Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[Sillybilly]

I'm disagreeing with your statement that

Although in this case, it's next to impossible to imagine a scenario in which he wasn't forcibly confined so it's kind of a moot point.

Moot in your opinion, but the discussion may be of interest to others who have presented different scenarios in the past and are not so convinced of the accused being guilty of either premeditation or FC.

FWIW, I believe they are guilty of first degree based on FC AND premeditation. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been ... IF the jury did not find premeditation and did not find forcible confinement, then it would not be first degree murder.

premeditation and forcible confinement > guilty of 1st degree
premeditation only > guilty of 1st degree
forcible confinement only > guilty of 1st degree
no premeditation and no forcible confinement > not guilty of 1st degree but guilty of 2nd degree

LOL, I guess I'm not the greatest wordsmith. If I didn't make myself clear this time, I give.

 

[swedie]

I don't ... it's just speculation. There was an article long ago about how MWJ was seen occasionally hanging on the porch with MS and on one occasion DM was also seen there. Interview with a neighbour I think. These things are hard to find now as it's been a few years. Just like I'm speculating that MWJ was actually supplying the drugs to MS to sell. We know LE allege he supplied the gun(s) to DM.

MOO

ETA: When MWJ was arrested, he was called an "Aspiring gangsta rapper"... which pretty much sums up who MWJ is IMO. The tattoos are for show IMO.

http://news.nationalpost.com/toront...-accused-of-selling-him-alleged-murder-weapon

For Gumshew HTH. Or anyone else who may not have read any information re: MS.

“I wouldn’t recognize him but I always saw them out on the porch just smoking and hanging out,” she said. “I guess you don’t really know your neighbours.”

http://globalnews.ca/news/585372/who-is-mark-smich/

According to residents of the street, Mr. Smich was frequently seen in front of his house with a group of men in their mid-to-late 20s.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ree-murder-in-tim-bosma-case/article12090623/

 

[Gumshew]

I don't ... it's just speculation. There was an article long ago about how MWJ was seen occasionally hanging on the porch with MS and on one occasion DM was also seen there. Interview with a neighbour I think. These things are hard to find now as it's been a few years. Just like I'm speculating that MWJ was actually supplying the drugs to MS to sell. We know LE allege he supplied the gun(s) to DM.

MOO

They all used to party together once in a while too-- DM used to hold awesome and costly parties(so I am told). It could have gone down on a porch, at a party, at one of MJW's car "events",..etc... who knows? I am just of the opinion that MS is showing loyalty to his gang. DM, not so much.

At the moment, the evidence presented by the prosecution has me at almost "100% guilty" for both, but I want to see and hear what the defendants have to present. I think it will be an interesting show if what I think is true-- that one is a snitch and the other a loyalist. Of course, it can turn out to be something totally different.

 

[Ontario Mom]

If MS and DM are going to blame each other (not saying they are) aren't they going to have to get on the stand and explain? If they say the other did it, they will have to explain how they know that therefore admitting they were in that truck which would make them guilty. Sorry about the wording, it always sounds better in my head lol.

Just FYI, pretty much everything I post here almost *always* sounds so much better in my head. Just wanted you to know you're not the only one.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Moot in your opinion, but the discussion may be of interest to others who have presented different scenarios in the past and are not so convinced of the accused being guilty of either premeditation or FC.

FWIW, I believe they are guilty of first degree based on FC AND premeditation. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been ... IF the jury did not find premeditation and did not find forcible confinement, then it would not be first degree murder.

premeditation and forcible confinement > guilty of 1st degree
premeditation only > guilty of 1st degree
forcible confinement only > guilty of 1st degree
no premeditation and no forcible confinement > not guilty of 1st degree but guilty of 2nd degree

LOL, I guess I'm not the greatest wordsmith. If I didn't make myself clear this time, I give.

FWIW, it was perfectly clear to me.

I will say though, I still don't know if it was premeditated to kill Tim, or just premeditated to steal his truck. I do believe, 100% stealing the truck was the plan all along but I admit I've always wondered if Tim didn't *seriously* resist before or even after the gun was pulled, and shooting him was just a means to and end. I suppose we'll never really know, but either way, the murder of Tim Bosma occurred in the commission of a felony (planning to steal his truck).

I realize I'm possibly stating the obvious or what has already been said, but I plead having the flu right now. Yes, this is as good as an excuse as any, right?

 

[LoyalSleuth]

If people are concerned that the word PACIFIC written on MSs shoes is some cryptic gang message, has anyone contacted prison authorities or LE to report it?

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

 

[Kamille]

FWIW, it was perfectly clear to me.

I will say though, I still don't know if it was premeditated to kill Tim, or just premeditated to steal his truck. I do believe, 100% stealing the truck was the plan all along but I admit I've always wondered if Tim didn't *seriously* resist before or even after the gun was pulled, and shooting him was just a means to and end. I suppose we'll never really know, but either way, the murder of Tim Bosma occurred in the commission of a felony (planning to steal his truck).

I realize I'm possibly stating the obvious or what has already been said, but I plead having the flu right now. Yes, this is as good as an excuse as any, right?

Doesn't really matter what transpired to make someone pull the trigger on the gun IMO. The fact that they did shows premeditation to me. It was two against one and they had their own vehicle and a gun. TB was no threat to them. If TB resisted in any way or tried to flee the vehicle while still close to home and in possession of his cell phone, they had the choice to abort the plan and flee in their own vehicle or to kill him. Someone made a premeditated decision to kill him IMO.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

If people are concerned that the word PACIFIC written on MSs shoes is some cryptic gang message, has anyone contacted prison authorities or LE to report it?

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Pretty sure his lawyer has questioned him about it and doesn't find that it's an issue. I would think that if MS said "it's loyalty to my gang" to his lawyer, his lawyer would have given him a rag and some cleaner.

Unless he did and MS put his foot down (pun intended ) and insisted that he wanted to display the word. I don't think he would be that foolish but who knows.

MOO

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Pretty sure his lawyer has questioned him about it and doesn't find that it's an issue. I would think that if MS said "it's loyalty to my gang" to his lawyer, his lawyer would have given him a rag and some cleaner.

Unless he did and MS put his foot down (pun intended ) and insisted that he wanted to display the word. I don't think he would be that foolish but who knows.

MOO

I don't believe it to be some gang communication at all. But i wonder if those on here that think it is, think it enough to report it or just enough to post it here.


Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

 

[swedie]

Something to ponder...that shattered passenger window happened because there was a struggle inside the TB's truck as a "source" claimed LE told them: According to the source, police said after Bosma’s body was found that they believed he was killed in his truck following a struggle.

IMO this could be a highly probably scenario. Did TB see DM pull out the gun and he tried to grab it or knock it out of DM's hand. TB tried to get out of the truck but the auto lock feature had kicked in when the truck was put into drive upon leaving the Bosma's laneway. Or possibly DM locked the doors from the driver's side door control panel. I am not familiar with that year and model of TB's truck, but maybe someone here is and knows how those features work. I know with my vehicle, I can control the door and window locks on the driver's door control panel. Could that be what DM did, and in TB's desperation to get away, he shattered the window with his arm or shoulder? Perhaps this is where the forcible confinement charge came from. Forensics were able to tell a struggle occurred.

Is this what happened and was good indication a struggle occurred inside the truck prior to TB being shot? I'm not a ballistic expert and I don't doubt we will hear from one or two giving their expertise eventually. Some bullets will remain lodged in a victim's body. But we could speculate a bullet passing through TB and hitting the window, could either shatter the window or would it not just make a hole, passing through the window, exiting outside kwim.
ALL MOO.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2..._man_was_killed_inside_truck_source_says.html

 

[Gumshew]

If people are concerned that the word PACIFIC written on MSs shoes is some cryptic gang message, has anyone contacted prison authorities or LE to report it?

I'm pretty sure they know all this.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Pretty sure his lawyer has questioned him about it and doesn't find that it's an issue. I would think that if MS said "it's loyalty to my gang" to his lawyer, his lawyer would have given him a rag and some cleaner.

Unless he did and MS put his foot down (pun intended ) and insisted that he wanted to display the word. I don't think he would be that foolish but who knows.

MOO

No question those on the jury have noticed it as well and may be wondering "what does this mean?". No matter how you look at it, really, it doesn't bode well for MS. They're all aware he was in the truck the night Tim died. They all know what the Crown intends to prove.

And just for the sake of full disclosure, I know it's the accepted form of posting on WS to use initials instead of full names, but because my heart aches for Sharlene and her baby girl so in this case, I like to use Tim's actual name - sometimes just first, but often first and last. Tim was our neighbor, our brother, son, nephew, friend, church congregant, etc. He was a family man, trying to sell that old lemon of a truck to put his family in a better position for a better life... and DM and MS thinking only of themselves and their financial gain, never considered for a moment *any* of that.

This is the sharp contract between who Tim was, and who they are. He paid for it with his life. These pieces of trash need to likewise, pay for what they've done.

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

If people are concerned that the word PACIFIC written on MSs shoes is some cryptic gang message, has anyone contacted prison authorities or LE to report it?

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

I think you may all be missing something obvious. If you write something on your toes you probably don't expect a courtroom gallery sitting behind you while you're in the prisoner box, to see your shoes. RATHER, you expect someone who is sitting beside you to see it. Who would that be other then DM himself?

IMO this is a message (whatever that message is, to DM alone). Maybe a form of threat for all I know.

In any case, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, MS could communicate with others, through his lawyer or family visits, so would not need to write something on his shoes. However, the one person he would not be able to get a message through to is DM. Hence the shoes!

 

[swedie]

Nice catch. Have wondered how they were pursuing the LB case, since all we know (on the outside) is that she went poof, her ex suspected DM pretty early on and even confronted him, and DM bought the Eliminator within weeks of Laura's last sighting. (Which by itself all sounds ominous, but I think that stuff still counts as circumstantial. So I've always wondered what they had that was tangible, since her remains were not recovered, as far as we are aware.)

I've thought out of all those 58 bone fragments, 2 virtually complete bones or maybe the tooth, something may prove to belong to LB. We will have to wait and see. We also need to remember, there is a DI in her case also, which make me feel hopeful there will be a conviction and justice for Laura. :great: JMO.

 

[Gumshew]

I think you may all be missing something obvious. If you write something on your toes you probably don't expect a courtroom gallery sitting behind you while you're in the prisoner box, to see your shoes. RATHER, you expect someone who is sitting beside you to see it. Who would that be other then DM himself?

IMO this is a message (whatever that message is, to DM alone). Maybe a form of threat for all I know.

In any case, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, MS could communicate with others, through his lawyer or family visits, so would not need to write something on his shoes. However, the one person he would not be able to get a message through to is DM. Hence the shoes!

In my opinion, you hit the nail on the head. It may be why DM sometimes glances over at MS with almost pleading looks, and MS completely ignores him.

 

[SnooperDuper]

If MS and DM are going to blame each other (not saying they are) aren't they going to have to get on the stand and explain? If they say the other did it, they will have to explain how they know that therefore admitting they were in that truck which would make them guilty. Sorry about the wording, it always sounds better in my head lol.

A lot of their friends will be testifying...we've heard the names CN, MM, AM, SS...their friends can tell the story for DM and MS without forcing them to testify. IMO.

 

[Gumshew]

A lot of their friends will be testifying...we've heard the names CN, MM, AM, SS...their friends can tell the story for DM and MS without forcing them to testify. IMO.

If DM and MS have different versions of the event, as I'm sure they will, I wonder who will corroborate whose story. Should be intriguing.

 

[swedie]

In my opinion, you hit the nail on the head. It may be why DM sometimes glances over at MS with almost pleading looks, and MS completely ignores him.

I've seen not tweets or MSM information stating DM glances over at MS with almost pleading looks. I'd LOVE to read that. Could you please provide a link Gumshew. TIA.

 

[Kamille]

In my opinion, you hit the nail on the head. It may be why DM sometimes glances over at MS with almost pleading looks, and MS completely ignores him.

Pleading looks? More like contempt. DM is trying to tell the jury it's all MS's fault with all his body language IMO. It's pathetic. I said it before, he must not have confidence in his $500 an hour attorney and thinks he needs to show the jury with gestures, glares, head shaking etc, that he's disgusted with MS for getting him into this mess. He should be held in contempt for these antics. His lack of respect for the court and the victim's family is being documented on a daily basis and shows just what kind of person he is. Not a stretch at all to think he could this with absolutely no remorse.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

If DM and MS have different versions of the event, as I'm sure they will, I wonder who will corroborate whose story. Should be intriguing.

Well the lawyers will have lots to fight over, that's for sure. They haven't had much to do in the cross-examination of the expert witnesses to date but once it gets into testimony by those involved it should get really interesting.