Brendan Dassey's Habeas Corpus Petition Granted

[Madeleine74]

Feel free to ignore if not relevant to you. This was posted for those who feel that only true facts are ever entered into courtroom evidence and who don't see the broader picture.

Who would "those" be?

Evidence is entered in a courtroom, testimony is given by witnesses and each side gets to ask questions about the evidence entered.

At the end the jury ultimately decides what is true, what is not true and if the state's burden has been met.

The court record contains info about all the exhibits, witnesses, evidence inventory, and an officially verified transcript.

 

[RANCH]

Feel free to ignore if not relevant to you. This was posted for those who feel that only true facts are ever entered into courtroom evidence and who don't see the broader picture.

Is that what you were trying to convey with your post? I guess I misunderstood.

It doesn't change my mind about this case. I'm still on the fence waiting for evidence that LE planted evidence.

 

[RANCH]

Who would "those" be?

Evidence is entered in a courtroom, testimony is given by witnesses and each side gets to ask questions about the evidence entered.

At the end the jury ultimately decides what is true, what is not true and if the state's burden has been met.

The court record contains info about all the exhibits, witnesses, evidence inventory, and an officially verified transcript.

Yes. That's why a jury is called a "trier of fact".

Trier of fact refers to a judge or jury in a court case. In a jury trial, the jury decides issues of fact while the judge makes legal rulings as to what evidence will be heard by the jury and what the law applicable to the case will be.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/trier-of-fact/

 

[Jaiddie]

I'm still waiting for someone to provide an innocent explanation as to why it was fine to bar the coroner from the alleged crime scene. I have a feeling I'll be waiting a looooong time for that.

And, then not call in ANY coroner to examine the crime scene...Not to mention then just delivering the remains in a cardboard box and leaving them on the medical examiner's desk to be waiting for her when she got back from a trip away. :no:

 

[IDK]

And, then not call in ANY coroner to examine the crime scene...Not to mention then just delivering the remains in a cardboard box and leaving them on the medical examiner's desk to be waiting for her when she got back from a trip away. :no:

That is terrible. Is this accepted practice in handling importance evidence? Evidence that will be relied on in court to determine someone's innocence or guilt?

Not to mention the disrespect to the deceased and their loves ones.

 

[Madeleine74]

In my state the coroner never goes to the crime scene. LE does and the CSI folks and then one or 2 representatives from the M.E. office will come to collect the remains and transport them back to the M.E. office for autopsy, which is usually done within 24 to 48 hrs. No medical examination is done at a scene--that all happens in the morgue's examining room.

There was a case locally in which the murder happened in a nearby city but the deceased was then dismembered and transported to TX and her parts were scattered in a pond. Divers in TX found and collected the remains (at least what pieces could be recovered), and transported those to the University of TX in a bag, which was contained inside a box where the initial autopsy took place.

Those same remains were later transported back to NC for a forensic anthropologist working for the state to do an examination of the bones to determine the type of cut marks and tools that would match up. Those bones (skeletal pieces) were transported in (you guessed it), a box, which was delivered by secure courier to the State University lab.

During the OJ murder case (this is now CA), you can see video of the remains of Ron & Nicole being collected (in white sheets, then put in body bags) then rolled on gurneys to the truck for transport. The M.E. never went to the scene itself. The remains go to the morgue and are examined there.

 

[missy1974]

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/05/12/11-10511.pdf

here is a case that is similar. It's an interesting read for sure. I haven't had time to find out where this case is at right now, if they retried him or appealed.

The judge also cited the Drizin/Leo article.

“Because of their cognitive deficits and limited social
skills, the mentally retarded . . . often lack the ability to
appreciate the seriousness of a situation.” Steven A. Drizin
& Richard A. Leo, The Problem of False Confessions in the
Post-DNA World, 82 N.C. L. Rev. 891, 919–20 (2004)

 

[Jaiddie]

In my state the coroner never goes to the crime scene. LE does and the CSI folks and then one or 2 representatives from the M.E. office will come to collect the remains and transport them back to the M.E. office for autopsy, which is usually done within 24 to 48 hrs. No medical examination is done at a scene--that all happens in the morgue's examining room.

There was a case locally in which the murder happened in a nearby city but the deceased was then dismembered and transported to TX and her parts were scattered in a pond. Divers in TX found and collected the remains (at least what pieces could be recovered), and transported those to the University of TX in a bag, which was contained inside a box where the initial autopsy took place.

Those same remains were later transported back to NC for a forensic anthropologist working for the state to do an examination of the bones to determine the type of cut marks and tools that would match up. Those bones (skeletal pieces) were transported in (you guessed it), a box, which was delivered by secure courier to the State University lab.

During the OJ murder case (this is now CA), you can see video of the remains of Ron & Nicole being collected (in white sheets, then put in body bags) then rolled on gurneys to the truck for transport. The M.E. never went to the scene itself. The remains go to the morgue and are examined there.

I realize that a medical examination of remains is not conducted at a crime scene. It is common sense that a thorough examination would transpire at an autopsy, of course. But you said yourself that representatives from the M.E.'s office would come to COLLECT and TRANSPORT the remains. I would think that that would be S.O.P. for any questionable death that was being investigated. Yet, in this case they had sheriff's deputy's just shoveling up the remains with shovels and a BACKHOE to be sifted through at later time...again by LEO and not medical personnel. Who knows how much more damage was done to those remains by inexperienced people collecting it in such a crude manner, rather than the perpetrator "busting them up" as LE theorized. It boggles my mind that some people seem to think that that can just be explained away by inexperience of LE. For me, personally, it was not only highly unprofessional and unethical, but is one of the most sinister and suspicious things about this case that made me start to realize that some very bogus behavior was happening in that investigation. :worms: And they now have the gall to be going on about the proper respect that should be paid to TH and her family!!! Where was LE respect back then? ullhair: All, JMO, of course

 

[Madeleine74]

I realize that a medical examination of remains is not conducted at a crime scene. It is common sense that a thorough examination would transpire at an autopsy, of course. But you said yourself that representatives from the M.E.'s office would come to COLLECT and TRANSPORT the remains.

Depends entirely on the jurisdiction and what their SOPs are. If it's an intact body and found within a certain distance of the coroner or M.E. and there are people available to transport those remains (like the fully intact bodies in OJ case in LA County) then an M.E. dept can pick them up. Alternatively, it could be a fire department or paramedic type vehicle to make transport.

If remains are skeletal or it's partial remains and bone fragments it might be a different procedure altogether.

Some skeletal remains of either a very small teen or a child were discovered in FL outside of Orlando. Some case followers on a missing person case out of SC thought these could be the remains of that young woman. There was a blanket with the skeletal remains. The skeletal remains were collected and shipped to some lab in FL for testing/DNA, etc. No ID could be made, and then the bones were boxed up once again and sent to another state (either TN or TX) to another lab to see if they could help. The blanket was sent off for DNA testing somewhere else. It wasn't the young woman from SC but no idea if they ever figured out who is was. The point: they boxed up the bones and set them off.

This is actually a common occurrence (for skeletal remains and bone fragments to be boxed up for shipping to someone with forensic anthropologic expertise) and it's not considered heinous or suspect or disrespectful to the victim. When Caylee Anthony's remains were found just a mile or 2 from her home, sifters made of some kind of screen material were used by the responders to sift the dirt through to find the small bones and bone fragments, which were then boxed up and sent to Dr.G's office. It wasn't the M.E.'s office who did the sifting at the scene--they were sent the bones in sealed box(es). Caylee's skull was boxed up and sent off to some other forensic scientist in some other lab in some other city or state who conducted his experiments. Different forensic experts then testified at trial to what they examined and what their tests determined.

 

[missy1974]

In the absence of following proper procedures (at least in Wisconsin), the LEAST they could have done was documented the scene before they altered it. They didn't even do that. Ertl made it clear that the scene was altered by the time he got there... in his email to Fassbender and again in his testimony. Comparing this case to cases where detailed photographs and forensics were done of the scene is pointless IMO.

I remember reading about the anthropologist that was on the scene at the Bosma trial (Canadian case). Here is an article I found doing a quick google search. https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...-hear-about-remains-found-in-incinerator.html

Testifying Thursday about the collection of human bone and ash from an incinerator found on Dellen Millard’s farm back in May 2013, the forensic anthropologist stressed her determination to give the family every tiny piece that she could.

In this case, she spent days at the farm after that discovery, even — the jury saw in photos — climbing inside the incinerator to carefully collect the fragile remains.


I'm sure there are more detailed articles, but these statements get the point across. IIRC, I think she even vacuumed every last speck of dust in the incinerator. They also found a burn area, so they put up a tent and processed that scene as well.

She was also the lead anthropologist in the Robert Pickton case that lasted months and months and months ... and months

 

[dexter75]

I'm still waiting for someone to provide an innocent explanation as to why it was fine to bar the coroner from the alleged crime scene. I have a feeling I'll be waiting a looooong time for that.

**crickets**

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[dexter75]

In my state the coroner never goes to the crime scene. LE does and the CSI folks and then one or 2 representatives from the M.E. office will come to collect the remains and transport them back to the M.E. office for autopsy, which is usually done within 24 to 48 hrs. No medical examination is done at a scene--that all happens in the morgue's examining room.

There was a case locally in which the murder happened in a nearby city but the deceased was then dismembered and transported to TX and her parts were scattered in a pond. Divers in TX found and collected the remains (at least what pieces could be recovered), and transported those to the University of TX in a bag, which was contained inside a box where the initial autopsy took place.

Those same remains were later transported back to NC for a forensic anthropologist working for the state to do an examination of the bones to determine the type of cut marks and tools that would match up. Those bones (skeletal pieces) were transported in (you guessed it), a box, which was delivered by secure courier to the State University lab.

During the OJ murder case (this is now CA), you can see video of the remains of Ron & Nicole being collected (in white sheets, then put in body bags) then rolled on gurneys to the truck for transport. The M.E. never went to the scene itself. The remains go to the morgue and are examined there.

In your state, or any of the other cases stated
Were ANY of the accused facing charges the SECOND time around?
With the FIRST conviction being bogus?

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[CoolJ]

Found this for Milwaukee:

http://county.milwaukee.gov/MedicalExaminer/ReportableDeaths.htm

 

[IDK]

Found this for Milwaukee:

http://county.milwaukee.gov/MedicalExaminer/ReportableDeaths.htm

Wow.

• "Under no circumstances should clothing or effects be handled or disturbed prior to the examination of the body; or the scene altered, including moving weapons, items near the body, or to perform diagnostic examination, except by specific authorization of the Medical Examiner's Office. The body must be maintained in its original state. Personal effects and clothing obtained in Emergency Room situations must be meticulously protected, saved, and released to Medical Examiner or law enforcement personnel.
• The body may not be released to anyone other than Medical Examiner personnel, unless so authorized by the Medical Examiner."

 

[dexter75]

Wow.

• "Under no circumstances should clothing or effects be handled or disturbed prior to the examination of the body; or the scene altered, including moving weapons, items near the body, or to perform diagnostic examination, except by specific authorization of the Medical Examiner's Office. The body must be maintained in its original state. Personal effects and clothing obtained in Emergency Room situations must be meticulously protected, saved, and released to Medical Examiner or law enforcement personnel.
• The body may not be released to anyone other than Medical Examiner personnel, unless so authorized by the Medical Examiner."

And there you have it folks..
Yet another procedure ( since we're all about procedures, processes & the like )
NOT followed.
One could even go as far as to speculate, many procedures and processes were purposely ignored,
to achieve the desired outcome.


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[Whickswi]

Laws don't matter there, they make their own protocols

 

[dexter75]

Laws don't matter there, they make their own protocols

I think you may be right😉👍

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[BigCityAccountant]

Who else should have been "investigated" that wasn't?

In any investigation, they follow the evidence. They don't just select random people. In this particular case it led straight to SA.

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Of course in any setup~~the evidence should point to someone else, right? {{{being sarcastic}}} Of course the evidence pointed to SA, the whole reason behind the setup in the first place. If I'm setting someone up~~I'm certainly not going to have the evidence point to someone other than the person I'm setting up, now would I?

IMHO, there was enough talk about other potential suspects, that they should have at least checked them out~~but no need right? The evidence says SA did it.

 

[dexter75]

Of course in any setup~~the evidence should point to someone else, right? {{{being sarcastic}}} Of course the evidence pointed to SA, the whole reason behind the setup in the first place. If I'm setting someone up~~I'm certainly not going to have the evidence point to someone other than the person I'm setting up, now would I?

IMHO, there was enough talk about other potential suspects, that they should have at least checked them out~~but no need right? The evidence says SA did it.

BCA,
Fabulous post, IMO🤘😉

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[BigCityAccountant]

From what I saw/read/found Calumet County was told to take the lead in the investigation, not that anyone in particular was barred from participating in the investigation. And Calumet County did take the lead. It was up to that county and their lead investigators to determine who could/could not participate.

During the trial, none of the evidence or testimony by the officers "who should never have been investigating" was thrown out. They were cross-examined and the jury heard the defense's position on them and the questions intended to impeach.

At the Court of Appeals, none of the officers' testimony or evidence was thrown out, nor did any judicial errors alleged cause a reversing of the conviction.

The WI Supreme Court denied hearing the appeal for the CoA decision.

Legally the evidence remains. If KZ can't prove any of that evidence was planted, it's probably over.

Sorry Guys~~just catching up over the last two days....

IIRC~~~The original press conference stated that Manitowoc LE was only going to be providing equipment and the such~~~BUT~~~when it was discovered they provided more than just equipment~~then they put the spin on it...oh, they were not barred from participating in the investigation....

So, while you are technically correct~~they were not "barred" from participating~~they told the public they were not going to be involved in the investigation and they were.

They broke the public's trust by being on that property~~in essence they lied to the public, initially.