Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #3

[Night_is_Mine]

I think it's pretty clear they didn't plan on killing TB. (Unless they are completely brain dead) Why would you shoot him in the front seat of the car you are stealing? Do you want blood all over the car? Do you want to travel back with a dead man in your car? Do you really kill a man after having his wife and some other guy see you? Not to mention all the subsequent frantic disorganized clearly unprepared attempts at cover up. If they did wanna kill him (thrill kill or w.e) wouldn't they stop the truck and say they wanna take a look at some outside part of the truck and then after tim is out just shoot him in the field? No need for burning seats. Burning your clothes. No shattered window. No GSR no blood splatter etc. One of them pulled a gun and TB tried to grab it and they shot him. Either to kill him or it went off in a struggle. (Again. Unless they are brain dead and this was the plan)

 

[matou]

It would have to be. The one in this case was delivered in July 2012. It also hasn't been established how the incinerator was shipped and by whom. Tri Star may have been the Canadian Distributor but it may have been shipped direct to MillardAir from Georgia.


MOO

Could DM have used his invoice to go to the US and pick up the incinerator directly? Using his custom-made trailer?

 

[MsSherlock]

My question would be, why would DM, who clearly had no legitimate, business, farming, livestock related need to actually own an incinerator in the first place, purchase one at all?

1. to destroy evidence of stolen vehicles? Do chop shops normally use incinerators? If yes, what exactly are they burning? (a google search brings up THIS case as the #1 result, oddly enough)
2. to destroy evidence of human beings? Of course we can all speculate here but... was Tim the first one?

I just do not see any legit need for DM to own such a piece of equipment. He wasn't running an airline, he didn't have a massive waste disposal issue to deal with (for that matter, it appears he simply used his Yukon to take plenty of waste on little trips here and there), he had exactly ZERO livestock and yet he purposely chose this piece of machinery. It truly makes NO sense to me.

moo.

IMHO, DM had absolutely no agricultural or aviation related need for an incinerator designed for industrial poultry operations. Perhaps the defence plans on showing the Jury how him, SS and AJ produced bags and bags of garbage in their trailer or e-bike making endeavours and he somehow needed an incinerator with a 500 lb capacity to dispose of it. But now that I think about it, he could have probably filled it from the contents of his Yukon! He purchased it in June, 2012. Millardair already had their occupancy permit for the hangar; construction was complete. The MRO was in the tooling phase. WM had a team looking after things-DM was the figure head CEO who didn't seem to have a schedule. And besides, if it was legit, why the heck didn't DM keep it in the hangar? mmmm

 

[billandrew]

Based on my notes, they would have been at the farm moving the incinerator in the very early hours of May 10th.

According to the Crown's opening statement, the Eliminator was moved after DM and CN dropped off the trailer at DM's mother's house. Subsequently, they took the locked toolbox to DM's friend's house.

We've learned the security camera in Kleinburg showed the truck and trailer at 10:50 PM on May 9th, and that they were still in Kleinburg between 11:00 and 11:30 PM (DM got texts from MS and "Whidden", and CN's phone calls "Hagerman"). At 1:23 AM on May 10th, DM got a text from MS (pinged in Milton). IMO they were on their way to farm (or back from the farm, assuming they were able to move the incinerator quickly). At 3:43 AM, DM/CN phones are pinging in Milton (IMO, this is where the friend keeping the toolbox lived).

Links:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/297569867/Crown-s-opening-address
http://embed.scribblelive.com/Embed/v7.aspx?Id=1840307&Page=1&overlay=false

Thank you for this. It was right in the opening statement:

"Mr. Millard’s girlfriend will testify in this trial. She is currently charged with Accessory After the Fact to Murder for her role in events after the murder of Tim Bosma. Her trial on this charge is pending. In her statement to police she said, among other things, she was with Mr. Millard when he towed the trailer and truck to Mr. Millard’s mother’s in Kleinburg on May 9th; she was with Mr. Millard when they moved the Eliminator into the stand of trees that same night after dropping off the truck and trailer at Mr. Millard’s mothers’; and she said she was with Mr. Millard when he took the locked tool box to his friend’s house in the early morning hours of May 10th."

What a busy night they had! I wonder if LE has other evidence to place her on the farm. Fingerprints on the incinerator (or its trailer), or fingerprints on the flashlight they found beside the incinerator? I guess we will find out soon enough.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Could DM have used his invoice to go to the US and pick up the incinerator directly? Using his custom-made trailer?

I don't know why DM would have invoices from Tri-Star if he were actually dealing directly with the manufacturer - that doesn't make sense.

I think we can trust that the incinerator came from the Canadian distributor in Manitoba that issued the invoice. Photos of incinerators in their yard just proves they kept stock on hand.

 

[paris_paris]

Etobicoke to Waterloo (no specific location) pulled from Google maps.

1 hour via 401
1 hour 4 mins via QEW and 401
1 hour 13 mins via 403

Not sure how accurate Google maps is? I would assume these times are, minimal traffic and no construction delays.

When you don't put in a specific location it takes you from city hall to city hall. Didn't someone say the ping was actually on the 401 closer to Milton?

 

[Orderly]

I think it's pretty clear they didn't plan on killing TB. (Unless they are completely brain dead) Why would you shoot him in the front seat of the car you are stealing? Do you want blood all over the car? Do you want to travel back with a dead man in your car? Do you really kill a man after having his wife and some other guy see you? Not to mention all the subsequent frantic disorganized clearly unprepared attempts at cover up. If they did wanna kill him (thrill kill or w.e) wouldn't they stop the truck and say they wanna take a look at some outside part of the truck and then after tim is out just shoot him in the field? No need for burning seats. Burning your clothes. No shattered window. No GSR no blood splatter etc. One of them pulled a gun and TB tried to grab it and they shot him. Either to kill him or it went off in a struggle. (Again. Unless they are brain dead and this was the plan)

IMO

Why would they bring a gun then? If they were planning to let him go and just take his truck, he would have been robbed at gunpoint, they would have taken the truck and TB would have gone to the police. Two guys with a stolen truck might not warrant that much police attention but once they have a gun, it becomes very serious.

I don't think they were planning on the amount of publicity this case was going to get or there being so many witnesses. I do think that his previous murders were different in terms of the victims he allegedly chose. His dad had a drinking problem, no one expected him to commit suicide but then again no one was shocked that he did. For the sake of the family, cases of suicide are often wrapped up very fast. Then, there was Laura who was using drugs and living a high-risk lifestyle. When she went missing, people assumed that because of her lifestyle it was reasonable that she could have ran away. Then there was TB. I'm going to try to explain this using the "Ideal Victim Model" it is generally used for chances of a rape conviction but it can also apply to murder convictions.

1. The victim is weak in relation to the offender – TB was smaller physically
2. The victim is, if not acting virtuously, then at least going about their legitimate, ordinary everyday business. - TB was selling a truck and the money was going to go towards buying a new home, which is definitely virtuous.
3. The victim is blameless for what happened. - He was just trying to sell a truck.
4. The victim is unrelated to and does not know the ‘stranger’ who has committed the offence (which also implies that the offender is a person rather than a corporation; and that the offence is a random incident. - He did not know them.
5. The offender is unambiguously big and bad. - They are stealing a truck from a family man and they killed him. Both are not particularly sympathetic personalities because they come from a middle to upper socioeconomic backgrounds, have no reason not to be working respectable jobs and leading respectable lives and really had no reason to kill a man for a truck.
6. The victim has the right combination of power, influence or sympathy to successfully elicit victim status without threatening (and thus risking opposition from) strong countervailing vested interests. - He's a young man, growing his family trying to make ends meet. His widow is authentic and seems like a genuinely lovely person.

I think this typology explains why TB's case would gather more media and public interest.

 

[Kamille]

I don't know why DM would have invoices from Tri-Star if he were actually dealing directly with the manufacturer - that doesn't make sense.

I think we can trust that the incinerator came from the Canadian distributor in Manitoba that issued the invoice. Photos of incinerators in their yard just proves they kept stock on hand.

I don't think a photo of one incinerator in google maps shows "stock" in the yard. It may have either been theirs or one that was ordered by another customer and had just been shipped there. But I believe everything we've been led to believe states that MillardAir received the incinerator in July 2012? Ordered in June, received in July.

And for a purchase that large, coming across the border, the Canadian distributor would be required to make sure all tariffs and taxes were paid and the proper paperwork was taken care of. By using a Canadian distributor, DM did not have to deal with all of these regulations before bringing the incinerator into the country. So the company in Georgia would have either shipped the incinerator across border to Manitoba and then Tri Star would have arranged to have it shipped to MillardAir, or they may have arranged for a direct shipment to MillardAir once all the paperwork was completed. And in that case, the incinerator could have been shipped directly to the end user from the manufacturer, or perhaps, to make it quicker, the end user, with paperwork in hand, could pick up the product and present the paperwork at the border?

MOO

 

[Prairie_dawg]

It would have to be. The one in this case was delivered in July 2012. It also hasn't been established how the incinerator was shipped and by whom. Tri Star may have been the Canadian Distributor but it may have been shipped direct to MillardAir from Georgia.


MOO

BBM: I seem to recall reports or speculation one of the friends or staff drove to Manitoba to pick it up. IIRC I will have to dig a long way back for that though, unless someone else has that handy? Perhaps we will hear more about this too in the coming days.

 

[Night_is_Mine]

So based on what DM said in his letter to CN (Shane or someone ) will say something in their testimony that will seal the deal for DM. I am curious what it will be.

 

[jash]

Could DM have used his invoice to go to the US and pick up the incinerator directly? Using his custom-made trailer?

Would police be able to obtain information regarding DM's travels via border crossings/passport usage? I don't think it would factor into the Tim Bosma case, but could in others (perhaps yet to be discovered).

Anecdotally it's known that DM was in Nevada in late April 2012 (to pick up a Camaro). In August 2012, he was sailing in Croatia.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

I think it's pretty clear they didn't plan on killing TB. (Unless they are completely brain dead) Why would you shoot him in the front seat of the car you are stealing? Do you want blood all over the car? Do you want to travel back with a dead man in your car? Do you really kill a man after having his wife and some other guy see you? Not to mention all the subsequent frantic disorganized clearly unprepared attempts at cover up. If they did wanna kill him (thrill kill or w.e) wouldn't they stop the truck and say they wanna take a look at some outside part of the truck and then after tim is out just shoot him in the field? No need for burning seats. Burning your clothes. No shattered window. No GSR no blood splatter etc. One of them pulled a gun and TB tried to grab it and they shot him. Either to kill him or it went off in a struggle. (Again. Unless they are brain dead and this was the plan)

I am in total agreement here, the facts don't diminish the 1st degree murder charge for a second.

I find it ridiculous to have pulled the trigger in the truck DM wanted and basically render the truck useless. (Its why smart criminals torch a crime vehicle) I think the sheer arrogance of DM went to plan B and the sloppy cover up began. Plan A was kick Tim out and jack the vehicle, Plan B was the gun shot during a struggle and of course the messy clean up. Tim likely saw the tiny gun and gambled it was fake or a joke and fought back. Sadly it was very real.

 

[Kamille]

BBM: I seem to recall reports or speculation one of the friends or staff drove to Manitoba to pick it up. IIRC I will have to dig a long way back for that though, unless someone else has that handy? Perhaps we will hear more about this too in the coming days.

That's possible too I suppose. Although I don't think TriStar would have had a whole selection of incinerators hanging around their yard. It still would have had to be ordered by them and shipped to them by SuperNova before anyone could come and pick it up IMO.



MOO

 

[paris_paris]

I must note that this is considered rumour...

My son knows a guy who just spent 3 months in jail where DM is. He said a laptop is brought to DM's cell twice a week to do trial research. DM doesn't have much opportunity to talk to other inmates, but only ever talks about the trial, never about his past. He commented after one trial day that someone called he and MS *advertiser censored**ers.

Just random stuff, but I was surprised about the laptop use.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I think it's pretty clear they didn't plan on killing TB. (Unless they are completely brain dead) Why would you shoot him in the front seat of the car you are stealing? Do you want blood all over the car? Do you want to travel back with a dead man in your car? Do you really kill a man after having his wife and some other guy see you? Not to mention all the subsequent frantic disorganized clearly unprepared attempts at cover up. If they did wanna kill him (thrill kill or w.e) wouldn't they stop the truck and say they wanna take a look at some outside part of the truck and then after tim is out just shoot him in the field? No need for burning seats. Burning your clothes. No shattered window. No GSR no blood splatter etc. One of them pulled a gun and TB tried to grab it and they shot him. Either to kill him or it went off in a struggle. (Again. Unless they are brain dead and this was the plan)

I'd love it to be clear, but it just isn't to me. I'm not at all convinced it wasn't planned - if not by both - by at least DM. I think it has been established that both DM and MS were incredibly sloppy in their attempts to cover up what they'd done, so I don't think either of them is going to qualify for a mensa membership anytime soon. Or, ever, for that matter. That said...

Why shoot a man in the front seat of the truck you're stealing? Because they didn't care about the interior of the cab.
Do you want to travel with a dead man in your vehicle? If a pesky thing like a deceased individual was bothersome to them, they'd have never done it in the first place.
Do you shoot a man after his wife and another man have seen you? Sure, if you're a.) someone without a mug shot in the system, b.) someone who was using a fake name on a burner phone and c.) someone who can't really be identified by a car, a name, etc. and finally d.) someone who has killed before and not only never got caught, was never even suspected of being the killer. DM's arrogance was in top form that night.

Do I believe it was actually planned? No, not really. But at the same time I'm not convinced it wasn't.

moo.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

I am in total agreement here, the facts don't diminish the 1st degree murder charge for a second.

I find it ridiculous to have pulled the trigger in the truck DM wanted and basically render the truck useless. (Its why smart criminals torch a crime vehicle) I think the sheer arrogance of DM went to plan B and the sloppy cover up began. Plan A was kick Tim out and jack the vehicle, Plan B was the gun shot during a struggle and of course the messy clean up. Tim likely saw the tiny gun and gambled it was fake or a joke and fought back. Sadly it was very real.

Sorry for the add on, but lets expand on this a wee bit further. The shell casing makes sense with a right handed ejection into the back seat. The panic that ensued when the two accused had a HOLY &%#@ moment after the first shot, they then took Tim out of the truck and possibly running him over rather than shooting outside the truck. (ALL speculation on my part!) The body was then wrapped and carried in one of the two vehicles. Interesting that the Blue Yukon with the hidey plate covers was used here and not the bright red Dodge??? Support for plan A jacking scenario where Tim would be let out in the field and would not be able to identify the Yukon via plate. I suspect they then stopped somewhere along the way to the farm/hanger to have a discussion as to what the heck they were going to do. This is likely where Tim's phone was discovered as well. The sloppy cover up now in full swing.

 

[Kamille]

Wow...just out of curiosity I checked out Tristar Dairy in Streetview. Couldn't believe it when I saw that you could view images from Aug 2012. Look what's in the parking lot!

View attachment 89501

Do you have a link for this photo? I can't seem to find this streetview.

TIA

ETA: Nevermind, I found it. It appears they have two different addresses

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.3992...!2e0!5s20141001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

[CJPRINCESS]

BBM: I seem to recall reports or speculation one of the friends or staff drove to Manitoba to pick it up. IIRC I will have to dig a long way back for that though, unless someone else has that handy? Perhaps we will hear more about this too in the coming days.

But, in the tweets/blogs from courtroom hearing. They (repoters) say "shipped from Georgia to Millardair"
A Canadian company can be a dealer but not physically have product on hand. This would be called "drop shipping". Also, DM had extras added to his unit that may make it custom order. I worked for a company that we did this with. We had our own units/machine brand but we were a dealer of another brand in the States. We sold and made profit but did not physically keep inventory of that specific line. However we did have a few machines at our shop, that we did not sell. They were shipped to us so we knew what we were selling and be able to assist customers on operations of the unit.

 

[Kamille]

But, in the tweets/blogs from courtroom hearing. They (repoters) say "shipped from Georgia to Millardair"
A Canadian company can be a dealer but not physically have product on hand. This would be called "drop shipping". Also, DM had extras added to his unit that may make it custom order. I worked for a company that we did this with. We had our own units/machine brand but we were a dealer of another brand in the States. We sold and made profit but did not physically keep inventory of that specific line. However we did have a few machines at our shop, that we did not sell. They were shipped to us so we knew what we were selling and be able to assist customers on operations of the unit.

Do you have a link to a reporter tweet or blog stating this? That would be helpful.

TIA

 

[paris_paris]

Do you have a link to a reporter tweet or blog stating this? That would be helpful.

TIA

This link says shipped from Georgia to Millardair.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6312140-clairmont-bosma-family-bear-witness-as-grim-photos-displayed/