Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[ArianeEmory]

BBM

I think a subpoena and a whack of evidence suggesting that she was with DM that night is probably pretty good incentive.

MOO

Question from the legally ignorant crowd: why does that evidence make CN any more incentivized to tell the truth than DM/MS, who we know will almost certainly *not* be telling the truth in spite of their respective mountain of evidence? I guess some of us continue to be confused about "deals", but in my case I'm sure that's from watching too much TV.

(And a follow up question: those two won't literally be taking the stand, will they?)

 

[ADAWG]

I don't think their is a deal in place, but she was likely told by her lawyer to cooperate at this point in hopes when she is sentenced at the end of her trial the judge goes easier on her.


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[billandrew]

I don't think their is a deal in place, but she was likely told by her lawyer to cooperate at this point in hopes when she is sentenced at the end of her trial the judge goes easier on her.


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This is what I think, too. And if it's true, doesn't it imply that CN and her lawyer, upon reviewing all the info, don't believe there's any chance DM and MS will be found not guilty? Otherwise, she could just stay silent, and when DM and MS are found not guilty then she would basically be off the hook as well.

By testifying for the Crown, I feel that CN and her counsel know that DM and MS will be found guilty, so her best move is to cooperate and hope for a reduced sentence.




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[ABro]

CN has no choices here. She has been subpoenaed to testify. It's extremely rare to get a subpoena quashed.

As a compelled witness, nothing she says can be used against her in her own proceedings -- unless she perjures herself. So perjuring yourself is not a good idea for any compelled witnesses since it could lead to you losing your right not to self incriminate.

As for deals in general, both parties have to have some sort of incentive to make them. This is even true on Law and Order, where the DA does not make deals unless s/he feels s/he has to.

It mystifies me why so many people think there are always deals happening. Afterall, there would be no trials if everyone made a deal.

 

[ADAWG]

I agree not sure why people think there would be a plea deal. There is mountains of evidence against these two that to give her a plea deal based on what she has to say would be pointless. She isn't the missing piece needed to get a guilty conviction. These guys have done a fine job of not covering up their work to incriminate themselves.


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[ArianeEmory]

For what it's worth, my question was less "are there deals we don't know about" and more "why does CN have any incentive to tell the truth".

 

[Ontario Mom]

So tomorrow will be the continuation of the blood and gunshot residue evidence from the truck and trailer? I expect the incinerator evidence will show up at some point this week as well.

I thanked that comment but I don't really mean it. But I know everyone knows what I mean. Ugh. What a wretched case this is I have a feeling there'll be a fresh new batch of tears when they bring out that incinerator evidence.

 

[ADAWG]

I think the incentive to tell the truth is lying under oath is illegal. She can't incriminate herself as a witness so she's nothing to gain and a lot to lose by lying


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[Ontario Mom]

CN has no choices here. She has been subpoenaed to testify. It's extremely rare to get a subpoena quashed.

As a compelled witness, nothing she says can be used against her in her own proceedings -- unless she perjures herself. So perjuring yourself is not a good idea for any compelled witnesses since it could lead to you losing your right not to self incriminate.

As for deals in general, both parties have to have some sort of incentive to make them. This is even true on Law and Order, where the DA does not make deals unless s/he feels s/he has to.

It mystifies me why so many people think there are always deals happening. Afterall, there would be no trials if everyone made a deal.

I assume it's likely because most regular folks have no working knowledge of the system, no experience with it (on either side of the law), and gain most of what we think we know from tv crime shows, movies, books, etc.

But that's just a guess.

 

[Kamille]

For what it's worth, my question was less "are there deals we don't know about" and more "why does CN have any incentive to tell the truth".

Well LE have her phone records placing her in Kleinburg when the truck and trailer were caught on video. They also may have witness testimony from the friend they took the lockbox to as well as other possible video surveillance showing she was with DM that night. My personal opinion is that she will tell the truth about being in these places with DM, placing him at these key spots where evidence was hidden and located, but she will not tell the truth about what she may have known about the murder at that point in time.

MOO

 

[MsSherlock]

I think the incentive to tell the truth is lying under oath is illegal. She can't incriminate herself as a witness so she's nothing to gain and a lot to lose by lying


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I'm expecting CN also has some serious problems to over come on both the home and social fronts. IMHO, it's not quite that easy being the gf of a cold blooded murderer, so her testimony may very well be a chance at some form of redemption. Her ankle bracelet is a constant reminder of her loyalty to the twisted DM.

Of all the witnesses that will be taking the stand, I believe that CN is going to have the hardest time. Having to face the glare of DM and tell the truth to a Judge and Jury in front of the B family may be enough to reduce her to a pile of remorseful soaked kleenex. IMO, CN knows DM is going away for a very long time and IMO, she's fully aware that she's got to cut her losses by telling the truth, seeking mercy from the Judge in her own trial and trying to salvage her own life. MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

I suppose what I'm getting at is why we expect CN to be truthful, but not MS or DM, or some of the other, potentially more sketchy witnesses. Is it a gender thing, or do we perceive she has more to lose?

These are sincere questions, not "leading" ones. I don't have an opinion, personally, just noticing a bias towards expecting CN will "do the right thing".

And I think I didn't get an answer before--will DM or MS testify? I'm not sure if that's an absurd question. I follow true crime but usually not trials.

 

[Kamille]

I suppose what I'm getting at is why we expect CN to be truthful, but not MS or DM, or some of the other, potentially more sketchy witnesses. Is it a gender thing, or do we perceive she has more to lose?

These are sincere questions, not "leading" ones. I don't have an opinion, personally, just noticing a bias towards expecting CN will "do the right thing".

And I think I didn't get an answer before--will DM or MS testify? I'm not sure if that's an absurd question. I follow true crime but usually not trials.

I don't think she will be any more truthful than she has to be based on the evidence they have against her. She will admit to being with DM but that's about it IMO. I don't expect the whole truth out of any of the "circle" of friends.

And neither DM or MS are required or can be subpoenaed to testify at their own trial.

MOO

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

It mystifies me why so many people think there are always deals happening. Afterall, there would be no trials if everyone made a deal.

Uhhh, perhaps because of one deal that gave the whole justice system a black eye, namely with someone named Karla!

 

[billandrew]

CN has no choices here. She has been subpoenaed to testify. It's extremely rare to get a subpoena quashed.

As a compelled witness, nothing she says can be used against her in her own proceedings -- unless she perjures herself. So perjuring yourself is not a good idea for any compelled witnesses since it could lead to you losing your right not to self incriminate.

As for deals in general, both parties have to have some sort of incentive to make them. This is even true on Law and Order, where the DA does not make deals unless s/he feels s/he has to.

It mystifies me why so many people think there are always deals happening. Afterall, there would be no trials if everyone made a deal.

Thanks for the reply, ABro! I did not understand the subpoena aspect before. It makes more sense knowing that CN doesn't have a choice about testifying.

Somewhat related: I was reading about one of Ravin Pillay's past clients (via CanLII). It was a guy who was charged with murder, and two of his siblings had provided key statements to LE that supported the charges. However, by the time of the trial, the siblings had changed their positions and refused to testify against their brother. For Noudga, there is no doubt she'll be acting in her own interest whether it helps DM/MS or not. I just hope that means telling the truth!


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[NashBridges2]

Something that I don't get, why on earth would these guys haul the incinerator to the airport to burn him, where they knew there would be videos and cameras? It's a bloody airport for crying out loud. Since 9/11 security has been amped up, crazy to think they wouldn't get caught. I'm glad they did it there, so we have video proof but I will never understand why they didn't just burn him AT the farm.

 

[MsSherlock]

Something that I don't get, why on earth would these guys haul the incinerator to the airport to burn him, where they knew there would be videos and cameras? It's a bloody airport for crying out loud. Since 9/11 security has been amped up, crazy to think they wouldn't get caught. I'm glad they did it there, so we have video proof but I will never understand why they didn't just burn him AT the farm.

Maybe the brave duo were afraid of coyotes or being together alone with each other in the dark? MOO

 

[NashBridges2]

DM seems driven by money, timelines and roadblocks to his wants and needs. I can see how that related to TB and his father but not sure yet about Laura.

I won't say who "we" are but we believe Laura was killed because DM was just done with her. She had served her purpose, traded sex for drugs, it was all a game to him. Then, when he wanted to be done with her, she was too far gone to clean herself up and she be became a burden. We think he figured nobody would miss drug addicted Laura.

 

[Kamille]

Something that I don't get, why on earth would these guys haul the incinerator to the airport to burn him, where they knew there would be videos and cameras? It's a bloody airport for crying out loud. Since 9/11 security has been amped up, crazy to think they wouldn't get caught. I'm glad they did it there, so we have video proof but I will never understand why they didn't just burn him AT the farm.

Actually I believe the hangar was in an isolated area of a small airport, pretty far away from the main buildings. I'm not even sure if the airport was operating at that time of night in 2013? And I don't think they knew that one of the neighbouring businesses, which would have been closed, had video surveillance. They actually had more of a chance of being noticed by neighbours at the farm.

They needed to get the stolen truck back to the hangar as well so they could hide it and start stripping it down to prepare it for its "makeover". Not to mention the comforts of the hangar compared to the farm for hours while the incinerator burned.

MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but I wonder about the events of May 6th had they played out a little differently with DM and MS negotiating with TB on the driveway. For instance if TB and SB thought there was something odd about the whole situation and just asked for a piece of ID and both remained at the house while the two accused took the truck for a drive. MOO the truck would have come back and they would have carried on searching online adds with their murderous plot judging by the evidence presented, as dark and twisted as it gets. RIP Mr Bosma

I agree that the truck would have come back in those circumstances. It's no mystery to me why DM didn't hide his face or act suspiciously. He wanted the truck, and to get the truck in those circumstances - late at night, showing up in the middle of nowhere on foot with another guy trying to disappear into a hoodie - he is going to have to be disarming and relaxed and utterly normal. It also suggests that murder wasn't plan A, just a place the were ultimately willing to go.