Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[Ontario Mom]

I believe the Crown has indicated that they ignited the incinerator at the hangar as seen in a neighbour's video surveillance, and it burned there for several hours. We haven't heard of where they determined the seats were burned yet.

I think the testimony so far indicated that it appeared that the seats had been "set on fire". I assume we'll be hearing from some experts who may have been able to determine whether they would have been burned in the incinerator or just set on fire somewhere else to burn the upholstery.

MOO

I had the same thought after the testimony saying it looked like they'd been set on fire. I'm sure once they discovered Tim's remains in the incinerator they had a burn pattern expert take a look at those seats to determine how they were burned. Set on fire would (generally) mean an accelerant was used where the incinerator (burns) wouldn't have the same pattern.

Not to mention, I seriously doubt it would take several hours to burn car seats.

moo

 

[MsSherlock]

So it looks basically like the picture except the prisoner box sits empty?

Yes and there are more tables at the front- 3 on each side

 

[cansleuther]

IMHO, being there for his own protection could mean that for a variety of reasons, prison officials are worried that he may not survive in GP or that he may try to interfere with an ongoing investigation. The Crown is alleging that DM was communicating with CN, attempting to get her to tamper with witnesses so IMO, it's hard to say what else he's been up to- thus the segregation may be warranted. IMO, since we don't get a report card from the jail, we have no idea how well he's behaving. Also, since the murder happened in the Hamilton area, they may be genuinely concerned about his safety. IMO, the handle of "Big D" may be noticed by a few "Big Guys" in GP. Perhaps they don't have these same concerns or issues with MS aka Igor's "Little Mouse". lol MOO

Actually, Igor's "mouse" reference was in regards to DM:

He concedes, though, that to say the the tall guy was moving in his seat like a mouse “maybe is too much.”

After Sachak cuts him off, Igor asks, “Can I just say something?”

“No,” the lawyer says. “He didn’t move like a mouse and that was an exaggeration when you communicated it to the jury. Fair?”

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/dispatches-from-the-tim-bosma-trial-day-5.html


When talking about Smich, he said he was quiet like a fish:

“I told him I was familiar with this engine from Israeli army experience,” said Tumanenko.

He said there was a pause and then the short guy, who had “been quiet like a fish,” asked what he had done in the army.

“You don’t want to know what I did there,” Tumanenko replied.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/04/crown-builds-case-as-tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html


And FYI for anyone interested, "quiet like a fish" is a line from the children's movie Chicken Run:

[video=youtube;d4ODBYvmag4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4ODBYvmag4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4ODBYvmag4[/video]

 

[MsSherlock]

Actually, Igor's "mouse" reference was in regards to DM:



http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/dispatches-from-the-tim-bosma-trial-day-5.html


When talking about Smich, he said he was quiet like a fish:



http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/04/crown-builds-case-as-tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html


And FYI for anyone interested, "quiet like a fish" is a line from the children's movie Chicken Run:

[video=youtube;d4ODBYvmag4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4ODBYvmag4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4ODBYvmag4[/video]

Thanks for the correction!! OK, MS aka "Fish" lol

 

[Tamarind]

IIRC, MS has been in and out of segregation, but FWIK, he's in GP right now. I'm not sure if DM is still in segregation. Back at one of his early hearings- June 13, 2013, DP gave this statement to the press:

“He is getting into a routine, but I can indicate he is locked up for 23 and a half hours a day, and that is pretty tough for anybody,” said Paradkar, adding Millard was likely placed in isolation by prison officials for his own protection."

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/13/tim-bosma-murder-suspects-appear-in-court

For types of segregation :http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/research/b39-eng.shtml#Toc195779129

IMHO, being there for his own protection could mean that for a variety of reasons, prison officials are worried that he may not survive in GP or that he may try to interfere with an ongoing investigation. The Crown is alleging that DM was communicating with CN, attempting to get her to tamper with witnesses so IMO, it's hard to say what else he's been up to- thus the segregation may be warranted. IMO, since we don't get a report card from the jail, we have no idea how well he's behaving. Also, since the murder happened in the Hamilton area, they may be genuinely concerned about his safety. IMO, the handle of "Big D" may be noticed by a few "Big Guys" in GP. Perhaps they don't have these same concerns or issues with MS aka Igor's "Little Mouse". lol MOO

I highly doubt that DM would be able to interfere with an ongoing investigation and tamper with a witness in the GP of a prison. Calls are monitored from what I understand and also mail. He would be afforded these privileges from either the general population of a jail or segregation. So I see no actual evidence to support the view that he is in segregation to stop him interfering with an investigation. Also he can still be charged while in jail, so if he were to commit a crime in jail he would no doubt be facing charges. There may be no report card from jail, but I have a feeling that anything he were to do in jail that was negative, would be immediately written about in the press. All just my opinion.

 

[MsSherlock]

I highly doubt that DM would be able to interfere with an ongoing investigation and tamper with a witness in the GP of a prison. Calls are monitored from what I understand and also mail. He would be afforded these privileges from either the general population of a jail or segregation. So I see no actual evidence to support the view that he is in segregation to stop him interfering with an investigation. Also he can still be charged while in jail, so if he were to commit a crime in jail he would no doubt be facing charges. There may be no report card from jail, but I have a feeling that anything he were to do in jail that was negative, would be immediately written about in the press. All just my opinion.

IIRC, the Crown is saying that CN- someone who happens to be on DM's "do not contact" list, received letters from DM and instructed her to contact a witness to get their statement changed. If he can do that from segregation, I'm having a hard time believing that he wouldn't be able to do more from GP. I'm not sure if the Jail is under any obligation to report to the media about DM's conduct while in jail. Would this really be made public and how & when? I can't remember ever hearing anything about any prisoner until they're applying for bail or parole, but I may not have noticed.

Also, I don't know if the Crown is obligated to make a public announcement about the charges on anyone. AFAIK, it's public information, but you have to physically go to the Court in the Municipality where the charges are laid and ask to obtain the information under Freedom of Information. Not everything hits the news. MOO

 

[Kamille]

Yes and there are more tables at the front- 3 on each side

I haven't sat in on any trials but for the ones I've followed here at WS , I believe the accused has always been sitting in the prisoner's box. Is there a reason why this is not the case here? Perhaps because there are 2 co-accused? Not enough room for more than one person in the box? Is there a guard who stands close to their "table"? Are they brought in by guards or do they just enter through a door and saunter over to the defence table unaccompanied?

TIA

 

[Kamille]

Here's a rundown from Susan Clairmont on what was sampled from inside the trailer and truck during the 4 day examination of them...

The jury heard: the truck was pulled out of the trailer with a winch because starting the engine would change the dashboard readings. Sixty-four blood swabs were sent to the CFS for testing. Items were placed on Kraft paper to prevent contamination. Krazy Glue was vaporized to stick to fingerprints, 23 of which were found on 20 items. Two prints were matched to Millard. A square was cut from a green tarp with blood stains and sent for testing. Soil and vegetation samples were taken from the tires. Tweezers were used to collect shards of glass from the broken passenger window. Blood does not show up well on black surfaces, but the interior of the truck was grey. The "WIN 380 Auto" brass shell casing found in the back seat was sent to the CFS to be compared to other unsolved cases and examined for DNA. Presumptive tests at the scene were done on possible blood spots to determine if they were likely human. A chemical spray called leucomalachite green (LMG) was used inside the trailer to turn blood spots green. Sticky "dabbers" are used to collect gunshot residue from hands usually, but in this case, 12 sites on the truck.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...idence-in-the-bosma-case-and-the-csi-effect-/

 

[Tamarind]

IIRC, the Crown is saying that CN- someone who happens to be on DM's "do not contact" list, received letters from DM and instructed her to contact a witness to get their statement changed. If he can do that from segregation, I'm having a hard time believing that he wouldn't be able to do more from GP. I'm not sure if the Jail is under any obligation to report to the media about DM's conduct while in jail. Would this really be made public and how & when? I can't remember ever hearing anything about any prisoner until they're applying for bail or parole, but I may not have noticed.

Also, I don't know if the Crown is obligated to make a public announcement about the charges on anyone. AFAIK, it's public information, but you have to physically go to the Court in the Municipality where the charges are laid and ask to obtain the information under Freedom of Information. Not everything hits the news. MOO

You are right, not everything hits the news. But, I am very doubtful that any mail was addressed to CN from the jail JMO. I also think there are enough reporters and journalists working around the courthouses to check the names on the dockets. JMO

 

[Kamille]

She said blood was found on the front passenger side, on the dash, in the cracks of the truck's vinyl and on the ceiling above the driver's side.

McLellan said she didn't even need the orange goggles that she usually uses with a special laser to see the dark stains that field tests indicated were blood.

There also was blood on a tarp found in the bed of the pickup truck, blood on the undercarriage, and blood on the muffler.

The front passenger window was shattered. The front seats and carpets were ripped out, and the charred remains of the seats were found in the back of the trailer. They also found a box cutter on the truck's floor.

There were three green tarps in the bed of truck along with the vehicle's headlights, taillights and its identifying emblems. She said they detected blood on two parts of one of the tarps.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/blood-...ma-s-pickup-truck-murder-trial-told-1.2774468

 

[swedie]

She said blood was found on the front passenger side, on the dash, in the cracks of the truck's vinyl and on the ceiling above the driver's side.

McLellan said she didn't even need the orange goggles that she usually uses with a special laser to see the dark stains that field tests indicated were blood.

There also was blood on a tarp found in the bed of the pickup truck, blood on the undercarriage, and blood on the muffler.

The front passenger window was shattered. The front seats and carpets were ripped out, and the charred remains of the seats were found in the back of the trailer. They also found a box cutter on the truck's floor.

There were three green tarps in the bed of truck along with the vehicle's headlights, taillights and its identifying emblems. She said they detected blood on two parts of one of the tarps.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/blood-...ma-s-pickup-truck-murder-trial-told-1.2774468

BBM - Why would they remove the headlights and tail lights? Did they get broken somehow during the test drive? These things are standard on Dodge Rams depending on year and model are they not? Could this be what all those courier deliveries were about prior to May 7th? Someone ordered speciality parts for the Dodge DM would eventually acquire? MOO.

 

[Sillybilly]

You are right, not everything hits the news. But, I am very doubtful that any mail was addressed to CN from the jail JMO. I also think there are enough reporters and journalists working around the courthouses to check the names on the dockets. JMO

If you think letters were not addressed to CN by DM, why do you propose the Crown would state that while in custody DM sent letters to CN to have a key crown witness change their testimony?

Are you perhaps suggesting the letters were delivered to CN via DM's then lawyer? It's a thought I've had, and if that was the case, it would be of "great public interest". JMO

 

[MsSherlock]

You are right, not everything hits the news. But, I am very doubtful that any mail was addressed to CN from the jail JMO. I also think there are enough reporters and journalists working around the courthouses to check the names on the dockets. JMO

Then how would CN have gotten all of those letters the Crown made reference to in their opening statements if DM wasn't sending them from his cell? As far as the journalists are concerned, IMHO, all media has cut back on the number of reporters they have digging for info. IIRC, ABro has often reported on court appearances that no other reporter has attended. If she wasn't there, we would not have the info. MOO

 

[Kamille]

The tarp with the blood. Do you think that's where they put the seats once they removed them? We know they had the truck on a tarp so I'd imagine they had other tarps around it as they were removing the interior? To keep blood off the hangar floor. Maybe just drag the tarp with the seats to a door and set them on fire outside. We haven't heard that anything like that was caught on the neighbour's surveillance video so maybe if they did just set them on fire it was done in another area outside the hanger?

MOO

 

[Kamille]

BBM - Why would they remove the headlights and tail lights? Did they get broken somehow during the test drive? These things are standard on Dodge Rams depending on year and model are they not? Could this be what all those courier deliveries were about prior to May 7th? Someone ordered speciality parts for the Dodge DM would eventually acquire? MOO.

I wonder if we'll ever find out what those regular deliveries were for? And why did someone (SS?) tell this company that they were back in "business" after DM was arrested? Not sure this business is going to be brought up in the trial. I would have thought they'd have elicited some info from AJ? :waitasec:

MOO

ETA: I believe it was Arnie that suggested the lights and emblems may have been removed for painting?

 

[Tamarind]

If you think letters were not addressed to CN by DM, why do you propose the Crown would state that while in custody DM sent letters to CN to have a key crown witness change their testimony?

Are you perhaps suggesting the letters were delivered to CN via DM's then lawyer? It's a thought I've had, and if that was the case, it would be of "great public interest". JMO

There are ways to get mail delivered to people other than addressed directly IMO. A crown witness may not have known facts and based their testimony on what they thought, for all we know. Do you have a date when this is supposed to have occurred?

 

[Sillybilly]

There are ways to get mail delivered to people other than addressed directly IMO. A crown witness may not have known facts and based their testimony on what they thought, for all we know. Do you have a date when this is supposed to have occurred?

No specific dates, but after DM was in custody (May 10) and whenever LE searched CN's bedroom and found the letters:

from:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-court-day1-millard-smich-trial-1.3426062

Fraser said that when investigators searched Noudga's bedroom months after Millard was arrested, they found letters he had written to her while in custody.

PS: What "ways" are you aware of?

 

[MsSherlock]

I haven't sat in on any trials but for the ones I've followed here at WS , I believe the accused has always been sitting in the prisoner's box. Is there a reason why this is not the case here? Perhaps because there are 2 co-accused? Not enough room for more than one person in the box? Is there a guard who stands close to their "table"? Are they brought in by guards or do they just enter through a door and saunter over to the defence table unaccompanied?

TIA

I'm not sure what was done or what the arrangements were made to allow DM and MS not to be shackled and to be allowed to sit at a table rather than the prisoners box but I would assume that it has something to do with enhancing their presumed innocence in the eyes of the Jury. They are still escorted in and out with guards and there are guards sitting nearby. They're brought in individually and there's no rush to get them over to their table- their guards are with them while they're walking. MOO

 

[swedie]

The tarp with the blood. Do you think that's where they put the seats once they removed them? We know they had the truck on a tarp so I'd imagine they had other tarps around it as they were removing the interior? To keep blood off the hangar floor. Maybe just drag the tarp with the seats to a door and set them on fire outside. We haven't heard that anything like that was caught on the neighbour's surveillance video so maybe if they did just set them on fire it was done in another area outside the hanger?

MOO

But wouldn't you think a fire outside near the hangar could attract attention? The last thing the perps would want to do is attract attention kwim. Imagine someone calling 911 to report a fire :O IMO they burned the seats in the incinerator also. Does anyone recall the dimensions of the incinerator door off hand? Wonder what the dimensions of the truck seats were?
ALL MOO.

 

[MsSherlock]

There are ways to get mail delivered to people other than addressed directly IMO. A crown witness may not have known facts and based their testimony on what they thought, for all we know. Do you have a date when this is supposed to have occurred?

The letters occurred over a length of time while DM was in jail and while CN was on DM's "no contact" list. IMHO, DM was fully aware that it was a crime to have any communication with CN and perhaps it's antics like this that require him to be kept in segregation. MOO

"After Mr. Millard’s girlfriend was charged for her role, police executed a search warrant on her residence in Toronto and seized from her bedroom several letters that were written to her by Mr. Millard over a period of many months while he was in jail after his arrest. These letters varied in terms of content, but one theme of many letters was Mr. Millard wanting a key Crown witness to change his evidence. His girlfriend was asked to reach out to this person to get him to change his evidence."

"For example, in one such letter to his girlfriend, Mr. Millard wrote the following: “If he knew his words were going to get me a life sentence , he would want to change them. Show him how he can, and he will change them.”

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/tim-bosma-trial-the-crowns-opening-statement.html