Boulder Police meet with JonBenet Ramsey's now adult brother

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
We really need to stop and ponder on this. IF, as John and Patsy claim, someone crept into their home on Christmas night, abducted their 6 yr old daughter from her bed, tortured, abused and murdered her right under their noses in their home, and then left a 3 page letter full of threats of death - would they REALLY volunteer their young son to not just leave their side, but their HOUSE? And galavant across town to hang out somewhere? Somewhere away from their watchful eye and protection - while there is "someone" out there claiming to be WATCHING THEM? Someone who had, at that point before JonBenet's body was "found", kidnapped her, according to what John & Patsy claim to have believed during this time!
So if they BELIEVED that their daughter had been kidnapped by these brutal people who threatened to behead her if they did not follow their instructions, why would they, not only ignore every demand by the kidnapppers (calling authorities, friends over so that it is OBVIOUS to anyone "watching" them) but on top of that shoo their vulnerable young son away out there into the path of the kidnappers??
Not a chance in **ll that any responsible parent would do that!
In fact, they would hang onto every word in that letter - it is the ONLY link to their missing daughter.
They would be fearful to stand in front of a window for fear someone may have them in the cross hairs - because they said they are 'watching' them.

No, John and Patsy KNEW there were no kidnappers out there.
They knew that this was just part of the act, the staging and role they must play until the body is found and the police back off, let them bury her, grieve in seclusion and "get on with their lives."
They knew they did not need to fear Burke leaving their side.
They knew they needed to scoot him out of the house that day, out of range of the detectives milling about the house who might get him to say something they don't want him to say.
Best to just tell him to say ONLY that he was "asleep" that night and morning and heard nothing and saw nothing.

Afterall, this is how you keep a dirty little family secret - well... secret.

Just my own humble opinion here.
~Angel~

AND.... another thought: they KNEW that her body was going to be "discovered" INSIDE that house. They did not want him around when that happened.
 
That is very true belimom.

The other important point is the fact that after John & Patsy left their house that day, with JonBenet laying dead on the floor - they did not even rush to go get Burke! They left him at the White's and went to some other friends home! Leaving Burke vulnerable to the kidnappers and now, (with JonBenet murdered) - not just kidnappers, but KILLERS.

Leaving Burke also vulnerable to finding out what happened to his sister by the television or some other source other than his parents.
All day, by John & Patsy's actions and decisions - what they did and did not do when it came to Burke - demonstrated very clearly that they had NO fear for Burke's safety.

Which begs the obvious question: WHY NOT?

We all know why.
 
:clap:
One quibble, you are giving them too much credit, they still don’t have a full profile. A full CODIS profile has 13 markers. They have 9 ½, which they tweaked up to 10 markers to meet the minimum standard for upload to CODIS.

I understand that some people believe this, but during the Bode Tech media blitz, the woman who was the technician who processed the "touch" DNA said in an interview, when asked specifically about this, that they have a full 13 marker profile. She even said they didn't have to do the replicating process, as they found enough full strands without it.

I can't tell you which show she was on at the time, nor do I have the transcript. My vcr recorder got borrowed by family and I've not had it since, so I haven't taped anything in a few years. But I saw the show. It was one of the news/media shows that talked about the "DNA" break relentlessly for a few days, though, I believe: Fox, CNN, MSNBC, or Headline News/Nancy Grace/etc.

While I'm sure Super Dave could tell you...correctly...not to bet the farm on my fading memory--heh, I have forgotten a thing or two through the years, I don't have memories I imagined. At least, not yet. This full DNA profile issue is important enough to remember, as it's been an issue from the beginning of the case. So I paid attention: DNA profile, 13 markers. Check.
 
Which begs the obvious question: WHY NOT?

We all know why.

Because RDI or IDI and JR knows who it was (maybe not why,but who).
PR is dead,we don't know who the intruder is (if IDI)...

which makes it so simple IMO

the key/the person who can connect the dots is JR, no matter whether RDI or IDI

Because I don't buy what ST said,that PR did it all by herself and JR knew nothing

nor

IDI and it was a complete stranger


JR knows

:twocents:
 
I agree if an IDI then someone in that house knows who it was, and it seems logical that JR knows something.
 
No "intruder" is going to stage the crime scene so thoroughly - and then work harder and stage it further. "Staging within staging"
This is a huge clue, the fact that so much effort was put into staging the crime, that the person who did this KNEW it was going to be obvious who caused JonBenet's death unless they did. Terrible fear and panic. Not the work of a sexual predator who loves the thrill - doesn't fear it. And there should be this person's DNA and other forensic evidence all over the place of that crime. There is not. The microscopic, teensy-weensy bit they discovered "years later" could be explained away in many, many ways.
Silly to even think it equals having exonorated the family and must belong to an intruder. Smart people know this is rubbish.

Patsy was dressed in the SAME clothes she had worn the night before when the police showed up at 5:52am the next morning responding to the 911 call.

Patsy was up all night scrambling in panic, fear and determination to divert attention away from what REALLY happened in the house that sad Christmas night.

All of this is my humble opinion of course.

~Angel~
 
I want to talk a little about Patsy wearing her clothes from the night before.

thoughts.

If I have on something reasonably comfy on before i go to bed, I might put it back on in the morning and wear for coffee etc, until I shower. This outfit might be something like sweats or leggings and a t.

what was patsy wearing that morning?

wasn't it a suit?

she was kind of chubby, I wonder if she had panty hose on under her slacks to smooth her hips. Did she have a shell or blouse on under the jacket? was she wearing her bra?

point:

If Patsy say...just threw on those pants and her shell with no hose and no bra to go downstairs...putting on her jacket later to cover up when cops came...I can beleive this.

but If patsy was comlpetely dressed and had had not fallen asleep in her clothes... then I beleive she was up all night long.
 
I understand that some people believe this, but during the Bode Tech media blitz, the woman who was the technician who processed the "touch" DNA said in an interview, when asked specifically about this, that they have a full 13 marker profile. She even said they didn't have to do the replicating process, as they found enough full strands without it.

I can't tell you which show she was on at the time, nor do I have the transcript. My vcr recorder got borrowed by family and I've not had it since, so I haven't taped anything in a few years. But I saw the show. It was one of the news/media shows that talked about the "DNA" break relentlessly for a few days, though, I believe: Fox, CNN, MSNBC, or Headline News/Nancy Grace/etc.

While I'm sure Super Dave could tell you...correctly...not to bet the farm on my fading memory--heh, I have forgotten a thing or two through the years, I don't have memories I imagined. At least, not yet. This full DNA profile issue is important enough to remember, as it's been an issue from the beginning of the case. So I paid attention: DNA profile, 13 markers. Check.

KoldKase,

My understanding is that the police have as yet sealed dna evidence which has been processed. Since the focus has been on what 'exonorated' the R's, nobody has analysed the rest of the objects and artifacts for matching touch-dna found at the crime-scene. Possibly because away back then it was not feasible.

.
 
Welcome back, stranger.

Hey Dave.

Things have been kind of crazy for me lately. I moved about 5 miles from work instead of my normal driving 2.5 hours away everyday here in Atlanta. It is gonna be great for my family and me. Especially when I get the old house sold.
 
Forcefully? So "forcefully" that it took them 12 years to get a full profile?

I'm afraid the exaggeration of Mary Lacy, who had been working very hard to "clear" the Ramseys since the murder happened, doesn't make her irresponsible, unethical pronouncements about an "intruder" true. She's not a judge, nor a jury, and she alone cannot test the evidence in a court of law, especially without even presenting it at trial. She was only a prosecutor, and one who never managed to charge anyone with JonBenet's murder, at that.

Bode Technology can also not determine that the DNA sample they managed to lift in fact belonged to any intruder or killer. They're a lab, not a court, not a judge nor jury, and it's not their job nor their expertise to declare how the evidence came to rest on the clothing the lab tested.

That's the whole problem with this case: so many people take bits and pieces of what they know, add in what they want to believe about it, and come up with superfluous pronouncements leading to the conclusion they want. Intruder Smit came up with so many, based on speculation by his own accounts, that it's criminal how badly he damaged the case with his public relations propaganda.

No one knows how that DNA got on the clothing, nor when. Not until they source it will that question be answered. It very well could have been artifact, contamination from transference during the crime or processing the body, or many other ways. For Lacy to make use her office as a platform for the Ramseys was unprofessional and unconscionable, as the DA of Boulder whose job it was to prosecute the case, not shill for the Ramseys. Same with Hunter. When the DA is using his/her office to aid the prime suspects, then who is left to speak for the People or the victim? Nobody, that's who. And that's who has been speaking for JonBenet for 14 years now, thanks to the job her rich, influential parents did. JMO.


We are just gonna have to disagree. Touch DNA was in infancy stage when this crime occured so yeah, technology changes all the time and cases that are 40 and 50 years old are getting solved due to advancements. Much is misunderstood about Touch DNA. Lightly brushing someone doesn't really leave the evidence. Our outer layer of skin is mainly dead skin cells. It is only when brute force occurs that the dead skin cells fall and an inner skin cell layer is left then a good sample of DNA is left.

That is what happened here. I have seen several cases lately where real perpetrators have been caught, prior convictions have been overturned using this method on the ID channel. I suggest anyone to study on it. It is particularly useful when the perpetrator is unknown to the victim. As they think it is here.
 
I want to talk a little about Patsy wearing her clothes from the night before.

thoughts.

If I have on something reasonably comfy on before i go to bed, I might put it back on in the morning and wear for coffee etc, until I shower. This outfit might be something like sweats or leggings and a t.

what was patsy wearing that morning?

wasn't it a suit?

she was kind of chubby, I wonder if she had panty hose on under her slacks to smooth her hips. Did she have a shell or blouse on under the jacket? was she wearing her bra?

point:

If Patsy say...just threw on those pants and her shell with no hose and no bra to go downstairs...putting on her jacket later to cover up when cops came...I can beleive this.

but If patsy was comlpetely dressed and had had not fallen asleep in her clothes... then I beleive she was up all night long.


If she indeed had on the EXACT (I would only question the boots) same thing as the night before - it was black velvet pants, a red turtleneck short sleeve sweater and a black and red plaid jacket, along with black short boots that (may have) had beaver lining. This is hardly what I would call "comfortable".

Here's my problem, Mina:

1. She tells police that morning that she came down the stairs after putting on make-up and dressing in the same outfit as last night, because "she often wears clothes 2 days in a row".

2. She says in DOI that she put on make up then her underwear and came downstairs to find the note. After knowing the police (and everyone else in their social circle) was on the way, she realized she needed to get dressed, so she ran upstairs and grabbed the first things she saw, which was the same outfit she had on the night before.

Same result, but 2 different stories. Maybe she just didn't want to tell the cops she was traipsing around in her skivvies, who knows.

IF (and this is a HUGE if), the R's are telling the truth and IDI, this same woman stated she didn't know WHEN the last time JB had had a bath was. If she wasn't that concerned about keeping her child clean, she probably wasn't concerned about wearing her clothes 2 days in a row, either.
 
Hey Dave.

Things have been kind of crazy for me lately. I moved about 5 miles from work instead of my normal driving 2.5 hours away everyday here in Atlanta. It is gonna be great for my family and me. Especially when I get the old house sold.

The very best to you and yours.

Atlanta, eh? That's interesting.
 
I understand that some people believe this, but during the Bode Tech media blitz, the woman who was the technician who processed the "touch" DNA said in an interview, when asked specifically about this, that they have a full 13 marker profile. She even said they didn't have to do the replicating process, as they found enough full strands without it.

I can't tell you which show she was on at the time, nor do I have the transcript. My vcr recorder got borrowed by family and I've not had it since, so I haven't taped anything in a few years. But I saw the show. It was one of the news/media shows that talked about the "DNA" break relentlessly for a few days, though, I believe: Fox, CNN, MSNBC, or Headline News/Nancy Grace/etc.

While I'm sure Super Dave could tell you...correctly...not to bet the farm on my fading memory--heh, I have forgotten a thing or two through the years, I don't have memories I imagined. At least, not yet. This full DNA profile issue is important enough to remember, as it's been an issue from the beginning of the case. So I paid attention: DNA profile, 13 markers. Check.
Hi KK

I think I tracked down what you were thinking of with respect to the profile from touch DNA.
Back in 2008 on Topix you said:
Wait, I need to clarify what I just stated: I heard ONE PERSON say there is now a complete DNA profile from this "touch" DNA, but she is one of those beauties on CNN hosting the "news", and it popped out of her after the Bode demonstration piece and she's the only one who said that--at least, if the technician said it, I missed it while trying to take notes. Beauty may be right, but she didn't back it up with any source or context that I caught, so I need some credible sources or confirmation of that before I will use it as fact.
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TGA5IHRHBI04GVGES
Post#10

You were referring to “Anderson Cooper 360,” with Campbell Brown substituting as the host of the show.
During the telecast she throws to a video of an interview between CNN’s Brian Todd and Angela Williamson from Bode Technology.
At no time does Williamson refer to a “complete profile,” she says the following:

ANGELA WILLIAMSON, DNA ANALYST, BODE TECHNOLOGY: Touch samples is something you can't see. You can't look at an item and say there's touch evidence. It's not a blood stain. It's not a seminal stain. It's an area where you think that person may have been grabbed.
TODD: DNA analyst Angela Williamson handled the Ramsey case. She can't show us the long johns belonging to JonBenet Ramsey they tested here, but she takes us through the process with a pair of shorts.
(on camera) This is essentially where the analysis process began. Say I'm the perpetrator and I grabbed this piece of clothing, pulled down or pulled any other direction, and then left it.
Angela, you're going to tell me how you take the sample from this particular piece of clothing, a skin sample.
WILLIAMSON: So once we know that information, we would mark the area where we think that you have made contact. In this case, I'd mark quite a large area like this, and I would include the inside. Then you just get your scalpel blade and take a fine layer of shavings from the top surface.
TODD (voice-over): The shavings from my skin cells are placed in a small vial. For hard surfaces, swabs are used. Next step, extraction, using machines like this centrifuge to remove dyes, dirt, bacteria from the skin sell DNA sample.
WILLIAMSON: That one takes about two hours. We have one that takes almost two days.
TODD: Next, the samples are copied, amplified. Extraneous DNA is cleaned out in these hoods with UV rays. Then they can get a profile. in the Ramsey case...
WILLIAMSON: The DNA profile that we obtained is attributed to an unknown male. There is a XY chromosome.
TODD: One important part of this: touch evidence is used at the state and local levels on cases, but federal agents tell us there are certain types of touch evidence they don't use, because the technology's not been perfected yet. This is when there are only minute amounts of skin-cell DNA available and you could get a false positive.
Brian Todd, CNN, Lorton, Virginia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)

At this point, the host of the show decides to “promote” the profile to a “complete profile.”

BROWN: Touch DNA is an important new tool in solving crimes, but the science may actually be the easy part. DNA samples aren't taken from every criminal or every arrest. Why not?
Joining us for answers is CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin.
Jeff, we just saw in Brian Todd's piece that, you know, investigators now have a complete DNA profile of this person they believe to be the killer. But ultimately is it going to help them catch this person?
http://157.166.226.165/TRANSCRIPTS/0807/10/acd.01.html

On the “Nancy Grace” show, Williamson, again, refers to it as simply “the DNA profile."
Straight back out to Angela Williamson, the lead scientist who worked with Bode Technology on the Ramsey case. Was the DNA sperm?
WILLIAMSON: The DNA profile we obtained was not from spermatozoa.
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0807/09/ng.01.html

The one other time I heard something contrary was, from the lips of another reporter who had no idea what they were talking about, in that instance it was Chuck Murphy in an interview with Fox News / Greta Van Susteren.

The main reason I firmly don’t believe it was a full profile is that it would then supersede the earlier CODIS profile and I simply can’t imagine that not having been a major press release from ML.
Additionally, while full profiles have been obtained from both touch DNA and LCN contact DNA samples, partial profiles are the norm.
 
Much is misunderstood about Touch DNA. Lightly brushing someone doesn't really leave the evidence. Our outer layer of skin is mainly dead skin cells. It is only when brute force occurs that the dead skin cells fall and an inner skin cell layer is left then a good sample of DNA is left.
There are actually several factors involved, length of contact, pressure, type of surface/substrate, and the “shedder profile” of the person or persons involved in the transfer. A good shedder can transfer DNA quickly.
That is what happened here.
...
As they think it is here.
They???
 
There are actually several factors involved, length of contact, pressure, type of surface/substrate, and the “shedder profile” of the person or persons involved in the transfer. A good shedder can transfer DNA quickly.

They???

I know you don't believe it but yes on they. They is the "committee". And your response on DNA is a very good explanation of touch DNA.

I know we don't agree Cynic so lets leave it at that and wait and see. I am not to hopeful that this round of new interviews is because of some new clues but I like that they are going back to the beginning.
 
I cannot imagine a jury going for the "touch dna" evidence in this case unless they have the actual person in custody.

I still cannot imagine how John Mark Karr or any other suspect is exonnerated based on touch dna. so confusing.

are we saying that there are several sources of this dna and they all match?

in other words

on the panties
on the pajama's etc.
 
I cannot imagine a jury going for the "touch dna" evidence in this case unless they have the actual person in custody.

I still cannot imagine how John Mark Karr or any other suspect is exonnerated based on touch dna. so confusing.

are we saying that there are several sources of this dna and they all match?

in other words

on the panties
on the pajama's etc.

IMo The RST like to claim JMK was exonerated beacuse the DNA didn't match because that sounds far better than to say ML didn't do her homework & JMK couldn't have done it, he wasn't in the area at the time.
 
I cannot imagine a jury going for the "touch dna" evidence in this case unless they have the actual person in custody.

I still cannot imagine how John Mark Karr or any other suspect is exonnerated based on touch dna. so confusing.

are we saying that there are several sources of this dna and they all match?

in other words

on the panties
on the pajama's etc.

Yes, there are several different sources on different areas that have matching DNA. It is an unknown male. They have tested many people known to Ramseys, the Ramsey family, and even Law Enforcement personnel who could have innocently left traces. There is still no match and still not a match in Codis database from around the country.

You are right that the DNA will never come into play until a suspect is in custody. Until they find out whose it is this case is never going to go anywhere.
 
Is this the only touch dna found on jb? or is there touch dna from other sources, say patsy or john?

are you 100% sure on the matching dna? I haven't heard that or maybe i don't remember it..because I always thought there was the underwear dna which was attributed to a possible factory employee or handler of the item.

and that then there might be possible dna on the waistband of the long johns, but not
certain.

if they actually match this is a HUGE revelation..at least for me.
 
Is this the only touch dna found on jb? or is there touch dna from other sources, say patsy or john?

are you 100% sure on the matching dna? I haven't heard that or maybe i don't remember it..because I always thought there was the underwear dna which was attributed to a possible factory employee or handler of the item.

and that then there might be possible dna on the waistband of the long johns, but not
certain.

if they actually match this is a HUGE revelation..at least for me.
Have a look at these posts:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108432&page=3
Posts 64 and 65
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108432&page=7
Post 158
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999&page=15
Post 367
 

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