Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[SnooperDuper]

CN wasn't cooperative with investigators when she was arrested though. She knew what LE had when they searched her place, her phone, etc. Why was she charged at the same time that the charges came out for the murders of Laura Babcock and Wayne Millard? Did she give LE info they needed for those investigations (either directly or indirectly) but ended up with accessory charges for Tim Bosma's murder? It can't be a coincidence. JMO

LE came out really early, within the first week or two of the crime, with a statement that they were interested in CN and that she was not cooperating...and I expect LE never changed their position, as when CN was arrested, they said something along the lines of, we don't usually arrest cooperating witnesses.

I am sure they had a wiretap on her and were listening for info...perhaps they found out some interesting tidbits because I think they decided to surveil her right up until April, when they were ready to lay charges in the other two cases. They then brought down the hammer on CN, arrested her, and checked for evidence...which brought out all the letters DM had sent her.

If someone else were receiving these letters on her behalf and bringing them to her, perhaps arrangements were made on the phone and LE was aware that letters were being exchanged.

At any rate I think CN was of interest to LE for a very long time. I think the wait to arrest her was intentional so that LE could continue to surveil her and pick up info.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I get what you're saying. With CN's affiliation with all things DM, in the google world, it could be especially hard when you're a parent and independent business person sharing the family name. Things were a bit easier for KH's family, because they themselves were victims- not the case here. Even RW was concerned about his wife- as bizarre as that sounds. DM and MS will have destroyed a lot of lives by the time this trial is over. Some may be behind bars, others will have to deal with it everyday on the outside. JMHO

I really wonder if CN received guidance from someone or if she resolved to defend DM to the bitter end on her own. You would think her parents would encourage her to have nothing to do with DM after his arrest. CN must have been closer to DM and his friends and his family than her own? Yet she is living with her parents (and decided not to honour them.)

 

[Juballee]

I imagine that because CN had a lawyer, that she followed her lawyer's advice. Most lawyers usually advise you to remain silent when it comes to LE, especially if they think you may actually be charged with a crime at some point.

I also think I recall hearing that CN has given a statement since her arrest, so I doubt that there will be things that she will say on the stand that will shock either the crown or the defence, unless she goes completely off script. Lawyers for either side don't ask questions on the stand that they do not already have an answer to, this isn't Perry Mason, trial is no place for fishing expeditions.

All my opinion only.

 

[Kamille]

All I can think to say about the letters is that CN has been wearing an ankle bracelet to remind her of her perilous future since she was bailed. She also had a short stint behind bars so she has had a taste of what she's in for.

At this point, I think she will spill everything she knows about the letters and the crime to save herself.

That means throwing DM under the bus, but I wonder who else will join him? I.e., when CN made the decision to support DM, did she do that alone? Did others encourage her to hide the details of the crime for DM's benefit? After all, DM has had a lot of support it seems in that SS was willing to keep his secrets, maybe too AM.

I wonder if there will be any charges for anyone else coming out of this once CN's testimony is heard.

I also wonder about the penalty for CN - TLM did not get a break after testifying...will CN have enough information to make things all better for her?

I really think that CN will cover for herself by claiming she had no idea why they were moving stuff around that night. They were just hanging out and DM had to run a few errands so she went with him. She doesn't question him about his business. And then she'll say that after his arrest she got scared and told her parents about that evening. They in turn got her a lawyer who told her to clam up and so she did. And of course she didn't throw out anything that she received from DM because her lawyer told her not to destroy or tamper with any evidence that she inadvertently found herself in possession of. I don't think she will tell much at all about what she really knows. I don't think AJ did and I don't think SS will either. They are all telling just enough about their "innocent" knowledge of this murder to cover their own butts.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

I imagine that because CN had a lawyer, that she followed her lawyer's advice. Most lawyers usually advise you to remain silent when it comes to LE, especially if they think you may actually be charged with a crime at some point.

I also think I recall hearing that CN has given a statement since her arrest, so I doubt that there will be things that she will say on the stand that will shock either the crown or the defence, unless she goes completely off script. Lawyers for either side don't ask questions on the stand that they do not already have an answer to, this isn't Perry Mason, trial is no place for fishing expeditions.

All my opinion only.

I have to say that the lawyer gave CN really bad advice, because if she had only spoken up at the time of DM's arrest (or soon after), she never would have faced charges.

SS and AM apparently both knew incriminating information against DM, and neither is charged, so we can imagine that they spoke freely to LE.

So the question is, who gave CN really bad advice?

A lawyer is not likely to say, don't cooperate until you are charged for a crime that carries a life sentence. That seems like a huge gamble when there is an easy way out.

Besides, if DM is truly innocent, CN would have no information to his detriment. If he's guilty...well, why should CN hide that? For the millions? (Perhaps she was so enamoured of the dream of sharing DM's millions as his wife, she alone decided that she would do anything for him.)

 

[SnooperDuper]

I really think that CN will cover for herself by claiming she had no idea why they were moving stuff around that night. They were just hanging out and DM had to run a few errands so she went with him. She doesn't question him about his business. And then she'll say that after his arrest she got scared and told her parents about that evening. They in turn got her a lawyer who told her to clam up and so she did. And of course she didn't throw out anything that she received from DM because her lawyer told her not to destroy or tamper with any evidence that she inadvertently found herself in possession of. I don't think she will tell much at all about what she really knows. I don't think AJ did and I don't think SS will either. They are all telling just enough about their "innocent" knowledge of this murder to cover their own butts.

MOO

No, I think this case is big enough that these people will be haunted socially in the world outside the courtroom for their involvement, and it is time to come clean to hope to redeem themselves in the eyes of friends, family and the public.

At one point people were arguing, there's no proof that it was even DM and MS that was on the test drive...now everyone has conceded that the two were involved in the crime, and the only question is to what degree did each participate, and was there a plan.

Because of the wealth of evidence against DM and MS, I don't think the witnesses will be able to get away with just scraping the surface of what they know. LE surveilled a number of DM's friends, with 6 warrants on phones for the night of the crime alone. CN, SS, AM and MM were tracked closely. LE probably knows a lot of their involvement and can prove it with information gleaned from the warrants and interviews with the people that they called. Given that they themselves were subject to investigation in a very intense, well-manned investigation...they are not going to get away with keeping their mouths shut, because then LE will use evidence to speak for them.

 

[Orderly]

If their defences had nothing in common than there would be two separate trials. Thus, their defences will have to have something in common, maybe both will admit to trying to steal the truck.

I've been reading this forum for a while, but I've never written. I've been curious about some of the stuff you guys have said.

1. If MS was in the back of the car, it makes no sense for DM to have shot him from the side because it's a lot easier to shoot someone who wasn't expecting it. Even if, hypothetically speaking, he did shoot him his body would not have remained upright and would have fallen either sideways or forward and either would probably have had to move it to the back of the car. He'd still be pretty heavy so it would take both of them. This in my opinion would explain why there would be so much blood in the back of the car.
2. Why would people not testify against them? I think they would because many people have some king of moral compass and even if they liked the accused they'd be inclined to speak against them because they've read about what happened or have sympathy for the victim. Plus, what can be done to them if these guys are in prison? I think CN has great reason to speak out against her ex-boyfriend, mostly because she wants to move on with her life and she can't if they're acquitted and it'd look good on her during her own trial or if she gets convicted at sentencing (co-operating with the Crown is always a good idea). Plus, I'm pretty sure since it's been two years since this happened she's over him romantically and angry at what he got her into (even if she did participate in some of it willingly).
3. On the subject of segregation to protect them. This is a big profile case, these guys are charged with multiple murders you want them as healthy as possible to stand trial if anything happened to them the public would be outraged.

 

[redheart]

I hope you're right, Snooper. I hope they aren't allowed to get away with keeping their mouths shut, whether it by LE or pressure from family and friends. I'm disgusted by the thought that the people on the edges of this monstrous crime had some knowledge and did very little or nothing to expose DM/MS.

 

[Juballee]

I have to say that the lawyer gave CN really bad advice, because if she had only spoken up at the time of DM's arrest (or soon after), she never would have faced charges.

SS and AM apparently both knew incriminating information against DM, and neither is charged, so we can imagine that they spoke freely to LE.

So the question is, who gave CN really bad advice?

A lawyer is not likely to say, don't cooperate until you are charged for a crime that carries a life sentence. That seems like a huge gamble when there is an easy way out.

Besides, if DM is truly innocent, CN would have no information to his detriment. If he's guilty...well, why should CN hide that? For the millions? (Perhaps she was so enamoured of the dream of sharing DM's millions as his wife, she alone decided that she would do anything for him.)

I am not of the opinion that speaking up at the time of his arrest would have insured that she would not have been charged with a crime. Confessing to being an accessory after the fact can still get you charged with being an accessory after the fact. There is no rule that if you speak up soon after a crime that you escape charges.

Unless one has been to law school, it is very difficult to determine whether the advice of another lawyer is sound or not, in my opinion, especially when we don't know what particularly that advice was. So far all discussion of CN's testimony is pretty much speculative until we hear what she does actually testify to.

Having knowledge of a crime is not a crime in itself, it is different than being an accessory. We don't know what SS and AM know, what they might have said, or whether or not it was with a lawyer's advice yet. They have not testified yet either, so their knowledge is all speculation at this point as well.



There has been so much hard evidence and testimony brought forward in the last couple of weeks that I would rather discuss, I personally feel like it's a bit of a waste to speculate on the testimony that hasn't been presented yet. Speculation was all we had to go on for 2 1/2 years, now that we have some real testimony and evidence, I'd rather delve into all that.

 

[Kamille]

No, I think this case is big enough that these people will be haunted socially in the world outside the courtroom for their involvement, and it is time to come clean to hope to redeem themselves in the eyes of friends, family and the public.

At one point people were arguing, there's no proof that it was even DM and MS that was on the test drive...now everyone has conceded that the two were involved in the crime, and the only question is to what degree did each participate, and was there a plan.

Because of the wealth of evidence against DM and MS, I don't think the witnesses will be able to get away with just scraping the surface of what they know. LE surveilled a number of DM's friends, with 6 warrants on phones for the night of the crime alone. CN, SS, AM and MM were tracked closely. LE probably knows a lot of their involvement and can prove it with information gleaned from the warrants and interviews with the people that they called. Given that they themselves were subject to investigation in a very intense, well-manned investigation...they are not going to get away with keeping their mouths shut, because then LE will use evidence to speak for them.

There is a difference between knowledge and involvement IMO. I do not believe any of these people were involved or they would have been charged as well. But I do believe there were some people who had knowledge of the fact that a truck was going to be stolen, and the reason why. They also had knowledge that DM and MS were the people that LE were seeking when the information about TB and the "test drive" first hit the media. Then at some point some of them had knowledge that the truck owner was killed. We don't know at this point how many, if any, went to LE with their knowledge or waited for LE to come to them. But it appears that only one had actual involvement in the clean up afterwards and didn't choose to tell LE about it, which she could have done all the while covering her own butt about how she didn't know why they were moving stuff around or what they were moving around, so she is charged accordingly. Or maybe there is more to her involvement? Maybe she did try to get a witness to change his testimony? We'll have to wait for her trial to see I guess.

As far as redeeming themselves socially, these people will not be ostracized in their social circles for the information that they are telling on the witness stand, even if it's not everything they know. And they won't be ostracized in their own personal social circles for the information that sleuthers on the internet think they are leaving out IMO. Their families and friends will stick by them and believe they did the right thing.

MOO

 

[Night_is_Mine]

This is what I want to know. Are MS and DM just really, really, really stupid? Even if they did not intend on killing TB, only stealing his truck at gun point and somehow a struggle ensued and he got killed. Even then you are showing your faces to TB, his wife, some other guy who lives there etc. Wouldn't you be worried that police will find you since you're showing your faces to witnesses like it's nothing? And if they did intend on killing TB and taking his truck, then they're 1000 times as dumb for the same reasons. Then you throw his phone away undamaged? You let your employees see the truck just sitting there like it's nothing even though it's all over the news? Then MS tells his GF they stole a truck and the guy is gone? Why would you tell ANYONE?? Are you just begging to go to prison? The Lucas Bate phone thing is the only thing suggesting he actually tried to cover his tracks at all. But even then don't you understand they can track your calls from that phone to the other sellers of the truck and contact them for description ? Is this guy slow or something ? Plus why would this guy who is a millionaire resort to stealing cars anyway? And lastly why did the GF of DM have the DVR of them in the hangar ? Why did DM give it to her for safe keeping ? Wouldn't he destroy it right away???

 

[MsSherlock]

I imagine that because CN had a lawyer, that she followed her lawyer's advice. Most lawyers usually advise you to remain silent when it comes to LE, especially if they think you may actually be charged with a crime at some point.

I also think I recall hearing that CN has given a statement since her arrest, so I doubt that there will be things that she will say on the stand that will shock either the crown or the defence, unless she goes completely off script. Lawyers for either side don't ask questions on the stand that they do not already have an answer to, this isn't Perry Mason, trial is no place for fishing expeditions.

All my opinion only.

It's kind of hard to know if CN will be able to stay "on script" or if she'll cave under pressure, especially when this is the first time she's been in DM's presence since the "no contact" order. She may be tough enough to move an incinerator and help DM do whatever DM needed done, but is she really tough enough to sit there with DM staring her down, smack dab in the middle of a Judge and Jury, answering questions from the Crown and MS's legal team- all in front of a court room jammed with reporters, the widow and family of TB, LE and spectators? How strong will she be knowing that from that day on, all of her actions will be public knowledge and on every single news report? Anything she say's at this trial cannot be held against her in her own trial, so DM may be surprised with what comes out of her mouth. MOO

 

[Orderly]

It's kind of hard to know if CN will be able to stay "on script" or if she'll cave under pressure, especially when this is the first time she's been in DM's presence since the "no contact" order. She may be tough enough to move an incinerator and help DM do whatever DM needed done, but is she really tough enough to sit there with DM staring her down, smack dab in the middle of a Judge and Jury, answering questions from the Crown and MS's legal team- all in front of a court room jammed with reporters, the widow and family of TB, LE and spectators? How strong will she be knowing that from that day on, all of her actions will be public knowledge and on every single news report? Anything she say's at this trial cannot be held against her in her own trial, so DM may be surprised with what comes out of her mouth. MOO

At this point there would be a script that she follows and she would've been coached by the Crown. Maybe, on cross-examination there could be a surprise but the Crown would not want to bring anything up that is outside their narrative. I very much doubt she'd suggest that someone else did it or try to raise reasonable doubt because she is a Crown's witness. Plus, if she does say something that she is not allowed to say regarding what happened that is prejudicial to the accused, there could be objections from the Defence. She wants to appear as credible as possible on the stand and cannot change what she is saying or say something outrageous that she has not said before because she will not be considered credible and her testimony could have a negative affect.

IMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Night_isMine, Orderly, welcome aboard!

:welcome:

 

[Night_is_Mine]

Night_isMine, Orderly, welcome aboard!

:welcome:

Thanks!

 

[puppyraiser]

I'm sorry, but if any one of the people in DM and MS's life that week had ANY type of moral compass it would not have taken until Mother's Day for the truck to be located... BY A REPORTER. There is very, very little doubt in my mind that SS and AJ and anyone else at that hangar who saw the truck were not able to 'see' blood inside it. Tim Bosma's name and pictures of that truck hit the news first thing the day after the test drive. CN and MM aren't getting a free pass either. The needle of their moral compass is askew.

 

[Kamille]

I'm sorry, but if any one of the people in DM and MS's life that week had ANY type of moral compass it would not have taken until Mother's Day for the truck to be located... BY A REPORTER. There is very, very little doubt in my mind that SS and AJ and anyone else at that hangar who saw the truck were not able to 'see' blood inside it. Tim Bosma's name and pictures of that truck hit the news first thing the day after the test drive. CN and MM aren't getting a free pass either. The needle of their moral compass isn't pointing where it should be either.

BBM

Exactly. But we're not hearing that on the stand so far...at least not with AJ. We'll see about the rest.

I agree. So far, the first person told the bare minimum of what he knew. And it took him from Wednesday until Friday to go to LE with limited information. The rest never went. But their social circles seem to have accepted this.

MOO

 

[puppyraiser]

BBM

Exactly. But we're not hearing that on the stand so far...at least not with AJ. We'll see about the rest.

I agree. So far, the first person told the bare minimum of what he knew. And it took him from Wednesday until Friday to go to LE with limited information. The rest never went. But their social circles seem to have accepted this.

MOO

That's the part that saddens me the most. It sure seems like a lot of people knew or had a really good idea of the severity (after the fact) and all either went into CYA mode or turned a blind eye.

 

[SnooperDuper]

You know what would be great to have? A list of witnesses and the day(s) on which they testified.

I have a feeling that once we get into the testimony of CN, AM, SS, MM etc. we will want to refer back to certain expert witnesses to compare testimony, and since the discussions and twitter postings are all organized by day, it would be nice to have a list of witnesses organized by day.

 

[Ontario Mom]

This is what I want to know. Are MS and DM just really, really, really stupid?

IMHO? Yes.