Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[swedie]

DM's "Ignorance is Bliss" defence:
1) I had lots of money to buy a truck- I didn't know MS was going to kill the owner.
2) I was tired that night and gave the keys to the hangar to MS. He wanted to play with my incinerator, so I gave him the owners manual for that as well.
3) I was surprised to find out that MS had bought the truck for me- but I wanted a red one- so I called my paint guy to get it painted asap.
4) MS was upset that he had dropped a cigarette and the inside got burned up badly.
5) MS told me that he had a nose bleed in the truck and was so stoned that he was shooting at lights from inside the truck- making a big mess.
6) I was so excited that I wanted to show my mom what MS had got me- so I got my girlfriend to help me take it to mom's house.
7) My girlfriend helped me organize the my barn that night as well- it's hard to decorate around an incinerator.
8) I thought LE were looking for MS when they came to see me- I was more than cordial
9) I was shocked when they arrested me- they may as well have accused me of going to the moon!!
10) I was just writing imaginary love letters to my GF while I was in jail because I missed her and I knew I couldn't have contact with her- but there was this owl that would come flying into the jail and my letters kept disappearing.
MOO

:silly:
MOO.

 

[MsSherlock]

Seems like they really got thru a lot of evidence on Thursday. Is everyone thinking that they're going to wrap up with all the evidence in concern to the truck and then move onto the incinerator and so forth? If they're dealing with the truck in it's entirety, then after the forensic evidence are the thoughts that SS and CN will take the stand, or are they going to hold CN off until the incinerator, because she has info on both? Thoughts?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Seems like they really got thru a lot of evidence on Thursday. Is everyone thinking that they're going to wrap up with all the evidence in concern to the truck and then move onto the incinerator and so forth? If they're dealing with the truck in it's entirety, then after the forensic evidence are the thoughts that SS and CN will take the stand, or are they going to hold CN off until the incinerator, because she has info on both? Thoughts?

The current expert on the stand photographed and collected evidence. The next person up will likely be from the Centre for Forensic Sciences, to interpret it/give lab results.

If they keep going by rough chronological order of discovery of evidence, I think that they will deal with the hangar before the incinerator? I thought LE were at the hangar first, but it might be just that the press discovered the police presence at the farm later.

I think they will do all of the expert witnesses before CN et al. Exception: they might call up some people on the list of DM's phone calls to briefly testify?

We'll hear from the video guy too before CN+:

As Hamilton police’s only certified forensic video analyst (and one of only 40 in the world) [forensic video analyst Michael Plaxton] pored over 16,449 security camera videos last year on non-major crimes like shoplifting and robbery alone. The investigation into the disappearance of Ancaster’s Tim Bosma brought in over 10,000 video files just on that one case.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/why-is-security-camera-video-still-so-terrible-1.2542359

 

[Ontario Mom]

It seems like they're presenting in the form of the timeline of events. If that's the case, once they wrap up with the truck, the hangar surveillance and incinerator would be next. But that was actually found at the farm the day BEFORE the truck was found at MB's house. So, I'm not really sure. I will say, my heart will hurt even more for the Bosma family if they actually show that surveillance footage in court - of the incinerator being lit. But I guess as evidence, the jury has to see it, right?

What stands out to me is, they have video of Tim's truck towing it onto the hangar property, and video of them (which one? DM?) lighting it, but no video of them actually putting Tim in it. Did they actually put him in it at the farm in Ayr and tow it that way? It's all so sick, I hate even asking those questions.

 

[Ontario Mom]

The current expert on the stand photographed and collected evidence. The next person up will likely be from the Centre for Forensic Sciences, to interpret it/give lab results.

If they keep going by rough chronological order of discovery of evidence, I think that they will deal with the hangar before the incinerator? I thought LE were at the hangar first, but it might be just that the press discovered the police presence at the farm later.

I think they will do all of the expert witnesses before CN et al. Exception: they might call up some people on the list of DM's phone calls to briefly testify?

We'll hear from the video guy too before CN+:


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/why-is-security-camera-video-still-so-terrible-1.2542359

10,000 video files, just on that one case. hwow: That's a heck of a lot of video evidence.

 

[Miranda]

It's kind of hard to know if CN will be able to stay "on script" or if she'll cave under pressure, especially when this is the first time she's been in DM's presence since the "no contact" order. She may be tough enough to move an incinerator and help DM do whatever DM needed done, but is she really tough enough to sit there with DM staring her down, smack dab in the middle of a Judge and Jury, answering questions from the Crown and MS's legal team- all in front of a court room jammed with reporters, the widow and family of TB, LE and spectators? How strong will she be knowing that from that day on, all of her actions will be public knowledge and on every single news report? Anything she say's at this trial cannot be held against her in her own trial, so DM may be surprised with what comes out of her mouth. MOO

3 years is a long time when you're 23.

 

[MsSherlock]

It seems like they're presenting in the form of the timeline of events. If that's the case, once they wrap up with the truck, the hangar surveillance and incinerator would be next. But that was actually found at the farm the day BEFORE the truck was found at MB's house. So, I'm not really sure. I will say, my heart will hurt even more for the Bosma family if they actually show that surveillance footage in court - of the incinerator being lit. But I guess as evidence, the jury has to see it, right?

What stands out to me is, they have video of Tim's truck towing it onto the hangar property, and video of them (which one? DM?) lighting it, but no video of them actually putting Tim in it. Did they actually put him in it at the farm in Ayr and tow it that way? It's all so sick, I hate even asking those questions.

I hate reading those questions. It's just that this isn't a simple case where a couple guys steal a truck and kill the owner and toss him in a ditch or something. IMHO, DM & MS's actions before, during and after were really an elaborate attempt to get away with the thrill of stealing a truck and murdering someone at the same time. So, so much evidence on the truck alone and that's only up until now! IMO, the AG did us all a favour by sending this straight to trial. Not quite sure what happened to DP? FWIW, he's also no longer on the MP murder case. Did he jump ship? Does he feel professionally embarrassed since he led everyone to believe that DM was such a well educated, outstanding citizen? I feel a bit indignant over the urge of society itself to offer any form of defence to DM because of some perceived stature. Just has me shaking my head asking- how was this even possible"? What kind of animals can watch the blood drain from someones body? How oh how can human beings keep such secrets that all of this evidence is exposing, when a family's heart is breaking and holding out hope? I would be more excepting if it was just one crazy psychopath- but a whole group of young adults? MOO

 

[Stratocaster]

I would imagine we will hear from a forensic expert on indepth blood spatter patterns and bullet trajectory from the truck because IMO this evidence will be key for both defenses (point the finger blame game). Curiously awaiting the testimony of CN and SS and wonder if both will be called to testify at the separate murder trials of LB and WM. Remember there is only about 10 months separating the three cases. I have a feeling the skelatons will be running out of the closets, so to speak, all MOO

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

Is there a legend anywhere where I can find out who some of the initials mentioned in this this forum might be? In particular MM, AM and SS.

Thanks

 

[redheart]

Is there a legend anywhere where I can find out who some of the initials mentioned in this this forum might be? In particular MM, AM and SS.

Thanks

I think it's OK to post those names - they've all been mentioned in the trial now. MM = Marlena Meneses (Smich's girlfriend), AM = Andrew Michalski (Millard's roommate and fellow Baja racer), SS = Shane Schlatman (AJ's SIL and Millard's mechanic/Millardair employee)

 

[Kamille]

If their defences had nothing in common than there would be two separate trials. Thus, their defences will have to have something in common, maybe both will admit to trying to steal the truck.

I've been reading this forum for a while, but I've never written. I've been curious about some of the stuff you guys have said.

1. If MS was in the back of the car, it makes no sense for DM to have shot him from the side because it's a lot easier to shoot someone who wasn't expecting it. Even if, hypothetically speaking, he did shoot him his body would not have remained upright and would have fallen either sideways or forward and either would probably have had to move it to the back of the car. He'd still be pretty heavy so it would take both of them. This in my opinion would explain why there would be so much blood in the back of the car.
2. Why would people not testify against them? I think they would because many people have some king of moral compass and even if they liked the accused they'd be inclined to speak against them because they've read about what happened or have sympathy for the victim. Plus, what can be done to them if these guys are in prison? I think CN has great reason to speak out against her ex-boyfriend, mostly because she wants to move on with her life and she can't if they're acquitted and it'd look good on her during her own trial or if she gets convicted at sentencing (co-operating with the Crown is always a good idea). Plus, I'm pretty sure since it's been two years since this happened she's over him romantically and angry at what he got her into (even if she did participate in some of it willingly).
3. On the subject of segregation to protect them. This is a big profile case, these guys are charged with multiple murders you want them as healthy as possible to stand trial if anything happened to them the public would be outraged.

Welcome orderly

1. There is nothing sensible about this murder. But I would think that whomever had the gun would be the one who shot TB. Doesn't matter which position they were seated in. I thought most of the blood evidence so far has been from the front seat. They even left the back rest part of the back seat in the vehicle I believe, which should have been blood covered as well if they moved him to the back. I also thought there was blood found on the dash of the front seat...which would be in line with your theory that TB may have slumped forward and was resting against the dash. This may also be why he would not have been seen by anyone passing the vehicle and looking in.

2. People who are testifying gave their statements three years ago likely when LE came to them. Their perception of things may have been different then. Have they brought forward more information since then? If they have changed their statements, the defense will be all over it. So most likely, we will only be hearing what they had to say then.

3. Only DM was ever placed in "segregation" and made his first court appearance unshackled. Here is what his lawyer at the time had to say about his solitary situation.

Millard is being held in the Barton Street East Jail in Hamilton, where he is under heavy guard but not in protective custody.
“I’m not saying [he’s in] isolation but similar to isolation,” Paradkar said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...formally_charged_with_firstdegree_murder.html

MS has been in and out of segregation and two different jails I believe. It sounds like he sometimes has a hard time in GP, probably for the reason you stated, this is a high profile case. Why is he not under heavy guard being protected? My personal opinion is that he doesn't want to be and DM does. DM's lawyer has never presented a motion to have him removed from "solitary" as far as I know. He'd have a hard time doing yoga and reading the books by his bedside if he had a cellmate in GP.

His days in solitary are spent reading and practising yoga.
“I spend time outside the cell in my head,” he says. “I re-enact movies in my head. It was Jurassic Park last night.”
And he devises business ideas.
At the moment, he’s onto an idea about which he’s gained some valuable real-life experience in jail: living in small quarters.
“I’ve been thinking about a project on submarine living spaces. I spend my time thinking, reading, doing things that are useful.”
On his bedside at the moment is the 19th-century book On War by Carl von Clausewitz.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...didnt_kill_tim_bosma_exclusive_interview.html

MOO

 

[Kamille]

It seems like they're presenting in the form of the timeline of events. If that's the case, once they wrap up with the truck, the hangar surveillance and incinerator would be next. But that was actually found at the farm the day BEFORE the truck was found at MB's house. So, I'm not really sure. I will say, my heart will hurt even more for the Bosma family if they actually show that surveillance footage in court - of the incinerator being lit. But I guess as evidence, the jury has to see it, right?

What stands out to me is, they have video of Tim's truck towing it onto the hangar property, and video of them (which one? DM?) lighting it, but no video of them actually putting Tim in it. Did they actually put him in it at the farm in Ayr and tow it that way? It's all so sick, I hate even asking those questions.

I think they likely put him in the incinerator at the farm and towed it to the hangar with his body inside. So I don't think the video at the hangar is going to be as upsetting as it could be. And when asking whether the jury has to see it, the jury in the Luka Magnotta case had to see his actual murder and dismemberment so, if it has evidentiary value, yes the jury will have to see it.

MOO

 

[redheart]

Actually, Igor's "mouse" reference was in regards to DM:



http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/dispatches-from-the-tim-bosma-trial-day-5.html


When talking about Smich, he said he was quiet like a fish:



http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/04/crown-builds-case-as-tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html


And FYI for anyone interested, "quiet like a fish" is a line from the children's movie Chicken Run:

RSBM

cansleuther, you pretty much have the most amazing recall/attention to detail/search skills I've seen.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

DM and MS seem to be enemies since the week when they allegedly murdered TB. I wonder why?
I also wonder, why did DM need the help of his little girlfriend CN for hiding the trailer and returning the incinerator to the farmland? Why not his "friend" and "accomplice" MS??

 

[Juballee]

This is what I want to know. Are MS and DM just really, really, really stupid? Even if they did not intend on killing TB, only stealing his truck at gun point and somehow a struggle ensued and he got killed. Even then you are showing your faces to TB, his wife, some other guy who lives there etc. Wouldn't you be worried that police will find you since you're showing your faces to witnesses like it's nothing? And if they did intend on killing TB and taking his truck, then they're 1000 times as dumb for the same reasons. Then you throw his phone away undamaged? You let your employees see the truck just sitting there like it's nothing even though it's all over the news? Then MS tells his GF they stole a truck and the guy is gone? Why would you tell ANYONE?? Are you just begging to go to prison? The Lucas Bate phone thing is the only thing suggesting he actually tried to cover his tracks at all. But even then don't you understand they can track your calls from that phone to the other sellers of the truck and contact them for description ? Is this guy slow or something ? Plus why would this guy who is a millionaire resort to stealing cars anyway? And lastly why did the GF of DM have the DVR of them in the hangar ? Why did DM give it to her for safe keeping ? Wouldn't he destroy it right away???

Hi Night_is_Mine, and welcome.

I have had some similar questions. I feel that if the murder was planned ahead of time by DM, he would have been at least prepared enough to have had the incinerator waiting at the hanger beforehand, and he could have prepared his employees not to come in ahead of time so as not to raise suspicions.

I find the Lucas Bate phone as being the only sign so far that there may have been any premeditation, the fact that it was used and turned off, and I find the timing of MS Turing off his phone too coincidental. I was shocked to hear that DM's personal cell wasn't also turned off at the same time. Why wouldn't he turn off his phone when the others were turned off, unless perhaps he was in a separate vehicle at that time? If he was present when the other phones were turned off, why would he leave his on? Somebody knew enough to turn their phone off, why didn't they tell DM to? I'm also curious why there has been no testimony that their phones were also turned off the day before on the previous test drive with Igor.

I wonder why he wouldn't have hid his appearance at all either. MS had the right idea by hiding his face and hands if he was planning a crime, in my opinion. How hard would it have been to put on a ball cap?

I forget the exact words, but in the crown's opening statement he said that DM gave the gun in a locked box to a friend, (obviously not MS). The wording that they used to describe it made it seem that MS had to go through some effort to get that box into his possession. Why not just give the box to MS so that he could get rid of the weapon, why was an effort made to hold on to it, was it an effort to preserve evidence that may have shown whose fingerprints were on the gun? I wonder what the PVR shows and why that wasn't destroyed either.

I welcome your thoughts and insights into this, it's refreshing to hear new voices.

 

[Juballee]

DM and MS seem to be enemies since the week when they allegedly murdered TB. I wonder why?
I also wonder, why did DM need the help of his little girlfriend CN for hiding the trailer and returning the incinerator to the farmland? Why not his "friend" and "accomplice" MS??

That at is a good point, I would think that if they planned a murder like that together, they should have been happy with the results, mission accomplished. Unless that wasn't the plan?

 

[redheart]

Well, I am not a "new voice" but do have thoughts on this.

<modsnip> I really believe that DM not hiding his face completely fits in with many other signs that DM has some sort of personality disorder. Coupled with his behaviour in court, and of course many of the other things we've all discussed in the last 3 years, he truly seems to have no conscience.

I think the incinerator was at the farm because it would have been noticed by airport staff/security if DM had it at the hangar. I waver between thinking Tim's murder was planned in advance (not to be confused with premeditated, which can happen in seconds) and thinking it was not planned at all.

I do not understand why the DVR was not destroyed.

 

[Kamille]

DM and MS seem to be enemies since the week when they allegedly murdered TB. I wonder why?
I also wonder, why did DM need the help of his little girlfriend CN for hiding the trailer and returning the incinerator to the farmland? Why not his "friend" and "accomplice" MS??

They were together that week as evidenced by the phone records. MS was with DM to get the truck in the trailer and prepare it for "hiding". But MS does not have a vehicle and his sister had a wedding coming up which he may have had comittments for. And DM only had to drop off the trailer and hand someone the gun at that point. So he chose to take his girlfriend for the ride. Now if she really had no clue up until this point, that was a pretty underhanded and nasty thing for him to do. You'd think if he was so "innocent" in all of this he would have wanted to protect her.

MOO

ETA: It appears the animosity between them occurred after they were arrested and started pointing fingers at each other. So I guess they didn't think they were going to get caught prior to DM's arrest.

 

[cansleuther]

cansleuther, you pretty much have the most amazing recall/attention to detail/search skills I've seen.

:tyou:

 

[ArianeEmory]

Well, I am not a "new voice" but do have thoughts on this.

I really believe that DM not hiding his face completely fits in with many other signs that DM has some sort of personality disorder. Coupled with his behaviour in court, and of course many of the other things we've all discussed in the last 3 years, he truly seems to have no conscience.

I think the incinerator was at the farm because it would have been noticed by airport staff/security if DM had it at the hangar. I waver between thinking Tim's murder was planned in advance (not to be confused with premeditated, which can happen in seconds) and thinking it was not planned at all.

I do not understand why the DVR was not destroyed.

I've seen a couple of people mention the DVR today, so just going to briefly restate my theory (from a technical background).

A security DVR is typically a beefy rack-mount component, like a heavy VCR. If DM didn't start doing damage control until the last minute, which it sounds like he didn't ,then it may have been too late for throwing it in the incinerator or something like that. He probably ripped out the cables, and handed it to CN intending to have her destroy it later (although I'm not sure how she could have destroyed it. See: large beefy piece of equipment). Unless he wanted to keep it for blackmail, but seems unlikely.

Meanwhile, a typical security DVR writes to harddrives, which take some doing to physically destroy or overwrite. If one had time *and the login credentials for the DVR system*, you could probably wipe the footage. But I don't think DM thought of this until it was far too late, and may have not had the login info on hand (unless he was a creeper who regularly liked watching his own security cameras/employees). (Whenever I've had to review footage from my office's security DVR it's always made me feel creepy, watching my coworkers on tape.).