Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[mimimic]

AFTER the police showed up at the hangar.....he knew they were onto DM......had the police not shown up at the hangar who knows if he would have come forward.....MOO

Maybe he would have, i don't thik SS would have though!

 

[Errrr]

You know...I keep thinking about this incinerator. I think the vast majority of us do not believe it was intended to be used in the way DM's lawyers presented it (animal incineration business.) I don't think even DM is daft enough to believe that a homemade incinerator put together by SS would be passable for use in a veterinarian business model either. So that leaves us with the true intent of his purchase being to dispose of bodies. We know poor Tim met that fate and the hunch many have is that LB may have met the same. Think about this...had DM and MS gotten away with this one, how many more would have followed? Who amongst us are the lucky ones that didn't meet this fate as a result of them being caught? Is there a boat owner out there that may have met the same fate? What did DM want next? Another truck? Trailer? Once they proved to themselves that the disposal plan was infallible...who knows if they would have stopped. MOO and general ramblings for a Thursday morning.

And we know DM didn't just steal things he needed, just anything would do. Nobody would have been safe!
When I read the plot of that Fargo inspiration where the guy disposes of his stewardess wife in a wood chipper, I think of Maddy Burns. Why did WM allow the purchase of a $15000 incinerator?
She had better hope DM stays in jail for the rest of her life because I can't see another source of income for him.
I can't wait to hear the REAL purpose of that truck MS alluded to.

 

[hellkat2]

The more and more I think about this case the more I think it was about a planned murder and the truck was just the icing on the cake. Even them showing their faces and being sketchy if they wanted to steal that truck later that night or the next day it could have been done no issue. Truck theft is so big in this area that the police would've taken a statement and even though so sketchy people were by the night before it would likely have been still chalked up to being on the reserve gutted and torched. That's what happens with the majority of truck thefts here.

I still don't grasp the scoping either. Why see if you like it? Steal it and then see if you do. If not chop it down sell its parts and buy one legitimately. These guys were involved in enough thefts and criminal activity to know that parts sell quick and chopped down more then an entire truck.


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And they two of them arrived late because the light of day is not their friend given their planned mission.

 

[hellkat2]

One thing that seems to keep being a sticking point for me, that still gives me the tiniest bit of doubt about Smich's knowledge of the plan ahead of time, is the fact that he truly does seem like he's cleaned up his act and is a very different person now and I could see how someone in his position would only make the decision to testify because he felt the need to come clean about what happened, being overcome with guilt. But on the other hand, has he changed so much that he wouldn't tell half-truths to mostly cover his own *advertiser censored*? Is that even real change at all?
I'm like 95% on him. But the other 5% can see how it's possible he really wasn't expecting DM to do what he did.


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There is good and bad in everyone. It is human. It always seems to be a matter of degree. How much bad and how much good.

 

[hellkat2]

For those that are asking about the chip key. YES, TB'S truck had the chip key.

What is a chip key? I am looking it up but am not getting anything conclusive.

 

[hellkat2]

Yes but if Igor hadn't given them the tattoo, they would have reached a dead end. As I said earlier, the only other possibility I see is cell tower dumps looking for the common numbers that were in Ancaster MOnday night and Igor's tower range Sunday afternoon.

Igor didn't give them Millard, he gave them a tattoo and an Indiana Jones satchel. (But I don't believe the cops mentioned the satchel at the tattoo press conference.)

It is interesting that many criminals who should want to 'lay low" and "blend in" often have a lot of identifying tattoos. Some identifying that they have been in prison. What is with that? You would think they would not be this flagrant but yet a lot of them are.

 

[Miranda16]

That white van.
They were just getting set up.

Have the specific modifications been revealed? How was it to be used?

 

[Miranda16]

What is a chip key? I am looking it up but am not getting anything conclusive.

a security feature where the engine will only start if the correct chip is detected, I think. You may not be able to get it out of park without the key either.

 

[Inspector_North]

What is a chip key? I am looking it up but am not getting anything conclusive.

Many automotive keys also include a 'electronic chip' embedded in the key. It provides a digital code to provide additional security. If you go in and ask to have a duplicate key made, and they quote around $15 dollars, there is no chip. On the other hand if the key quote is $50 and up, you got a chip key. They not only have to get the key teeth correct, but must also program the chip.

The teeth alone will usually open doors etc., but the ignition requires the chip to start. Many newer vehicles are key-less and use a proximity wireless key system.

Hope this helps.

MOO

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

This is all after the fact stuff. It doesn't show premeditation for murder IMO

It shows his testimony is unreliable and that taints everything he said.

 

[torontoguy31]

Thank you for answering that.

If we believe MS, he said they were going to test drive the truck, go back & steal it. Without the transponder key, how did they expect to do that?

They left prints on IT's truck & showed their faces to him when they test-drove his truck. Was the plan to steal his truck as well, so those things didn't matter...was it planned that he would be another fatality?

$15K for the Eliminator, additional $$ to modify it to attach to a trailer...for a $24K truck?

(I'm sorry in advance as I'm sure these questions have been asked and answered. I wasn't able to follow the thread on WS as much as I wanted to )

quick google search shows there is a few different ways to steal a vehicle that require a chipped key. doesnt seem as impossible as it made out to be

 

[JuneBug67]

I don't feel precisely what I expected to feel at this point in the trial. Surely this is all what it looked and felt like it would be, right? Two men who, together, did a terrible, vicious, incomprehensible thing. I am not fully at ease with this in the way I thought I would be.

I was reminded that the Crown is not a beacon of truth but simply another player in the justice system, weaving a story from curated evidence that is no more and no less self-interested that the defense. Sidestepping the earlier truck sightings favour of a tidier and more convenient presentation wasn't without some cynicism. I was not expecting them to pitch the story as two men who plotted for more than a year to steal, murder and incinerate, each element being an indispensable part of the plan. One argument for this was that it doesn't take a year to steal a truck, and yet they had all the elements in place 10 months before Tim was murdered. The arguments lacks an internal consistency and seems precariously and sometimes even gratuitously piled on a record of texts that are at the very least least ambiguous at times. To me there were very clearly weak arguments at times: if your story seems to lean in part on Mark Smich turning his phone off when in reality the evidence weights the other way, I have to ask myself why you feel you need to argue that. Several examples just like that.

I didn't expect to feel so handicapped by trial by Twitter. The, I mean THE thing that pushed me to premeditation was the fireside furniture and sausages texts. It took an outsized meaning here and certainly in my mind and doesn't seem to even have been brought up by Crown in cross. We are missing so much to properly determine guilt, from a complete and unfiltered record to the wealth of information in bearing, body language, facial expressions, tone and all the things we normally use to gauge honesty and intention.

All these things together reminded me of the sobering power of the state and of the collective power of the media to shape narratives and drive public interest or indifference. Wrongful convictions flow from state overreach and greatly benefit from a pubic turned away for one reason or another. Some of the ingredients seem to be in place here and that I think is what leaves me ever so slightly uneasy with this case despite the breadth and depth of the apparent evidence: we have a Crown case that unexpectedly left me scratching my head in spots, the use of rap lyrics to prove an intent to murder, at least one member of the media whose sloppiness heard daily on air spreads ignorance in dribbles or torrents depending on the day, and who directly invites listeners to dismiss Mark Smich on facts she can't even bother to keep straight.

The general wisdom is that juries almost always get it right, so I feel like the best choice for me in this case is simply to defer to that verdict and trust it is rooted in intelligence, collective wisdom and more care for fairness and truth than we've seen from others at times in this case. They know both more and less than we do in all the ways that are supposed to make justice come out right.

Still, the world is not as easily or cleanly divided into good guys and bad guys or truth and lies as we want or imagine it to be. "Sun down in the Paris of the prairies...". It happens everyday, somewhere. And it matters.

 

[hellkat2]

Before he got on the stand, Smich presented himself better than DM did, just by not reacting to DM, and not waving to friends, and appearing to take the court seriously.

However, as soon as he got on the stand, he lost any credibility - nothing but lies spouting from his mouth, along with lots of "can't remembers" "don't recalls" and especially tale of burying of his gun. Clearly remembers wrapping it in plastic bag and tape, remembers getting on his bike (with the gun) but doesn't know which direction he went, found himself in a forest somewhere, but doesn't know where, buried gun somewhere, but doesn't know where. Doesn't remember where he went after he left the forest (because that would mean he knew the direction of the forest).

100% guilty (of first degree murder) that's my verdict!

Maybe he taped it to the bottom of his skateboard and forgot it was there and then went skateboarding and it accidentally fell off and somebody picked it up and walked off with it. That is as viable as anything I heard regarding the gun disappearance.

 

[ABro]

As soon as AJ was fired for calling crime stoppers he called the police for real.

Yes, and he was fired after the police visited the hangar.

There's no reason to believe he would have contacted them if he hadn't realized they were already on to MIllard.

I'm gad he went to the police when he did and I recognize he was pulled in many directions, but we have no idea what he would have done if the Ambition tattoo hadn't led the police to Millard.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Of course, they're different. This is a self selecting group of people who come here to discuss crime. Many not only want to know "the truth." They are convinced they can find it. Over and over again, we see posters who think they know more than recognized authorities like the police (Yes, there is a third suspect), forensics experts (he must have been shot from behind), the lawyers (DM's lawyers are so awful), etc.

I see a huge difference between people who go online to discuss this case and those I talk to in the real world about it. There is a large streak of conspiratorial thinking online in the refusal to accept recognized authorities and the conviction of certain posters that they know better. I doubt there are going to be jury members insisting there's a third suspect.



I've seen you say this many times but it doesn't matter if the evidence is more damning to one than the other. In cases where there is more than one accused, it they all planned and committed a murder, they're all guilty. One doesn't get off because s/he is a marginally less despicable person than the other co-accused.




Being a juror is our responsibility as citizens. No one is taking it lightly. There is nothing morally or ethically superior about having a hard time making decisions. There is no reason to think that taking a long time to decide leads to a better decision. You seem to be suggesting that people who have come to a conclusion are taking it more "lightly" than you are.

Somehow you seem to have misunderstood much of what I said.

I said I don't think the members of the jury are that different than folks here and that is in the context of being a group of regular folks that want to see justice. I wasn't talking about all that other stuff.

Maybe I've misunderstood but I was under the impression that the jury can come back with different verdicts for each accused? If I have that right, then yes, it would matter if the evidence appears more damning toward one over the other in that the jury's verdict might be different for DM, than for MS.

As for jury duty, I have no idea how you came up with what you've said. I never said anyone was taking it lightly, nor did I imply or suggest anything else you mentioned. Those jurors have my admiration and respect, as it's a very serious matter.

 

[Mscree]

quick google search shows there is a few different ways to steal a vehicle that require a chipped key. doesnt seem as impossible as it made out to be

My old car was 2002 if you started it without the chipped key and managed to drive it, it would shut off the fuel supply to the engine

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Yes, and he was fired after the police visited the hangar.

There's no reason to believe he would have contacted them if he hadn't realized they were already on to MIllard.

I'm gad he went to the police when he did and I recognize he was pulled in many directions, but we have no idea what he would have done if the Ambition tattoo hadn't led the police to Millard.

Seems very likely they could have gotten away with it if Igor wasnt so intimidating to them and they had gone through with it with him.

 

[torontoguy31]

My old car was 2002 if you started it without the chipped key and managed to drive it, it would shut off the fuel supply to the engine

that may be the case with your car, still does not change the fact that there is different ways to steal a vehicle that requires a chipped key

 

[hellkat2]

One thing that seems to keep being a sticking point for me, that still gives me the tiniest bit of doubt about Smich's knowledge of the plan ahead of time, is the fact that he truly does seem like he's cleaned up his act and is a very different person now and I could see how someone in his position would only make the decision to testify because he felt the need to come clean about what happened, being overcome with guilt. But on the other hand, has he changed so much that he wouldn't tell half-truths to mostly cover his own *advertiser censored*? Is that even real change at all?
I'm like 95% on him. But the other 5% can see how it's possible he really wasn't expecting DM to do what he did.


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Convicted murderers train guide dogs in prison and do a fantastic job and this is a kind of rehabilitation for them. It does not change what they did and mean that they should not be punished to the maximum that the law provides. Good people do bad things and Bad people do good things. I am not conflicted at all with regard to Smich's character. It does not effect what I believe he should be sentenced for. Many criminals feel guilt but reoffend despite it. That goes for remorse as well.

 

[Katpaws]

In the ten days following DMs arrest your little angel Mark Smich managed to deal about a pound of weed, reached out to a known weapons dealer and likely sold at least one gun. Yep, Del's arrest really made him see the light and turn over a new leaf.

"little angel"? Saying I still have some doubt about his premeditation doesn't somehow make me think he's an angel. That's pretty unfair.