how they feel is correct. Anything I've missed?

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Actually we know for a fact they both planned to steal a truck. We know DM purchased a gun. We know DM had SS purchase and build an incinerator. We know DM and MS spent hours upon hours planning a truck heist. We know based on some text messages there was a loose mention of a BBQ which people are interpreting how they feel is correct. Anything I've missed?

I had hoped I could to do this without going back to copy/paste (hard to do on Tapatalk) all the text messages about the incinerator between MS and DM that show, IMO, both had knowledge, we're working together on the incinerator. I don't have time to do that tonight. All so well put together in the timeline by billandrew.

It is a fact that both knew about the gun(s), handled the gun(s), and that that loaded gun did accompany them that night. It is a fact that they both had knowledge of the incinerator. And, IMO, they both new what that incinerator was going to be used for ... It is a fact that both had knowledge of both. We do know what the outcome was that night. They conspired to create that outcome, IMO.

I truly think that it is very important to keep in mind that the only thing that was ever burned in that incinerator was human remains. That is a fact. If that is what they chose to burn, then it is a reasonable assumption to make that that was its intended purpose. And yes I know it was DM's money, but they did spend time with the BBQ, test, research, etc., etc., together.

It is clear as plate glass to me. But also only my own opinion. I have read your opinions and realize that we differ ... I'm fine with that, and I am sure you are too.

MOO

 

[hellkat2]

Other trials should not be a factor in this one.

I guess if this trial doesn't get them the others will. IMO

 

[Claroon]

Now as we await the verdict, I'm re-reading some of the early reports from May 2013. This is fascinating just how on point this was way back then:


Police are now considering a “thrill kill” as a possible motive for the mysterious slaying of Tim Bosma.

"“It is seriously being looked at,” said one police source. “There is a theory that it was about stealing a truck but also hurting somebody.”

Stealing the truck is definitely also part of it.

“There was an obsession over that truck,” the copper said. “But there is potentially more since it could have easily been stolen anywhere.”

Instead, there was a staged event.

“Twisted would be the word,” an officer said.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/tim-bosmas-murder-may-have-been-thrill-kill-source

 

[ArianeEmory]

Wasn't there a stained board removed from the barn? I don't think it's come into evidence at the trial, so it could (my opinion only) be related to the LB case....

My feeling is that if they believed it was human blood they would have covered that board, not carried it out with the stain in full view of the media. They have been extremely circumspect with physical evidence, to the point of erecting large tents at the farm.

That I said, I recall the board well and it WAS creepy looking, and perhaps it was just mishandled. Or they chose to let the media see it for some unknown reason.