CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

[PommyMommy]

Bringing forward a few of @cazador's posts from his trip to the Mojave. Additional posts in the media thread.

We walked the zone 3 times front to back. My wife called out my name from various positions and I can hear her from most positions. Most of the time you can see the telephone lines for a landmark position. Kelbaker rd has traffic and you can see roof tops driving the road and motor home are quite visible. You step up on a rock and Everthing is visable. The paved parking area is visable ..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

Call LE and they give me exact location of 5th wheel and where RT was standing. Fact.
I talk with family members both Here and other places. They give family history which is Fact.
I contact Kennel.. Get a Fact.
I go to the Location.. Find no evidence but I get Fact in my mind of what is possible.
I go the the Chevron.. LE has been there. Fact.
I talk with park Rangers.. They tell me how many independent people have searched.
It is not really fact but I do see evidence all over the desert of searchers. " They leave tags" Fact
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

We parked where RT parked the 5th wheel

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

As we approach the rocks where RT said he lost sight of BT.

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

I went back out Sunday.. My wife dropped me off and she and Jet went touring the park.. Alone I put the phone down and worked the area for 6 hours very fast. I left knowing in my heart BT is not here at this location.. From so many places you can see clearly the Asphalt parking area and the telephone poles.. There is no way in the world she got lost in my opinion..
With that I am considering the options.. I am sure LE is also..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

You can hear the traffic and tall vehicles like motorhomes are visible from almost all positions .. You can see the telephone poles ..
I did not encounter one other person walking around out there besides myself and my wife both Saturday and Sunday and there was a lot of traffic on Kelbaker rd both days.
There were many people who stopped at the asphalt pullout area on both days .. You can see that spot from most areas.
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

When I say a lot of traffic what I mean by that is one car every 5 or 10 minutes ..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

The spot where RT said he lost sight of BT

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

 

[squareandrabbet]

Bringing forward a few of @cazador's posts from his trip to the Mojave. Additional posts in the media thread.

We walked the zone 3 times front to back. My wife called out my name from various positions and I can hear her from most positions. Most of the time you can see the telephone lines for a landmark position. Kelbaker rd has traffic and you can see roof tops driving the road and motor home are quite visible. You step up on a rock and Everthing is visable. The paved parking area is visable ..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

Call LE and they give me exact location of 5th wheel and where RT was standing. Fact.
I talk with family members both Here and other places. They give family history which is Fact.
I contact Kennel.. Get a Fact.
I go to the Location.. Find no evidence but I get Fact in my mind of what is possible.
I go the the Chevron.. LE has been there. Fact.
I talk with park Rangers.. They tell me how many independent people have searched.
It is not really fact but I do see evidence all over the desert of searchers. " They leave tags" Fact
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

We parked where RT parked the 5th wheel

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

As we approach the rocks where RT said he lost sight of BT.

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

I went back out Sunday.. My wife dropped me off and she and Jet went touring the park.. Alone I put the phone down and worked the area for 6 hours very fast. I left knowing in my heart BT is not here at this location.. From so many places you can see clearly the Asphalt parking area and the telephone poles.. There is no way in the world she got lost in my opinion..
With that I am considering the options.. I am sure LE is also..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

You can hear the traffic and tall vehicles like motorhomes are visible from almost all positions .. You can see the telephone poles ..
I did not encounter one other person walking around out there besides myself and my wife both Saturday and Sunday and there was a lot of traffic on Kelbaker rd both days.
There were many people who stopped at the asphalt pullout area on both days .. You can see that spot from most areas.
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

When I say a lot of traffic what I mean by that is one car every 5 or 10 minutes ..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

The spot where RT said he lost sight of BT

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

so: it's accepted fact from the mouth of LE, that (1), many people have been out on their own searching for Barb jointly or severally; (2), exactly where RT and the RV were on the time-space continuum?

Were we ever able to get a definitive answer on whether or not a picture of her was taken in the desert on that day - not a representative picture of some point in the time/space continuum where she went to the desert in the past; or a day where she wore a "similar" outfit; but the exact outfit and background the day-of - and has this photograph been shared with LE, and thus, us via media?

Because if not, then I definitely think Barb (was) disappeared somewhere between the kennel and Kelbaker Road.

 

[PommyMommy]

so: it's accepted fact from the mouth of LE, that (1), many people have been out on their own searching for Barb jointly or severally; (2), exactly where RT and the RV were on the time-space continuum?

Were we ever able to get a definitive answer on whether or not a picture of her was taken in the desert on that day - not a representative picture of some point in the time/space continuum where she went to the desert in the past; or a day where she wore a "similar" outfit; but the exact outfit and background the day-of - and has this photograph been shared with LE, and thus, us via media?

Because if not, then I definitely think Barb (was) disappeared somewhere between the kennel and Kelbaker Road.

I can only speak for myself as to whether it is accepted as fact. Yes, I believe there have been many people out there searching for Barbara as evidenced by the tags Cazador told us about. Whether they've searched exactly where RT was and where the RV was parked is hard to say since we don't know if any of those searchers confirmed the locations with LE.

@dbdb11 shared that LE believes that BT was there in the desert that day based on photographic evidence provided by RT. The photograph(s) have not been shared by the news media. MOO

 

[squareandrabbet]

I can only speak for myself as to whether it is accepted as fact. Yes, I believe there have been many people out there searching for Barbara as evidenced by the tags Cazador told us about. Whether they've searched exactly where RT was and where the RV was parked is hard to say since we don't know if any of those searchers confirmed the locations with LE.[/quote

Known by the tags on the trail, plus chitchat with the park rangers, I would add.

@dbdb11 shared that LE believes that BT was there in the desert that day based on photographic evidence provided by RT. The photograph(s) have not been shared by the news media. MOO

Thank you for reminding me of the details of the photo. If @cazador says one can echolocate one's self easily using telephone poles, which I should think would be visible from anywhere; I can think of legitimately zero reason why Barb would not be findable there, outside of a mine shaft or similar.

 

[deugirtni]

I can only speak for myself as to whether it is accepted as fact. Yes, I believe there have been many people out there searching for Barbara as evidenced by the tags Cazador told us about. Whether they've searched exactly where RT was and where the RV was parked is hard to say since we don't know if any of those searchers confirmed the locations with LE.

@dbdb11 shared that LE believes that BT was there in the desert that day based on photographic evidence provided by RT. The photograph(s) have not been shared by the news media. MOO

I believe dbdb11 said that police told him there were photos, but they were not shown to him. I'm still disturbed by this, even though much discussion was held as to 'privacy rights' of the photos. I just can't think of one reason why NOT to share the last photos of her on that very day, showing where she was, that she was there, what she was exactly wearing, etc. So often we see photos taken of missing people just before their disappearances. Why not in this case?

 

[LietKynes]

I can only speak for myself as to whether it is accepted as fact. Yes, I believe there have been many people out there searching for Barbara as evidenced by the tags Cazador told us about. Whether they've searched exactly where RT was and where the RV was parked is hard to say since we don't know if any of those searchers confirmed the locations with LE.

@dbdb11 shared that LE believes that BT was there in the desert that day based on photographic evidence provided by RT. The photograph(s) have not been shared by the news media. MOO

bbm
Thanks.
Eta; Have to check back.

Not certain if the VI saw the photos or RT's daughter.
Thought that was stated in an early thread.
If the VI did not see the photos then only LE have seen them and they should share them with the public.
So much time has passed, it can't do any harm.

After all of this time, why hasn't LE shared these with the public ?
There is something they don't want us to see at this time.
Hoping this will change.
Barb needs to be found.

 

[PommyMommy]

bbm
Thanks.
I knew the VI was shown photos but I thought that RT had shown the photos to his daughter and she showed them to LE.
After all of this time, why hasn't LE shared these with the public ?
There is something they don't want us to see at this time.
Hoping this will change.
Barb needs to be found.

I'm not aware that @dbdb11 was shown the photos or that RT had shown them to his daughter who shared them with LE. Where did that come from?

What I know for sure, according to dbdb11, is that LE believed that BT was in the desert that day based on photos provided by RT. MOO

LE said they have photos of Barb on the 12th, and they do believe Barb was there. LE have not shared much else with me.

As far as I know LE have NOT released any photos from that day. I don't know why they haven't, but at this point, like you @Micheline, i dont think it matters.

LE have the photos, as well as bodycam footage on the day. They have roberts initial statements and they scoured the surrounding area for ten days.

whether she was wearing bikini or underwear.... irrelevant to me. hat color also of little consequence to me. There may be very talented sleuths here who can make a lot out of those details.

i didnt even think to ask the kennel what she was wearing. i am looking for motive, including backstory. because, imo, Barbara could not have gotten lost where robbie claims they were, and she could not have been abducted without robert knowing, based on his own accounts.

my own opinion.

somebody has been lying to me about what happened on july 12th.

 

[LietKynes]

SBM

I thought RT cooperated with LE. Maybe they asked to search the RV and truck with his consent and he allowed it.

JMO

Yes, you may be right.

We don't know that yet.
LE have not said they've ruled anyone out, so hopefully there'll be an update soon.

The VI was told by RT that LE had been shown photos --taken at some time by RT.
So the VI believes she was at that location of the rock formation.

Maybe not on exactly the same day -- but in the grand scheme of things maybe the fact she was there at some time is irrelevant to the investigation ; and is possible that's what her husband is thinking ; but we don't yet know what LE have as far as the evidence they're looking for.

Since the husband is a victim we also don't know if he's been searching in the desert or maybe in Las Vegas where he insisted she might have been taken ?
He may be out there looking every day.

LE changed their stance early on in the investigation to say that they had no evidence of an abduction and they've been remarkably silent since then.
It's become a waiting game.

It'd help to clear parts of this up if he'd take the very kind offer by WS to come on the podcast and answer questions.
So many want to help but are stymied by the lack of information.
Help us to help you, RT.
Some of us have even taken drones to search Kelbaker Rd., and it goes to show the regard we have for Barbara.
Most would jump at the chance to have their voice heard for their missing one.

 

[LietKynes]

I'm not aware that @dbdb11 was shown the photos or that RT had shown them to his daughter who shared them with LE. Where did that come from?

What I know for sure, according to dbdb11, is that LE believed that BT was in the desert that day based on photos provided by RT. MOO

I thought early on that the VI had viewed them and that RT's daughter had seen them.
Maybe not.
I will go back and check.
Thanks for pointing that out.
I'll edit as well.

 

[LietKynes]

Bringing forward a few of @cazador's posts from his trip to the Mojave. Additional posts in the media thread.

We walked the zone 3 times front to back. My wife called out my name from various positions and I can hear her from most positions. Most of the time you can see the telephone lines for a landmark position. Kelbaker rd has traffic and you can see roof tops driving the road and motor home are quite visible. You step up on a rock and Everthing is visable. The paved parking area is visable ..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

Call LE and they give me exact location of 5th wheel and where RT was standing. Fact.
I talk with family members both Here and other places. They give family history which is Fact.
I contact Kennel.. Get a Fact.
I go to the Location.. Find no evidence but I get Fact in my mind of what is possible.
I go the the Chevron.. LE has been there. Fact.
I talk with park Rangers.. They tell me how many independent people have searched.
It is not really fact but I do see evidence all over the desert of searchers. " They leave tags" Fact
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

We parked where RT parked the 5th wheel

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

As we approach the rocks where RT said he lost sight of BT.

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

I went back out Sunday.. My wife dropped me off and she and Jet went touring the park.. Alone I put the phone down and worked the area for 6 hours very fast. I left knowing in my heart BT is not here at this location.. From so many places you can see clearly the Asphalt parking area and the telephone poles.. There is no way in the world she got lost in my opinion..
With that I am considering the options.. I am sure LE is also..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

You can hear the traffic and tall vehicles like motorhomes are visible from almost all positions .. You can see the telephone poles ..
I did not encounter one other person walking around out there besides myself and my wife both Saturday and Sunday and there was a lot of traffic on Kelbaker rd both days.
There were many people who stopped at the asphalt pullout area on both days .. You can see that spot from most areas.
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

When I say a lot of traffic what I mean by that is one car every 5 or 10 minutes ..
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

The spot where RT said he lost sight of BT

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

Thank you Pommymommy for the photos and video.
It's flatter than I'd imagined.
Nearly impossible to "get lost".
And a clear view of the surrounding area.
As in -- not remote and no marked paths.

But if there's traffic-- what did RT see ?
A vehicle grabbing her and driving away ?
It'd help if he could join the podcast and explain what the kidnapper might have looked like ( and type of vehicle ) who might have abducted Barbara.

 

[LietKynes]

From the photos it looks like someone could see a person who's 5'9" walking all the way back to the RV.
As in not their entire body, but the top of their head ?
So if the rocks are even slightly elevated-- you can watch someone walking until they get to the RV.

 

[PommyMommy]

From the photos it looks like someone could see a person who's 5'9" walking all the way back to the RV.
As in not their entire body, but the top of their head ?
So if the rocks are even slightly elevated-- you can watch someone walking until they get to the RV.

As well as hear them. I think we heard that from both sroad and cazador if I'm not mistaken. MOO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I believe dbdb11 said that police told him there were photos, but they were not shown to him. I'm still disturbed by this, even though much discussion was held as to 'privacy rights' of the photos. I just can't think of one reason why NOT to share the last photos of her on that very day, showing where she was, that she was there, what she was exactly wearing, etc. So often we see photos taken of missing people just before their disappearances. Why not in this case?

ITA, this has always been a niggling concern for me as well -- why wouldn't LE have stated with the "missing" photos of Barbara that they published, that one or the other were the "last known photo of Barbara Thomas taken on the day she went missing" if they were "sure" that it was?

Maybe there is never a way for them to be sure, and it's a "down the road" forensic issue that they needed to look into.

There may be legal reasons as well, for LE to not state a level of certainty about the time/date status of the photo, when their investigation was underway and is ongoing (6+ months ongoing now)...

Having forensic "proof" of something at the outset of a missing person search and investigation and stating such to the public is possibly too difficult to nail down, IMO.

It was probably a "best we have right now to get the word (image) out" that matched what RT said she was wearing (the red/white hat, black top) and where she was (standing in the desert in front of a rock) well enough for people to recognize her.

Also, the VI said here that LE said they thought the photo was taken of her that day in that location where they were walking when she went missing (or something to that effect, paraphrasing what I read on earlier threads), so they must have felt it was a valid photo to use for "missing person" purposes, even if they couldn't confirm its validity for the public at the time, or now, 6+ months later.

Don't know whether there is research on this topic, whether LE has stated a higher level of certainty in other cases about "last seen" photos, to determine whether it's unusual or standard or somewhere in between. It probably depends on the circumstances of the case, which are unique, of course.

MOO, food for thought in this conundrum of a case. Bumping for Barbara!!!!! Never giving up hope that there will be a break soon and she will be found <3

 

[rosesfromangels]

Similar to the Paul Miller case, it is MOO that a drone crew like "Wings of Mercy" and the Loc8 drones need to be brought in. They use geospatial terrain maps and do grid searches in an inth of the time it takes humans, with amazing precision and results. In this type of terrain, I'd say it's essential.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[155etta]

I believe dbdb11 said that police told him there were photos, but they were not shown to him. I'm still disturbed by this, even though much discussion was held as to 'privacy rights' of the photos. I just can't think of one reason why NOT to share the last photos of her on that very day, showing where she was, that she was there, what she was exactly wearing, etc. So often we see photos taken of missing people just before their disappearances. Why not in this case?

Well, the official description of what she was last seen wearing is underwear. So maybe that's why. MOO.

 

[LietKynes]

Well, the official description of what she was last seen wearing is underwear. So maybe that's why. MOO.

Sensitive areas could be blacked out.
Just saying.
It'd be interesting to see what the terrain behind her looked like.
I am not at all convinced that she is near Kelbaker.
So, where ?

 

[kkdj]

Sensitive areas could be blacked out.
Just saying.
It'd be interesting to see what the terrain behind her looked like.
I am not at all convinced that she is near Kelbaker.
So, where ?

I've been out there. Many many times. You can't believe how vast that desert is. But, imo, a neighbor seeing them leave, the kennel seeing her drop off her dog that morning...them being in a a dually and a 5th wheel...there's not that many options really.

 

[deugirtni]

Well, the official description of what she was last seen wearing is underwear. So maybe that's why. MOO.

It's not like dbdb11, BT's nephew, is a child. I'm not even saying LE had/has to share these last known photos with the public to scrutinize, but why at least not to her own family who was showing very much interest and concern in knowing what happened? And like someone else mentioned, why not also share with the public by blacking out whatever may be 'private' in the photos, if anything - the 'real' photo(s) may have the effect of sparking a memory in someone who was in the area that day. Maybe too late for that NOW though? And like someone/people have said before, speaking fashion-wise, there really isn't a lot of difference between a 'bikini' and 'underwear', so what's the big difference? The secrecy about this only fuels the suspicions, imho.

 

[deugirtni]

I've been out there. Many many times. You can't believe how vast that desert is. But, imo, a neighbor seeing them leave, the kennel seeing her drop off her dog that morning...them being in a a dually and a 5th wheel...there's not that many options really.

In 'seemingly' so many cases of people lost in that vast desert, the missing people weren't necessarily right there with their mate, and right there within sight of their refuge when the person disappeared. Somehow or other, it seems in many cases (that I have read about at least), that the missing person becomes apart from their travel mate.. ie in the case of Paul Miller whose body was found recently - although he had been out previously with his spouse, and his spouse may have thought she had a good idea of where he *would* have gone, she wasn't with him at that particular time. She wasn't there to say that something may have caught his interest to go off the beaten path or to go a different direction/way.

Sometimes people get split up because one gets into trouble and the other has to leave to try to find assistance, or whatever. Or people just split up to go and investigate items of interest to themselves. This case, to me, seems different in that it was only a stop-off, not even a 'hike', they were both very experienced and knew the hazards and risks, and they were together, right up until the spouse was packing up his photog gear and the two were heading back to their RV. That visualization/description just doesn't give the feeling, imho, that she could have gone off somewhere else, or that she landed in physical/mental trouble that not only prevented her from safely returning to the RV, but would also make her invisible/difficult to find (considering the time, distance, and features of the particular area that we have been told of by members who have gone to look for themselves). Taking everything into account about the description of the day's events and the specific area (with the easy view and the sound considerations), this just seems different to me. imo.

 

[rosesfromangels]

In 'seemingly' so many cases of people lost in that vast desert, the missing people weren't necessarily right there with their mate, and right there within sight of their refuge when the person disappeared. Somehow or other, it seems in many cases (that I have read about at least), that the missing person becomes apart from their travel mate.. ie in the case of Paul Miller whose body was found recently - although he had been out previously with his spouse, and his spouse may have thought she had a good idea of where he *would* have gone, she wasn't with him at that particular time. She wasn't there to say that something may have caught his interest to go off the beaten path or to go a different direction/way.

Sometimes people get split up because one gets into trouble and the other has to leave to try to find assistance, or whatever. Or people just split up to go and investigate items of interest to themselves. This case, to me, seems different in that it was only a stop-off, not even a 'hike', they were both very experienced and knew the hazards and risks, and they were together, right up until the spouse was packing up his photog gear and the two were heading back to their RV. That visualization/description just doesn't give the feeling, imho, that she could have gone off somewhere else, or that she landed in physical/mental trouble that not only prevented her from safely returning to the RV, but would also make her invisible/difficult to find (considering the time, distance, and features of the particular area that we have been told of by members who have gone to look for themselves). Taking everything into account about the description of the day's events and the specific area (with the easy view and the sound considerations), this just seems different to me. imo.

Thank you for this well thought out, and logical post.
What you describe aligns with RT's speculation that someone abducted his wife.

However, while anything is possible and the outcomes of our threads never cease to amaze and surprise me, I don't see this possibility as highly likely.
While a woman clad in a bikini would catch interest, grabbing a 5'9" woman wouldn't be that easy, unless at gunpoint....which is a possibility. A gunpoint abduction is the only scenario that would make sense in this theory. OR, she might have been angry at RT, and decided to hitch a ride back home, and something went awry. My friend who knows Bullhead well describes it as being somewhat "outlaw". People carrying guns would not be unheard of.

The above stated, I still believe Barb is like Paul Miller....out there, yet to be found.

Amateur opinion and speculation