Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

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I find it interesting that so many believe that the friends of DM & MS lied to police and/or lied on the stand (and I think many of them did as well), but as soon as MS said he or she lied or wasn't being honest, it's a 180 and he's the liar. Granted, I think he's lying too about certain things but it's just interesting how that works out.
 
quick google search shows there is a few different ways to steal a vehicle that require a chipped key. doesnt seem as impossible as it made out to be

Yes there is ways but not for two dimwits in the dark. The chip/SKIM key vehicles are not 100% theft proof but makes it tougher for the non-pro car theives to steal.
 
Yes, and he was fired after the police visited the hangar.

There's no reason to believe he would have contacted them if he hadn't realized they were already on to MIllard.

I'm gad he went to the police when he did and I recognize he was pulled in many directions, but we have no idea what he would have done if the Ambition tattoo hadn't led the police to Millard.

He did call CS before LE visited DM, to inquire if it was the Bosma truck. Like you said, he was torn in many directions, and I lean towards him eventually calling with identifiable information based on his initial call. But you are right, the tattoo was key to identifying DM early before much evidence was gone.

MOO
 
that may be the case with your car, still does not change the fact that there is different ways to steal a vehicle that requires a chipped key
Yes but I'm sure there were other security features on this truck other than that. It was much more expensive then my old car
 
Before he got on the stand, Smich presented himself better than DM did, just by not reacting to DM, and not waving to friends, and appearing to take the court seriously.

However, as soon as he got on the stand, he lost any credibility - nothing but lies spouting from his mouth, along with lots of "can't remembers" "don't recalls" and especially tale of burying of his gun. Clearly remembers wrapping it in plastic bag and tape, remembers getting on his bike (with the gun) but doesn't know which direction he went, found himself in a forest somewhere, but doesn't know where, buried gun somewhere, but doesn't know where. Doesn't remember where he went after he left the forest (because that would mean he knew the direction of the forest).

100% guilty (of first degree murder) that's my verdict!

I did not think that one presented better than the other. I also feel that CN presented poorly in the courtroom and her behaviour outside the court re letter writing etc does not fair well either.
 
I don't feel precisely what I expected to feel at this point in the trial. Surely this is all what it looked and felt like it would be, right? Two men who, together, did a terrible, vicious, incomprehensible thing. I am not fully at ease with this in the way I thought I would be.

I was reminded that the Crown is not a beacon of truth but simply another player in the justice system, weaving a story from curated evidence that is no more and no less self-interested that the defense. Sidestepping the earlier truck sightings favour of a tidier and more convenient presentation wasn't without some cynicism. I was not expecting them to pitch the story as two men who plotted for more than a year to steal, murder and incinerate, each element being an indispensable part of the plan. One argument for this was that it doesn't take a year to steal a truck, and yet they had all the elements in place 10 months before Tim was murdered. The arguments lacks an internal consistency and seems precariously and sometimes even gratuitously piled on a record of texts that are at the very least least ambiguous at times. To me there were very clearly weak arguments at times: if your story seems to lean in part on Mark Smich turning his phone off when in reality the evidence weights the other way, I have to ask myself why you feel you need to argue that. Several examples just like that.

I didn't expect to feel so handicapped by trial by Twitter. The, I mean THE thing that pushed me to premeditation was the fireside furniture and sausages texts. It took an outsized meaning here and certainly in my mind and doesn't seem to even have been brought up by Crown in cross. We are missing so much to properly determine guilt, from a complete and unfiltered record to the wealth of information in bearing, body language, facial expressions, tone and all the things we normally use to gauge honesty and intention.

All these things together reminded me of the sobering power of the state and of the collective power of the media to shape narratives and drive public interest or indifference. Wrongful convictions flow from state overreach and greatly benefit from a pubic turned away for one reason or another. Some of the ingredients seem to be in place here and that I think is what leaves me ever so slightly uneasy with this case despite the breadth and depth of the apparent evidence: we have a Crown case that unexpectedly left me scratching my head in spots, the use of rap lyrics to prove an intent to murder, at least one member of the media whose sloppiness heard daily on air spreads ignorance in dribbles or torrents depending on the day, and who directly invites listeners to dismiss Mark Smich on facts she can't even bother to keep straight.

The general wisdom is that juries almost always get it right, so I feel like the best choice for me in this case is simply to defer to that verdict and trust it is rooted in intelligence, collective wisdom and more care for fairness and truth than we've seen from others at times in this case. They know both more and less than we do in all the ways that are supposed to make justice come out right.

Still, the world is not as easily or cleanly divided into good guys and bad guys or truth and lies as we want or imagine it to be. "Sun down in the Paris of the prairies...". It happens everyday, somewhere. And it matters.

So let's get this straight. A model investigation, a mountain of evidence, no allegations of any funny business at the trial, and you seize upon this as an opportunity to post about wrongful convictions, "the sobering power of the state and of the collective power of the media to shape narratives and drive public interest or indifference." Really?
 
It shows his testimony is unreliable and that taints everything he said.
I guess that holds true for most of the witnesses that were connected to DM and MS. So all of their testimony too should be dismissed because it's unreliable? His buddy AM gave 5 statements to police before he "got it right". JMO
 
Convicted murderers train guide dogs in prison and do a fantastic job and this is a kind of rehabilitation for them. It does not change what they did and mean that they should not be punished to the maximum that the law provides. Good people do bad things and Bad people do good things. I am not conflicted at all with regard to Smich's character. It does not effect what I believe he should be sentenced for. Many criminals feel guilt but reoffend despite it. That goes for remorse as well.

I don't disagree with any of this. That's not where my, admittedly minimal, conflict comes from.
 
I find it interesting that so many believe that the friends of DM & MS lied to police and/or lied on the stand (and I think many of them did as well), but as soon as MS said he or she lied or wasn't being honest, it's a 180 and he's the liar. Granted, I think he's lying too about certain things but it's just interesting how that works out.
I'm right there with you on that statement.
 
In the ten days following DMs arrest your little angel Mark Smich managed to deal about a pound of weed, reached out to a known weapons dealer and likely sold at least one gun. Yep, Del's arrest really made him see the light and turn over a new leaf.

Totally in agreement. CN's behaviour has not been stellar either. Letter writing, hiding stuff, her evasiveness on the stand etc. etc.
 
No it wouldn't have been. AJ's call to crime stoppers would have eventually been traced back to him and he would have sung like a canary when they showed up at his front door. Failing that, as soon as a crime stoppers reward was offered, one of Millards minions would have eventually ratted him out.

Agreed.
 
I guess that holds true for most of the witnesses that were connected to DM and MS. So all of their testimony too should be dismissed because it's unreliable? His buddy AM gave 5 statements to police before he "got it right". JMO
Wasn't that hagerman? I could be wrong but I thought that was hagerman
 
I guess that holds true for most of the witnesses that were connected to DM and MS. So all of their testimony too should be dismissed because it's unreliable? His buddy AM gave 5 statements to police before he "got it right". JMO
If that's how you feel then sure. Really anything important than AM said was corroborated by MM or others.
 
Of course, they're different. This is a self selecting group of people who come here to discuss crime. Many not only want to know "the truth." They are convinced they can find it. Over and over again, we see posters who think they know more than recognized authorities like the police (Yes, there is a third suspect), forensics experts (he must have been shot from behind), the lawyers (DM's lawyers are so awful), etc.

I see a huge difference between people who go online to discuss this case and those I talk to in the real world about it. There is a large streak of conspiratorial thinking online in the refusal to accept recognized authorities and the conviction of certain posters that they know better. I doubt there are going to be jury members insisting there's a third suspect.



I've seen you say this many times but it doesn't matter if the evidence is more damning to one than the other. In cases where there is more than one accused, it they all planned and committed a murder, they're all guilty. One doesn't get off because s/he is a marginally less despicable person than the other co-accused.




Being a juror is our responsibility as citizens. No one is taking it lightly. There is nothing morally or ethically superior about having a hard time making decisions. There is no reason to think that taking a long time to decide leads to a better decision. You seem to be suggesting that people who have come to a conclusion are taking it more "lightly" than you are.

Everybody discusses things and contributes to discussion on this forum in their own manner. I do not think that conspiratorial thinking is mutually exclusive from accepting recognized authorities evidence. I would think most people even the authorities apply a combination of the two in any investigation and trial. I like that you state your truth. I often have things removed for speaking mine because I discuss things that are not directly related to the trial or are too far back or are not based on fact. I try my best but get off track and have to accept that the forum person has what is affectionately referred to as the rules and it is their right to remove. It has been a bit of a learning curve but I do read everything so I can't blame my posts on ignorance. Can't or won't. (joking here).
 
If that's how you feel then sure. Really anything important than AM said was corroborated by MM or others.
AM was just an example. Of course stories were corroborated. Nothing stopped any of these people from talking to each other. IMO If you notice the 2 that did have a falling out by their own admission (MH and AM), their stories didn't exactly line up.
 
You know...I keep thinking about this incinerator. I think the vast majority of us do not believe it was intended to be used in the way DM's lawyers presented it (animal incineration business.) I don't think even DM is daft enough to believe that a homemade incinerator put together by SS would be passable for use in a veterinarian business model either. So that leaves us with the true intent of his purchase being to dispose of bodies. We know poor Tim met that fate and the hunch many have is that LB may have met the same. Think about this...had DM and MS gotten away with this one, how many more would have followed? Who amongst us are the lucky ones that didn't meet this fate as a result of them being caught? Is there a boat owner out there that may have met the same fate? What did DM want next? Another truck? Trailer? Once they proved to themselves that the disposal plan was infallible...who knows if they would have stopped. MOO and general ramblings for a Thursday morning.

Totally agree.
 
There is also the fact that these discussion sites have people joining at any point in time, not being aware of previous evidence as well as people who only read the occasional page making up a theory based on limited information. People seem to think it's okay to form your own definition of terms such as reasonable. I hope there is a skill testing question to potential jurors such as "what is reason". I can't figure out why we need amateur, part-time judges deciding people's fate?

Because it's something that people choose to do and there is a forum to do it in and it is thought provoking to hear what other people think.
 
AM was just an example. Of course stories were corroborated. Nothing stopped any of these people from talking to each other. IMO If you notice the 2 that did have a falling out by their own admission (MH and AM), their stories didn't exactly line up.
What I'm trying to say is you can disregard any testimony you feel is unreliable. That leaves you with the people who had no reason to lie like IT, SB and RB who place them at the scene and the text messages that show planning.

Then you can consider MM and BD who have no connection or don't like DM and judge whether you believe them or not.
 
Can they actually trace the Crimestoppers call? I thought they guarantee anonymity. I'd like to think that eventually AJ would call police, though.
How do the awards work? Do you have to ID yourself?

That is an excellent question. How would they guarantee anonymity when they are writing cheques to people who report crimes.
 
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