Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[Kamille]

I've seen a couple of people mention the DVR today, so just going to briefly restate my theory (from a technical background).

A security DVR is typically a beefy rack-mount component, like a heavy VCR. If DM didn't start doing damage control until the last minute, which it sounds like he didn't ,then it may have been too late for throwing it in the incinerator or something like that. He probably ripped out the cables, and handed it to CN intending to have her destroy it later (although I'm not sure how she could have destroyed it. See: large beefy piece of equipment). Unless he wanted to keep it for blackmail, but seems unlikely.

Meanwhile, a typical security DVR writes to harddrives, which take some doing to physically destroy or overwrite. If one had time *and the login credentials for the DVR system*, you could probably wipe the footage. But I don't think DM thought of this until it was far too late, and may have not had the login info on hand (unless he was a creeper who regularly liked watching his own security cameras/employees). (Whenever I've had to review footage from my office's security DVR it's always made me feel creepy, watching my coworkers on tape.).

Yes I think he intended to wipe the footage and reinstall the DVR back at the hangar. He just had to make sure it was out of there until it was wiped in case LE came a knocking with a warrant. He's frugal you know. I truly think he figured if LE showed up due to AJ telling them about the truck, he'd have nothing there for them to see. He probably didn't think they'd arrest him so quickly after they showed up though. He probably thought he still had a couple of days to move stuff around. He didn't know that they were already closing in on him and had enough info for an arrest when they came to see him on the 10th.

MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

Random thought that occurred when summarizing things to someone else: Laura probably died in early July 2012. Wayne died about four, four and a half months later. Then Tim another six months after that. How long would DM have lasted until he needed another fix?

 

[hopingforjustice]

Another random thought keeps coming back to me over and over again is the:

What ifs:

What if SB had not alerted LE so fast
What if LE had not taken it seriously so fast
What if DM had not taken the test drive that identified his tattoo
What if that test drive owner had not seen the tattoo
What if AJ had not gone to the police
etc etc etc
And I suspect this What if list will grow as the trial moves forward


While it is just so sad and so unnecessary what happened to Tim, the stars sure seemed to have been inline to take care of the aftermath in his honour.

RIP Tim

 

[ArianeEmory]

Another random thought keeps coming back to me over and over again is the:

What ifs:

What if SB had not alerted LE so fast
What if LE had not taken it seriously so fast
What if DM had not taken the test drive that identified his tattoo
What if that test drive owner had not seen the tattoo
What if AJ had not gone to the police
etc etc etc
And I suspect this What if list will grow as the trial moves forward


While it is just so sad and so unnecessary what happened to Tim, the stars sure seemed to have been inline to take care of the aftermath in his honour.

RIP Tim

True. While we can easily point and laugh at all the things DM and MS did wrong in their bungled crime, a lot of things also lined up against them, ESPECIALLY the community and LE response to Tim's disappearance. And I think they just failed to realize the kind of suburban terror they would strike by abducting a normal everyday guy during a simple vehicle buy. So many of us have used Craigslist/kijiji. It really hit the "this could happen to anyone" button hard and the community reacted accordingly.

Anyway, I don't really believe in things like karma, but yes, it is satisfying to see how many things simply went *wrong* for them, through their own fault or otherwise.

 

[Kamille]

True. While we can easily point and laugh at all the things DM and MS did wrong in their bungled crime, a lot of things also lined up against them, ESPECIALLY the community and LE response to Tim's disappearance. And I think they just failed to realize the kind of suburban terror they would strike by abducting a normal everyday guy during a simple vehicle buy. So many of us have used Craigslist/kijiji. It really hit the "this could happen to anyone" button hard and the community reacted accordingly.

Anyway, I don't really believe in things like karma, but yes, it is satisfying to see how many things simply went *wrong* for them, through their own fault or otherwise.

Since it has been alleged that this is not their first murder together, it's likely that they were just as stupid with the evidence the first time around. Difference of course being no one was looking into that missing person. Because if they still found enough evidence in that murder to get a direct indictment years later, then at least one of them has the confidence or arrogance to believe that he can literally "get away with murder".

MOO

 

[swedie]

Yes I think he intended to wipe the footage and reinstall the DVR back at the hangar. He just had to make sure it was out of there until it was wiped in case LE came a knocking with a warrant. He's frugal you know. I truly think he figured if LE showed up due to AJ telling them about the truck, he'd have nothing there for them to see. He probably didn't think they'd arrest him so quickly after they showed up though. He probably thought he still had a couple of days to move stuff around. He didn't know that they were already closing in on him and had enough info for an arrest when they came to see him on the 10th.

MOO

Got to love how DM scatters the incriminating evidence amongst his "friends." Dumps the tool box with the gun inside it off at a friend's place, then gets MS to pick up the toolbox from the friend and get rid of the gun, ships the DVR off with his girlfriend, parks his trailer with TB's truck inside, in his own mother's driveway. Then DM puts the hard evidence, TB's truck right under SS, AJ, CN, MS, MM's noses, and whoever the other friends may have been, who came to the hangar. Nice friends for pitching in to help their genuine, generous, buddy DM. Oh yeah, and MWJ the good "friend" that he was, helped him out by selling him the murder weapon(s). I wonder if money exchanged hands for all these friends who helped DM out? Or is this just what good friends do for friends in times of desperation?

All this makes the big picture much more clear. MS was called upon to aid DM also in his nefarious deed of murdering TB. It wasn't MS who dropped the tool box off, or took the DVR from the hangar and gave it to CN, or parked TB's pickup in the hangar, there's been no indication MS was along for the ride to MB's house that Thursday night. The charges against MWJ is for selling the gun to DM not MS. Hmmm the picture is looking much clearer now. DM needed help and his friends were there to lend a helping hand.
ALL MOO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm no expert (nor do I pretend to be one here) but from all I've read for the last 40 years, those who continue to kill after their first (and second or more) and continue to get away with it, tend to get incredibly sloppy. They buy into a form of false sense of security that because they haven't been discovered previously, they can keep doing it.

This (may) certainly explain this whole business of leaving things out in the open, and trusting in an elite group of contacts to handle this task or that. I still don't really know how MS fits in but I believe DM is one seriously twisted young man and killed his father, his ex Laura and Tim Bosma, thinking he'd get away with all of it. I don't know if this means he has a mental illness, personality disorder or both, or something else. I genuinely don't even care. Both him and MS are a menace and a threat to society and need to be locked in a cage for the remainder of their natural lives.

 

[swedie]

Random thought that occurred when summarizing things to someone else: Laura probably died in early July 2012. Wayne died about four, four and a half months later. Then Tim another six months after that. How long would DM have lasted until he needed another fix?

It certainly looks like a pattern. A pattern of approximately five months between.

LB - LE believe she was murdered around July 3rd, 2012
WM - LE believe he was murdered end of November, 2012
TB - was murdered May 6th, 2013
ALL MOO.

Police were called to the house that November night before 7 p.m. from within the neighbourhood block, according to an ambulance report obtained by the Star.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html

Police allege she was killed on or around July 3 or 4, 2012 and had been romantically linked to Millard.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/1...charged-with-murder-in-death-of-laura-babcock

DM seems to fit some, if not all of the motives listed below in bold. MOO.

A serial killer is a person who murders three or more people,[1][2] usually due to abnormal psychological gratification, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant break (a "cooling off period") between them.[3][4] Some sources, such as the FBI, disregard the "three or more" criterion and define serial killing as "a series of two or more murders, committed as separate events, usually, but not always, by one offender acting alone".[4][5]

Although psychological gratification is the usual motive for serial killing, and most serial killings involve sexual contact with the victim,[6] the FBI states that the motives of serial killers can include anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

Three cases — a missing woman, an apparent suicide and a murder that captivated an international audience for months — have now been linked to one Toronto man in what could be the biggest multiple murder case since disgraced military killer Col. Russell Williams.

Dellen Millard, 28, the heir to an aviation dynasty who has been charged with killing Tim Bosma, an Ancaster man who was trying to sell his truck online, is now charged with the first-degree murder of both his former girlfriend, Laura Babcock, and his own father, Wayne Millard.

By some definitions, the cases, drawn together, could make Millard the country’s newest alleged serial killer.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html

 

[swedie]

:grouphug::cupcake:Happy Family Day!:cupcake::grouphug:

 

[MsSherlock]

It certainly looks like a pattern. A pattern of approximately five months between.

LB - LE believe she was murdered around July 3rd, 2012
WM - LE believe he was murdered end of November, 2012
TB - was murdered May 6th, 2013
ALL MOO.

Police were called to the house that November night before 7 p.m. from within the neighbourhood block, according to an ambulance report obtained by the Star.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html

Police allege she was killed on or around July 3 or 4, 2012 and had been romantically linked to Millard.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/1...charged-with-murder-in-death-of-laura-babcock

DM seems to fit some, if not all of the motives listed below in bold. MOO.

A serial killer is a person who murders three or more people,[1][2] usually due to abnormal psychological gratification, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant break (a "cooling off period") between them.[3][4] Some sources, such as the FBI, disregard the "three or more" criterion and define serial killing as "a series of two or more murders, committed as separate events, usually, but not always, by one offender acting alone".[4][5]

Although psychological gratification is the usual motive for serial killing, and most serial killings involve sexual contact with the victim,[6] the FBI states that the motives of serial killers can include anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

Three cases — a missing woman, an apparent suicide and a murder that captivated an international audience for months — have now been linked to one Toronto man in what could be the biggest multiple murder case since disgraced military killer Col. Russell Williams.

Dellen Millard, 28, the heir to an aviation dynasty who has been charged with killing Tim Bosma, an Ancaster man who was trying to sell his truck online, is now charged with the first-degree murder of both his former girlfriend, Laura Babcock, and his own father, Wayne Millard.

By some definitions, the cases, drawn together, could make Millard the country’s newest alleged serial killer.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html

And I often wonder if LB was the first.

 

[matou]

I know. Three kills in less than a year. Maybe there are more? I wonder about the man who fell to his death at the first hangar. What about any missing or murdered people while he went on vehicle hunting missions in the US or in Mexico? While he went on his many vacations?

 

[musicaljoke]

It certainly looks like a pattern. A pattern of approximately five months between.

LB - LE believe she was murdered around July 3rd, 2012
WM - LE believe he was murdered end of November, 2012
TB - was murdered May 6th, 2013
ALL MOO.

Police were called to the house that November night before 7 p.m. from within the neighbourhood block, according to an ambulance report obtained by the Star.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html

Police allege she was killed on or around July 3 or 4, 2012 and had been romantically linked to Millard.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/1...charged-with-murder-in-death-of-laura-babcock

DM seems to fit some, if not all of the motives listed below in bold. MOO...

By some definitions, the cases, drawn together, could make Millard the country’s newest alleged serial killer.[/I]

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html

I hate it when the press glorifies such monstrous people by inducting them into this Hall of Fame. I imagine that DM is smiling and waving about like royalty with this new class of notoriety.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I know. Three kills in less than a year. Maybe there are more? I wonder about the man who fell to his death at the first hangar. What about any missing or murdered people while he went on vehicle hunting missions in the US or in Mexico? While he went on his many vacations?

IF DM is the murderer, then maybe he had a specific reason to kill: Laura= just annoying and a threat to his relationship perhaps; Wayne= annoying and demanding re the company Millardair and future plans perhaps; Tim= just a Dodge Ram 3500 pickup.
If DM had no specific reason to kill while on his travelling, then maybe he returned without blood on his hands? :dunno: Not sure at all.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I hate it when the press glorifies such monstrous people by inducting them into this Hall of Fame. I imagine that DM is smiling and waving about like royalty with this new class of notoriety.

It takes a special class of monster to revel in infamy & notoriety when what you're known for is how vile you are. By all accounts from those present during trial so far, DM does actually appear to be having a jolly good time. Mind blowing, isn't it?

 

[matou]

DM seems driven by money, timelines and roadblocks to his wants and needs. I can see how that related to TB and his father but not sure yet about Laura.

 

[MsSherlock]

DM seems driven by money, timelines and roadblocks to his wants and needs. I can see how that related to TB and his father but not sure yet about Laura.

If he finally found a gf who was 100% loyal to him, and we can certainly see how loyal CN was, perhaps getting rid of LB was a necessity to show his dedication to CN?

 

[Orderly]

Hmm, I think all those motives have in common that DM wanted something but didn't get it or couldn't have it so he got rid of the person keeping him from what he wanted. His tattoos would explain that mentality.

With regards to the LB murder, there has to be a reason why she called him eight times the night she died. She was either in love with him, needed something from him or blackmailing him? All is possible, but he probably did not "need" to kill her it could be over something completely unexpected like she had a drug habit, she couldn't afford it and he no longer wanted to pay for it in return for favours. Plus, his girlfriend probably didn't like it so he got rid of her.

With regards to his fathers murder his dad was doing stuff with the company that was not going to be profitable and he did not agree with it. So, he killed him to get him out of the way so he could do as he liked with the company.

With TB's murder, motive is pretty clear he wanted to sell the trucks parts and make some money of it. TB is in the way of what they want so they kill him (not necessarily physically in the way, just his presence).

I think what would be interesting to find out would be MS's motive because he's largely stayed out of the limelight because all the focus has been on DM. I wonder if he was being paid by DM for this or something? He probably would have gotten a cut from selling the TB's truck. Also, he clearly had an interest in murder and gore. Maybe, he was recruited to help with LB's murder in an innocuous way (clean it up) but then DM blackmailed him and then the second time he couldn't get out of helping him?

So many maybe's. IMO

 

[MsSherlock]

It takes a special class of monster to revel in infamy & notoriety when what you're known for is how vile you are. By all accounts from those present during trial so far, DM does actually appear to be having a jolly good time. Mind blowing, isn't it?

It's kind of messed watching this trial unfold knowing that the two guys sitting there know exactly what happened that night. The two of them know the how, why, when and where - they know the evidence that the Crown has against them, yet it's up to the Crown to painstakingly piece it all together to prove to a Jury that DM & MS really did what they themselves know they did. Gutless, sad & disgusting. MOO

 

[matou]

Hmm, I think all those motives have in common that DM wanted something but didn't get it or couldn't have it so he got rid of the person keeping him from what he wanted. His tattoos would explain that mentality.

With regards to the LB murder, there has to be a reason why she called him eight times the night she died. She was either in love with him, needed something from him or blackmailing him? All is possible, but he probably did not "need" to kill her it could be over something completely unexpected like she had a drug habit, she couldn't afford it and he no longer wanted to pay for it in return for favours. Plus, his girlfriend probably didn't like it so he got rid of her.

With regards to his fathers murder his dad was doing stuff with the company that was not going to be profitable and he did not agree with it. So, he killed him to get him out of the way so he could do as he liked with the company.

With TB's murder, motive is pretty clear he wanted to sell the trucks parts and make some money of it. TB is in the way of what they want so they kill him (not necessarily physically in the way, just his presence).

I think what would be interesting to find out would be MS's motive because he's largely stayed out of the limelight because all the focus has been on DM. I wonder if he was being paid by DM for this or something? He probably would have gotten a cut from selling the TB's truck. Also, he clearly had an interest in murder and gore. Maybe, he was recruited to help with LB's murder in an innocuous way (clean it up) but then DM blackmailed him and then the second time he couldn't get out of helping him?

So many maybe's. IMO

You bring up a good point: if DM wanted the truck, what was in it for Smich? Was it a favour for letting him or gf stay in one of his properties (maybe for free?) Blackmail over Laura, as you suggest? JMO

 

[musicaljoke]

DM seems driven by money, timelines and roadblocks to his wants and needs. I can see how that related to TB and his father but not sure yet about Laura.

I wonder if LB was murdered because she was a threat to DM. Did she know something spurious about DM?

We might not hear about the motive in any of these cases. The Crown isn't obligated to prove a motive, especially when there is a tome of evidence as there must be in the murders of TB and LB. DM went straight to trial, without a preliminary hearing, a rare procedure, done only with the permission of the Attorney General.

There was an explanation about the role of motive in a trial, provided by sillybilly at 232, 233.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-w-Murder-Christina-Noudga-Accessory-3/page16