Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

[JuneBug67]

Speaking of the fireside furniture texts, am I correct in thinking that they didn't come up in either cross or the close?

 

[XiolaBlueX]

I think the difference amounts to you just have a lower requirement for reasonable doubt. And the problem is that requirement will be different from person to person. I can see a scenario where Smich doesn't know what's about to go down, but helps his buddy clean up because he feels like he's his bro and owes it to him. But for me that's a scenario that is just too unlikely given everything we know, but in the absence of a written out, texted, or documented plan I can see where people might have hesitation. The key word being what's a 'reasonable' doubt. Any doubt? Does it have to a have a 10% probability of being true? And then there's people on the other end of the spectrum who think everyone involved in Millard's circle knew about it and should be charged.

IMO, the judges charge to the jury is going to firm all of this up for the jurors, in terms of what the legal definition is of beyond a reasonable doubt, etc. And what this entails.
Unless something changes for me tomorrow morning, I am able to go to the court to observe. I'll let WS's know if I have any context to add to those good ole tweets.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I think the difference amounts to you just have a lower requirement for reasonable doubt. And the problem is that requirement will be different from person to person. I can see a scenario where Smich doesn't know what's about to go down, but helps his buddy clean up because he feels like he's his bro and owes it to him. But for me that's a scenario that is just too unlikely given everything we know, but in the absence of a written out, texted, or documented plan I can see where people might have hesitation. The key word being what's a 'reasonable' doubt. Any doubt? Does it have to a have a 10% probability of being true? And then there's people on the other end of the spectrum who think everyone involved in Millard's circle knew about it and should be charged.

It is interesting that you mention here the quantification of reasonable doubt. A few days ago, I was reading test studies done in UK universities that concluded that "beyond a reasonable doubt" i.e. sure, not certain, of a persons's guilt, falls into in the range of 90-92%.

I found that to be interesting, although I know that quantification of reasonable doubt is not used as an explanation of what reasonable doubt is in the judge's instructions, and probably for good reason.

MOO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JuneBug67]

Very true. I would just like to add that I imagine that the nature of their ambiguous texts or code were something they enjoyed together something like an "inside joke" that only the two of them could share. Much like the ryhming or rap lyrics they seemed to enjoy. I take the fireside furniture and frying sausages seriously for that reason. Another obvious example is the BBQ, although that term was more widely shared. I can't remember if I posted this here but is anyone aware that Lucas Bate contains the letters 'steal a cbu" cbu = completely built unit, or LB for Laura Babcock. And don't forget Smich's avatar on the steam gaming website that was updated just 2 weeks before his father's death. I think they may have thought they were very clever in disguising their actions and activities in such benign ways and mocking everyone else in the process.

I think some people are less confident that is was a 'we' rather than a 'me'. There is little doubt in my head that DM is a dangerous and abnormal person. There remains some doubt for me about the degree to which MS was brought into the full darkness of his mind. DM is f'ed up enough that MS could have been just another guy in a side car in his life, who conveniently liked thieving and drugs and was comfortable with guns and the underbelly of life, who ended up dragged farther in than he anticipated or intended. In short, what was roiling in DM's head was not necessarily in MS's.

 

[teamsundin]

It is interesting that you mention here the quantification of reasonable doubt. A few days ago, I was reading test studies done in UK universities that concluded that "beyond a reasonable doubt" i.e. sure, not certain, of a persons's guilt, falls into in the range of 90-92%.

I found that to be interesting, although I know that quantification of reasonable doubt is not used as an explanation of what reasonable doubt is in the judge's instructions, and probably for good reason.

MOO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The obvious problem there is how do you assign a percentage. I don't think you can take subjectivity out of it

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

IMO, the judges charge to the jury is going to firm all of this up for the jurors, in terms of what the legal definition is of beyond a reasonable doubt, etc. And what this entails.
Unless something changes for me tomorrow morning, I am able to go to the court to observe. I'll let WS's know if I have any context to add to those good ole tweets.

Wonderful!!! Keeping my fingers crossed that you are able to attend! Looking forward to reading your posts. Thank you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

The obvious problem there is how do you assign a percentage. I don't think you can take subjectivity out of it

Yes, that is very true. It was interesting to read about though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[XiolaBlueX]

Very true. I would just like to add that I imagine that the nature of their ambiguous texts or code were something they enjoyed together something like an "inside joke" that only the two of them could share. Much like the ryhming or rap lyrics they seemed to enjoy. I take the fireside furniture and frying sausages seriously for that reason. Another obvious example is the BBQ, although that term was more widely shared. I can't remember if I posted this here but is anyone aware that Lucas Bate contains the letters 'steal a cbu" cbu = completely built unit, or LB for Laura Babcock. And don't forget Smich's avatar on the steam gaming website that was updated just 2 weeks before his father's death. I think they may have thought they were very clever in disguising their actions and activities in such benign ways and mocking everyone else in the process.

This may have ready been mentioned on here before, but Luke Bates is the name of a rapper.... Maybe this had something to do with it?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4EB1geHhkE4

 

[canadiangirl]

IMO, the judges charge to the jury is going to firm all of this up for the jurors, in terms of what the legal definition is of beyond a reasonable doubt, etc. And what this entails.
Unless something changes for me tomorrow morning, I am able to go to the court to observe. I'll let WS's know if I have any context to add to those good ole tweets.

I agree, I've been waiting to hear the judges charge myself. Glad you'll be able to attend and report back. Get there early with a coffee as per SC.

 

[andreww]

It was said in testimony that hagerman called crime stoppers to report smich

Ah yes, Mr. Haggerman, the only one in the crew that showed any emotion whatsoever. And Dungay made him his b!tch.

 

[Sillybilly]

This has been posted before, but for those interested in how the Supreme Court of Canada suggests a Judge address the matter of "reasonable doubt":

from R. v Starr (with reference to the Lifchus decision)
https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1804/index.do

He explained that an appropriate jury instruction on reasonable doubt is a fundamental component of a fair trial, because a jury might otherwise convict the innocent by finding guilt on the basis of mere probability, rather than on the basis of proof to a near certainty as is required in criminal proceedings. In his words, at para. 14: [...]It should be explained that:



• the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt is inextricably intertwined with that principle fundamental to all criminal trials, the presumption of innocence;

• the burden of proof rests on the prosecution throughout the trial and never shifts to the accused;

• a reasonable doubt is not a doubt based upon sympathy or prejudice;

• rather, it is based upon reason and common sense;

• it is logically connected to the evidence or absence of evidence;

• it does not involve proof to an absolute certainty; it is not proof beyond any doubt nor is it an imaginary or frivolous doubt; and

• more is required than proof that the accused is probably guilty -- a jury which concludes only that the accused is probably guilty must acquit. [Emphasis in original.]

 

[andreww]

I agree with the cleaning up part. The following timeline IMO indicates that DM moved from the uncleaned Bosma truck directly to the Yukon without leaving any DNA in the Yukon. Even if he cleaned himself first, he transferred directly from the bloody truck to the Yukon. This suggests that both MS and DM may not have come in contact with blood.

However, you point out a very important observation, the back seat was not removed and was not found to have much DNA evidence. The seat where MS could have been when TB was shot.


12:41 am - The Yukon moves to the south end of the hanger.

12:41 am - There is movement between vehicles suggesting that a person moves from the Bosma truck to the Millard Yukon.

12:42 am - The Millard Yukon leaves the Millard Air Hanger

MOO

People are too influenced by what they see in movies, blood splattering everywhere, in every direction, but most times its simply not like that. In this case the spatter was for the most part limited to the passenger seat area. It is possible that after the shot, TB started bleeding out and a large pool collected in the passenger seat floor pan. I am quite confident that any blood sprayed on Smich or Millard would have been minuscule and would have dried by the time either of them set foot in the Yukon and certainly not have transferred easily. Also quite possible that they anticipated possible transfer and wiped down the driver area of the Yukon.

 

[Sillybilly]

I have doubt about MS's guilt as it relates to either premeditation or confinement, and have been fighting with myself as to whether that doubt is "reasonable" or not. IF I was on the jury and able to concentrate solely on the evidence, possibly that doubt could be eliminated, but as it stands right now, I would not find him guilty of 1st degree murder based on my understanding of the principles of reasonable doubt and the presumption of innocence. If I am to conclude he is NG of 1st degree, it would follow that I would not find him guilty of 2nd degree based on the possibility that he was not present when TB was killed.

(AATF ... absolutely, but I don't think that will be a consideration for the jury).

There, I've said it. Please do not throw eggs at me

 

[RandomName479]

I have doubt about MS's guilt as it relates to either premeditation or confinement, and have been fighting with myself as to whether that doubt is "reasonable" or not. IF I was on the jury and able to concentrate solely on the evidence, possibly that doubt could be eliminated, but as it stands right now, I would not find him guilty of 1st degree murder based on my understanding of the principles of reasonable doubt and the presumption of innocence. If I am to conclude he is NG of 1st degree, it would follow that I would not find him guilty of 2nd degree based on the possibility that he was not present when TB was killed.

(AATF ... absolutely, but I don't think that will be a consideration for the jury).

There, I've said it. Please do not throw eggs at me

I feel exactly the same.......honestly - I wish I didn't.....would be much easier if I saw a clear picture of MS being guilty of 1st....

 

[marymcd]

BBM - pretty sure this was DM's avatar....MOO

Sorry, I meant Millard's. . .my apologies.

 

[Alethea Dice]

So to be clear, when it is said MS planned a bunch of missions. Going by this information we can confirm on May 13 2012 MS was slacking looking for any missions. Then on May 30 2012 bringing mission prep just in case. June 9 2012, he found some small missions but they weren't really important apparently.
I'd be curious to know if anything transpired from these. And this is an entire year before TB.

Fast forward to April/May 2013, 3 texts seemingly talking about the same mission which due to the date we can conclude it was the truck theft.

I'm not sure where the mountains of evidence is coming from. What other texts/evidence am I missing for this particular piece? Yes before anyone points it out I realize it's the "totality".

MM also testified that MS would have her write down addresses of places where DM could steal things when they were out walking. See MH's tweets from April 25th.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zxyo_MC4bf28IMfFvSuu5ETlebQlyw__2QSDhYkGxMU/pubhtml?gid=0&single=false#

Also, the ones from May 2013 refer to "missions" (plural) and "There's a bunch. Missions and more." which would seem to be more than just the truck theft. Sounds to me like MS is actively looking for things to steal.

 

[canadiangirl]

MM also testified that MS would have her write down addresses of places where DM could steal things when they were out walking. See MH's tweets from April 25th.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zxyo_MC4bf28IMfFvSuu5ETlebQlyw__2QSDhYkGxMU/pubhtml?gid=0&single=false#

Also, the ones from May 2013 refer to "missions" (plural) and "There's a bunch. Missions and more." which would seem to be more than just the truck theft. Sounds to me like MS is actively looking for things to steal.

Writing down addresses of places DM could steal things. Sounds like a patsy, just like SS building and buying his boss an incinerator. I don't feel he planned anything effectively and likely not without DM in on it. For one he had no mode of transportation. Sounds like he was looking for opportunities to steal things, but not looking for opportunities to kill someone. MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Should I clarify and say the missions DM instigated we have proof of success. By way of stolen items found in his possession or by testimony. Is there proof of any successful MS missions or that they even happened or came to fruition other then talk? By talk I mean a few texts a year in advance of the TB murder. Did anyone testify they went on a mission MS planned? Would that satisfy the masses?

I hate to be too literal with the facts, but I have a question if anyone knows. Did we ever hear any testimony about whose idea any of the missions (other than the truck) were? I mean other than that DM called people for lookouts and planned how to carry out the missions, has anyone ever made any suggestions as to whose idea it originally was that a particular item might be a good thing to steal? Who may have seen these things somewhere and said 'hey let's see if we can steal that'? It seems like most of the missions were for kicks, to see if they could get away with it, more so than that any of the items were actually needed.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I hate to be too literal with the facts, but I have a question if anyone knows. Did we ever hear any testimony about whose idea any of the missions (other than the truck) were? I mean other than that DM called people for lookouts and planned how to carry out the missions, has anyone ever made any suggestions as to whose idea it originally was that a particular item might be a good thing to steal? Who may have seen these things somewhere and said 'hey let's see if we can steal that'? It seems like most of the missions were for kicks, to see if they could get away with it, more so than that any of the items were actually needed.

The only one I can think of is DM saying he wants a police bike and MS replying done, I think I know a place.

Collaboration.

 

[Georgeo]

Very true. I would just like to add that I imagine that the nature of their ambiguous texts or code were something they enjoyed together something like an "inside joke" that only the two of them could share. Much like the ryhming or rap lyrics they seemed to enjoy. I take the fireside furniture and frying sausages seriously for that reason. Another obvious example is the BBQ, although that term was more widely shared. I can't remember if I posted this here but is anyone aware that Lucas Bate contains the letters 'steal a cbu" cbu = completely built unit, or LB for Laura Babcock. And don't forget Smich's avatar on the steam gaming website that was updated just 2 weeks before his father's death. I think they may have thought they were very clever in disguising their actions and activities in such benign ways and mocking everyone else in the process.

Totally agree with your comments re Lucas Bate and LB. BTW, it was DM's avatar, not SM's. But yes, very odd coincidences for all of this? I think not. Texting in code is DEFINITELY going on by these two, as well as the entourage of DM's friends (AM, MH, CN, etc...).