Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

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"I can't stop thinking about what that family is going through," read one text Millard sent to Schlatman. He previously told Schlatman that he "bought the truck in Kitchener."


"I want to take it back, but I'm a little concerned about how that is going to play out," another text read.

DM admits to having the truck but what about TIM??? How did he explain Tim's disappearance to Shane??

Those are dummy texts to Shane S who already knew that Tim Bosma was DEAD and BURNED in the incinerator. He saw the blood, the broken window. Shame on them all. JMO
 
It was said that DM instigated all missions. That is false.
Should I clarify and say the missions DM instigated we have proof of success. By way of stolen items found in his possession or by testimony. Is there proof of any successful MS missions or that they even happened or came to fruition other then talk? By talk I mean a few texts a year in advance of the TB murder. Did anyone testify they went on a mission MS planned? Would that satisfy the masses?
 
We have no idea who instigated what. We know that DM got HIS friends involved.

This is just debate for the sake of debate at this point.
 
We have no idea who instigated what. We know that DM got HIS friends involved.

This is just debate for the sake of debate at this point.
We have witness testimony DM got his friends involved yes. We have proof of items DM arranged to have stolen for HIS use. Considering none of these witnesses wanted to admit to anything I think that outweighs 2 texts from a year prior that MS was planning these grand missions. But I'm not looking to change anyone's opinion. Just commenting like everyone else.
 
Why count? We have witnesses testifying to the fact DM would call them for missions.

For me it's not who initiated the mission since there is evidence both discussed the new improved missions. The missions that would build an empire, and require taking it from the source. Both knew of this plan to escalate the number and risk to take these missions to the next level.

DM already had a willing partner in this plan to get serious about profiting from missions, and that was MS. DM was starting on his second (maybe third if you count SS) willing partner when he tested AM about taking then to $100,000/month and mentioning the new methods may not be for the faint of heart.

Remember that DM put the challenge of the new plan for missions to AM just a month before TB was the victim of these new improved missions.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 14s15 seconds ago
April 5, 2013 Texts btwn Michalski and Millard. Millard says he needs to make $100,000/month "and I'll be out of the hole." Hangar mortgage.

MOO
 
No. Now count how many DM initiated.

I don't think the texts are that useful only because majority of the planning for sure will have been done in person as you can tell these guys talked in code and were very vague in their texts on purpose. We had a bit of a glimpse into Millard's planning when he sends his gf letters telling her to memorize and destroy them. I wonder if that's what they did for planning too, memorize and then destroy. Texts would probably not even cover 1% of how much they probably communicated in relation to this plan.
 
Actually it does matter very much, because, as we have been told repeatedly it is the totality of the evidence and if this is not proven I really don't feel that there is any more premeditation on MS part then there is with AM, CN or SS. Apparently what sets MS apart from the rest of the gang IS the fact that he WAS with DM on that night

Let's say that you looked out your window last night before you went to bed and saw that your lawn was completely clear.

When you woke up this morning, you looked out your window and saw that your lawn was covered in snow.

The most reasonable conclusion that you could possibly come to is that it snowed overnight. Even though you actually didn't see it snow, common sense tells you that it did, in fact, snow.

If instead you concluded that a snow-making machine had come to your house overnight and dumped snow on your lawn, that would be a highly unlikely conclusion to come to, an unreasonable conclusion, don't you think?

And although you don't have all the answers regarding the time it began snowing, the temperature when it snowed, when it stopped snowing, etc., most probably, and beyond a doubt, you can reasonably say it snowed last night.

We will never have all the answers to our questions in this trial. As another poster said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
We can't settle on one or two stubborn unanswerable questions and say we want the absolute proof of something in particular answered before we can come to the most reasonable conclusion.


Using the simple snow example above:

MS and DM had established a close bond and committed numerous criminal acts together over a period of a few years. It delighted them.

A loaded illegal gun was purchased, both knew about it, both handled it, bullets were stolen by DM in order for MS to practice. It delighted them.

A livestock incinerator was purchased, and research done about it by MS. Both DM and MS worked/moved/discussed this BBQ. It was very important to both of them with regard to their mission, and it had no legitimate purpose, a very costly investment.

I won't go into the most reasonable explanations for the text messages because billandrew's posts and many other WSers have already done that so well.

A burner phone is purchased and registered in the name of Lucas Bate, its sole purpose to contact potential victims for test drives of 3500s.

In the days leading up to Tim's murder, there are steps being taken by MS and DM such as checking out the incinerator, and excitement detailed in the text messages, such as "Fireworks tonight."

Both go to Tim's for the test drive. Tragically, Tim is murdered and incinerated.

DM and MS spend days getting rid of evidence, all the while carrying on texting each other in the same manner of bonding that they had shown previously.

Happy that their mission was a success.

The most probable, the most reasonable conclusion, beyond a reasonable doubt, that one can come to is that DM and MS murdered Tim and stole his truck. And that the acts were premeditated together, therefore they are both guilty of 1st Degree Murder.

Anything else is highly unlikely.

All questions cannot possibly be answered because of the nature of crime and criminals and whatever evidence they have left behind. To refuse to come to a reasonable conclusion based solely on a question to which you personally require an absolute and satisfactory answer should not be necessary, and it is counter-intuitive.

As always, MHO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
We have witness testimony DM got his friends involved yes. We have proof of items DM arranged to have stolen for HIS use. Considering none of these witnesses wanted to admit to anything I think that outweighs 2 texts from a year prior that MS was planning these grand missions. But I'm not looking to change anyone's opinion. Just commenting like everyone else.

Very true, but we see a definite change in DM's seriousness towards missions just a month before TB's murder. Things went south for DM when he was stuck with a $3.7 million hanger mortgage after his father's death. From December to April, DM was juggling cash flow and trying to hang on to assets.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 14s15 seconds ago
April 5, 2013
Texts btwn Michalski and Millard. Millard says he needs to make $100,000/month "and I'll be out of the hole." Hangar mortgage.

The previous missions that were mentioned by witnesses were early missions that DM organized before his dad's death, and before he was on the hook for Millard Air financial obligations. DM planned along with willing partners to take missions to a level that they would be the answer to his new financial situation.

MOO
 
You can see how you want it I never said he was innocent but I don't believe they knew anything of a murder
 
Who said anybody snitched on Smich? I always assumed that once Millard was arrested and they had his phone, cops keyed in on Smich. AM ad MH were still lying through their teeth at that time weren't they?

It was said in testimony that hagerman called crime stoppers to report smich
 
Very true, but we see a definite change in DM's seriousness towards missions just a month before TB's murder. Things went south for DM when he was stuck with a $3.7 million hanger mortgage after his father's death. From December to April, DM was juggling cash flow and trying to hang on to assets.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 14s15 seconds ago
April 5, 2013
Texts btwn Michalski and Millard. Millard says he needs to make $100,000/month "and I'll be out of the hole." Hangar mortgage.

The previous missions that were mentioned by witnesses were early missions that DM organized before his dad's death, and before he was on the hook for Millard Air financial obligations. DM planned along with willing partners to take missions to a level that they would be the answer to his new financial situation.

MOO

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml

Based on the link below, if you're highlighting texts the month before in regards to DM and MS texts, this is the evidence. Tons of talk about details between DM and AM. No reference to dangerous missions or money to MS. If we're using the fact they likely spoke in person, AM was his roommate and close friend at the time. MS lived at his mother's and MM sister's during this same timeframe.
 
I am not attempting to stop you from voicing your opinion. As I have stated previously I truly am trying to understand your perspective. But very often when you are asked questions, you don't answer those questions directly. I can see that it is pointless to ask any more questions, so I will just read your posts from now on.

MOO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I answer questions I'm asked or others have referenced. Forgive me if it feels as if I'm answering every single poster at times.

When people who have a reasonable doubt DO answer the questions, they are referred to Billandrew's outline or timeline and asked if we read it.

I'm not sure what more I can comment on except to say yes I've read it. And yes I've followed along for 3 yrs. And yes I followed the trial. And yes I felt up until trial they were both guilty.

If there are other questions I haven't answered it may be because I'm being asked why I'm making excuses for MS. Or why I'm focusing on one area of evidence when that is actually what is being discussed at the time. Not the only thing I'm focusing on.

I've noticed in the poll (which I have not weighed in on btw in regards to MS,) there are more people who obviously share some of my opinions, but are not posting them. I wonder why that is?
 
With all due respect Mrs T, I took the text messages highlighted as MS "mission prep" that someone else posted and offered a rebuttal. I don't feel I took anything out of context, (unlike the sausage photos and fireside furniture that went on for days), but please let me know where I did.

I'm not trying to prove any point. This is the point of discussion that someone else linked. It isn't as if I picked that area of focus. And if others have more then the highlighted texts to show mission prep, then great.

That being said it seems every.single.poster that sees reasonable doubt cant tie the evidence together. Or must not be seeing something. It's condescending. But it won't stop me from voicing my opinion in a respectful manner.

I see the gap between opinions as a pretty basic difference between styles of reasoning. Part of reasoning is about what to keep and what to discard, about what is vital and relevant and what does not adequately support the conclusion it seeks to support. In my view, and I think yours as well, there has been a leap by the crown in concluding the malevolent and continuous intention of many of the individual texts. In short, for you and I (and others) some of those are crappy bricks to build a wall of evidence with. I have no lack of understanding in how people who are confident of premeditation built that wall, so the careful explaining of the reasoning over and over again while well intended is not that helpful: we simply disagree on the strength and suitability of the bricks chosen to build it in the first place. Essentially, the quality of the evidence is as important as its quantity, and what we disagree on is the quality.

If you were to ask me what happened that night and what I thought about who did what, I couldn't tell you. I am only as far as having doubt about the Crown's case as I perceive it was presented. If I were in the courtroom I might feel completely differently and the evidence may be much more complete and cohesive in that view than it appears to me from here. If the verdict comes back as a double conviction for first degree I would accept and even welcome that, assuming then that they had enough, that they had more than I perceive them to have from here. But if that jury has some of the same doubts on premeditation as are expressed here, I don't envy them figuring out where to go next.
 
I see the gap between opinions as a pretty basic difference between styles of reasoning. Part of reasoning is about what to keep and what to discard, about what is vital and relevant and what does not adequately support the conclusion it seeks to support. In my view, and I think yours as well, there has been a leap by the crown in concluding the malevolent and continuous intention of many of the individual texts. In short, for you and I (and others) some of those are crappy bricks to build a wall of evidence with. I have no lack of understanding in how people who are confident of premeditation built that wall, so the careful explaining of the reasoning over and over again while well intended is not that helpful: we simply disagree on the strength and suitability of the bricks chosen to build it in the first place. Essentially, the quality of the evidence is as important as its quantity, and what we disagree on is the quality.

If you were to ask me what happened that night and what I thought about who did what, I couldn't tell you. I am only as far as having doubt about the Crown's case as I perceive it was presented. If I were in the courtroom I might feel completely differently and the evidence may be much more complete and cohesive in that view than it appears to me from here. If the verdict comes back as a double conviction for first degree I would accept and even welcome that, assuming then that they had enough, that they had more than I perceive them to have from here. But if that jury has some of the same doubts on premeditation as are expressed here, I don't envy them figuring out where to go next.

Thank you for your well thought out post. I think that sums it up nicely. :)
 
I answer questions I'm asked or others have referenced. Forgive me if it feels as if I'm answering every single poster at times.

When people who have a reasonable doubt DO answer the questions, they are referred to Billandrew's outline or timeline and asked if we read it.

I'm not sure what more I can comment on except to say yes I've read it. And yes I've followed along for 3 yrs. And yes I followed the trial. And yes I felt up until trial they were both guilty.

If there are other questions I haven't answered it may be because I'm being asked why I'm making excuses for MS. Or why I'm focusing on one area of evidence when that is actually what is being discussed at the time. Not the only thing I'm focusing on.

I've noticed in the poll (which I have not weighed in on btw in regards to MS,) there are more people who obviously share some of my opinions, but are not posting them. I wonder why that is?

I think the difference amounts to you just have a lower requirement for reasonable doubt. And the problem is that requirement will be different from person to person. I can see a scenario where Smich doesn't know what's about to go down, but helps his buddy clean up because he feels like he's his bro and owes it to him. But for me that's a scenario that is just too unlikely given everything we know, but in the absence of a written out, texted, or documented plan I can see where people might have hesitation. The key word being what's a 'reasonable' doubt. Any doubt? Does it have to a have a 10% probability of being true? And then there's people on the other end of the spectrum who think everyone involved in Millard's circle knew about it and should be charged.
 
I don't think the texts are that useful only because majority of the planning for sure will have been done in person as you can tell these guys talked in code and were very vague in their texts on purpose. We had a bit of a glimpse into Millard's planning when he sends his gf letters telling her to memorize and destroy them. I wonder if that's what they did for planning too, memorize and then destroy. Texts would probably not even cover 1% of how much they probably communicated in relation to this plan.

Very true. I would just like to add that I imagine that the nature of their ambiguous texts or code were something they enjoyed together something like an "inside joke" that only the two of them could share. Much like the ryhming or rap lyrics they seemed to enjoy. I take the fireside furniture and frying sausages seriously for that reason. Another obvious example is the BBQ, although that term was more widely shared. I can't remember if I posted this here but is anyone aware that Lucas Bate contains the letters 'steal a cbu" cbu = completely built unit, or LB for Laura Babcock. And don't forget Smich's avatar on the steam gaming website that was updated just 2 weeks before his father's death. I think they may have thought they were very clever in disguising their actions and activities in such benign ways and mocking everyone else in the process.
 
Very true. I would just like to add that I imagine that the nature of their ambiguous texts or code were something they enjoyed together something like an "inside joke" that only the two of them could share. Much like the ryhming or rap lyrics they seemed to enjoy. I take the fireside furniture and frying sausages seriously for that reason. Another obvious example is the BBQ, although that term was more widely shared. I can't remember if I posted this here but is anyone aware that Lucas Bate contains the letters 'steal a cbu" cbu = completely built unit, or LB for Laura Babcock. And don't forget Smich's avatar on the steam gaming website that was updated just 2 weeks before his father's death. I think they may have thought they were very clever in disguising their actions and activities in such benign ways and mocking everyone else in the process.

BBM - pretty sure this was DM's avatar....MOO
 
In a jury room, a dissenter would have to directly answer questions and defend their points. Misdirection and moving the goalposts would not be as easy to accomplish than on a message board.
 
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