GUILTY CA - Boat fire near Santa Cruz Island; 34 missing, Sept 2019 *captain charged*

[SandyQLS]

KTLA 9/8/19 article says SW's executed today are routine activity for investigation

Search Warrants Served at Santa Barbara Company That Owned Dive Boat That Burned

 

[happyday]

Gosh I hope they’re able to find the last person soon. How agonizing for the families whose loved ones haven’t yet been identified w/DNA. Do we know how many are still unidentified?

 

[Kubirai]

BBM and snipped from the article -

The fire is believed to have killed 34 people, but the remains of one of the crew members has yet to be recovered. The other five crew members who were above deck survived the fire by jumping overboard and say they tried to save the victims.

Santa Barbara boat fire: Smoke inhalation likely killed victims, autopsies not planned

The victims whose identities were released include:
...
Alexandra Kurtz, 26, of Santa Barbara
...

She is the deceased crew member, Allie Kurtz, originally from Cincinnati. So the missing victim is NOT a crew member.

 

[Kubirai]

Why did the first awakening crew member hear a thump and think someone fell? (Okay, maybe I hear a zebra, but a thump sounds like someone leaving the ship and I hope this wasn't sabotage or a staged disappearance.)

I will have to verify this information, but have a theory IF it is true.
The thud was probably a sudden explosion of accumulated hydrogen from the ship's main lead-acid batteries.

In that scenario, the electrical system may have overloaded or short circuited, and there would have been no alarm before the explosion and fire.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Authorities served search warrants Sunday at the Southern California company that owned the scuba diving boat that caught fire and killed 34 people last week.

Agents with the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and other agencies searched Truth Aquatics' offices in Santa Barbara and the company's two remaining boats, Santa Barbara County sheriff's Lt. Erik Raney said.

The warrants served shortly after 9 a.m. are part of the ongoing investigation into the tragedy to determine whether any crimes were committed, he said. The office was ringed in red "crime scene" tape as more than a dozen agents took photos and carried out boxes.

For a judge to approve warrants, law enforcement must spell out the probability a crime was committed. Raney declined to comment on what evidence was disclosed to obtain the warrants, saying only that they are "a pretty standard" part of the investigation to determine whether crimes occurred.
Search warrants served in California boat fire investigation

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Authorities are focused on determining the cause of the fire and are looking at many things, including how batteries and electronics were stored and charged. They will also look into how the crew was trained and what crewmembers were doing at the time of the fire. The boat's design will also come under scrutiny, particularly whether a bunkroom escape hatch was adequate.
Search warrants served in probe of California boat fire that killed 34 people

 

[imstilla.grandma]

While there is no exact determination of the cause of the blaze, early suspicion has focused on lithium-ion batteries and chargers used to re-power cell phones and underwater cameras. Surviving crew members and people familiar with the vessel have said the chargers were located in the area where the fire is believed to have started.

No chance to get out
The boat’s designer, Roy Hauser, told the Los Angeles Times that his analysis of the footage of the burned-out boat leads him to believe the fire started in one of the bunk rooms, possibly from a cell phone battery or charging device.

“This had to have been, in my estimation, one of those lithium battery chargers,” Hauser told The Times. “This happened in the belly of the boat. Those people did not have a chance to get out: From stem to stern, that boat was burning.”

A crewman told the NTSB that he believes the fire started in the galley, just above the sleeping passengers, where there are numerous charging stations used to recharge battery-powered devices. The NTSB said it will thoroughly investigate the cause of the fire, and nothing has been ruled out as a cause at this point.

Other incidents
Lithium-ion batteries have long been a source of potential fire hazards, causing special concern in the transportation industry. Between March 1991 and February 2019, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) counted 241 incidents involving overheated lithium-ion batteries in airports or onboard aircraft.

Two years ago, a JetBlue aircraft had to make an emergency landing in Michigan after the battery in a laptop overheated and caught fire. In 2016, when the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 smartphone triggered a number of similar explosions and fires, resulting in its recall, the FAA banned the phone from all commercial flights, fearing some consumers would continue using their phones despite the danger.
Lithium batteries a suspect in tragic drive boat fire

 

[Lilibet]

<rsbm> The consensus among them is that many of the divers on these trips are regular people who enjoy diving as a hobby or recreational activity and that not all of them would be classified as athletes or super physically fit.
<rsbm for focus>
Because of this, we cannot assume that everyone on the trip would have easily been able to exit through the escape hatch. And we cannot assume that all of the paid passengers on the Conception were risk-takers - I don't think we can categorize all recreational divers as such. Many of the individuals on this dive may have simply enjoyed diving and came on that trip to be with a marine biologist who was going to introduce them to unusual marine life.

I don’t believe I said that the passengers were “risk-takers” in the sense that people who engage in “extreme sports” are. That was a previous poster whose post was misinterpreted and I have responded to the misinterpretations. In the process of responding, apparently my words have either been unclear or not read correctly. I apologize for any confusion. I think anyone who reads my posts in their entirety will see where I’m coming from.

Whatever kind of diving they were engaged in involves risk that is usually manageable under normal circumstances. Even just being on a boat involves risk! Each person would have decided for themselves what kind of normal risk they were comfortable with. If someone didn’t feel they would be able to exit through that hatch in a normal emergency (not catastrophic) I assume they could accept that level of risk. Normally the stairs would be sufficient.

So to repeat one last time...all JMO:
This was an unpredictable catastrophe, well beyond the physical ability of anyone to escape. No regulations reconfiguring the escape hatches would have made much difference in this situation. There is no such thing as perfect safety. We all are responsible for being aware of whatever risks we are taking (whether diving, boating or crossing the street) and deciding what is acceptable to us personally. I respectfully assume the passengers made that assessment and acted accordingly and responsibly. I also assume that about the owner, the crew and Kristy Findland. But they could not have predicted this catastrophe, so it was outside the realm of normal risk assessment. IMO, JMO, MOO

If the investigation yields a different opinion, I’m open to revising mine. I hope this is clear.

 

[Penelope]

I don’t believe I said that the passengers were “risk-takers” in the sense that people who engage in “extreme sports” are. That was a previous poster whose post was misinterpreted and I have responded to the misinterpretations. In the process of responding, apparently my words have either been unclear or not read correctly. I apologize for any confusion. I think anyone who reads my posts in their entirety will see where I’m coming from.

Whatever kind of diving they were engaged in involves risk that is usually manageable under normal circumstances. Even just being on a boat involves risk! Each person would have decided for themselves what kind of normal risk they were comfortable with. If someone didn’t feel they would be able to exit through that hatch in a normal emergency (not catastrophic) I assume they could accept that level of risk. Normally the stairs would be sufficient.

So to repeat one last time...all JMO:
This was an unpredictable catastrophe, well beyond the physical ability of anyone to escape. No regulations reconfiguring the escape hatches would have made much difference in this situation. There is no such thing as perfect safety. We all are responsible for being aware of whatever risks we are taking (whether diving, boating or crossing the street) and deciding what is acceptable to us personally. I respectfully assume the passengers made that assessment and acted accordingly and responsibly. I also assume that about the owner, the crew and Kristy Findland. But they could not have predicted this catastrophe, so it was outside the realm of normal risk assessment. IMO, JMO, MOO

If the investigation yields a different opinion, I’m open to revising mine. I hope this is clear.

I understand your point and I agree, somewhat.

However, most people operate under the assumption that if they go on a trip such as this excursion, some of these questionable safety issues and boat designs would be thought out a bit better. State and national government and safety entities are supposed to be regulating the industry. You would think that instead of rubber-stamping the Truth Aquatics fleet and other passenger vessels over the years these regulations have been in force, the authorities would have revisited some of these regulations to take into account modern-day findings from similar tragedies, as well as risks with new technology such as Lithium batteries.

As I stated before - imagine the NTSB team's surprise when they saw that escape hatch on the similarly-designed vessel and where it exited to. And the fact that no one thought to figure out a safer way with recharging all the electronic devices. I don't think this tragedy was totally unpredictable - maybe unpredictable in its scope (all passengers in the cabin below died) but not unpredictable. It was only a matter of time that a similar tragedy would happen - but I am sure it was thought that at least most people would have been able to get out of it alive.

No wonder that Maritime Law to limit exposure still exists - the Insurance companies need it because the vessels they are insuring are dinosaurs and are not really safe as per today's standards. Yes, each person who paid to be on the Conception took a risk - and had to decide whether or not the risk was worth it. But did each person realize that the smoke alarms were not connected to each other, or that there was no camera security system where the night watchman could monitor each level/room remotely? Did they realize that, if you took a stopwatch to it in a simulated drill, that few people would be able to get out through the escape hatch if the stairs were blocked? It's not just the owners of Truth Aquatics that may have some culpability - it is the boating industry, insurance industry, federal regulators, etc. that have some blood on their hands. Vessels like the Conception should be treated no differently than aircraft. IMHO.

 

[Sleuth15]

Some thoughts and observations I have after reading the Press Enterprise article mentioned in post 496 and viewing the NTSB walk-thru of the Vision boat and escape hatch:
1. The PE article showed the bunk level stair case as curved, whereas the NTSB video show it straight, with a landing I think. Curved would be harder to navigate.
2. The PE article describes the wheel house access to the main deck as a ladder where the photo shows a steep ship's steps. A ladder would probably be harder and longer time to descend
3. There is a door to the right of the wheel house steps but it looks like it is to a restroom. I wonder if the restroom had a door to the galley also
4.There are windows all down the galley-I wonder if there are operable
5.there appears to be a rubber dinghy on top of the wheel house. I wonder if the crew used this or the boat at the stern.
6. there appear to be a fire extinguisher at the wheel house next to the dinghy
7. The crew member may have hurt/broken his leg by jumping from the wheel house to the bow portion of the main deck, not the stern dive prep area
8. There is a utube video by a previous caption/mate and he stated the galley double doors where never locked, except at port and were always "Open." One of the crew said the galley doors were on fire when he came down the steps/ladder.
9. Maybe the galley double doors were closed due to cold weather or fog. That would have prevented smoke from escaping the galley
10. One photo shows what appears to be an exhaust vent in the ceiling near a bunk. This fan could have pulled smoke down to the bunk level.
11. To keep the bunk area "fresh" with clean air probably would require 500 cubic feet of air a minute or so. The exhaust could have pulled smoke down from the galley. A residential toilet fan is about 100 CFM
12. if the galley double doors where closed, then the only place for the fire heat and smoke to go was down to the bunk area
13. If I was in the upper bunk, I may have opened (if allowed) the emergency hatch just to get fresh air
14. utube shows lithium from a battery catching fire violently when placed in salt water. Maybe a battery had a casing leak and got wet.
15. The galley probably has a kitchen exhaust fan, but that probably was off. If on, it would have vented smoke.
16. It is hard to imagine how apparently none of the 34 did not wake up from the smoke and escape, or die by burns before being overcome by smoke. Just a horrible thought.
17. As horrible and unbelievable as it sounds and to even consider, Occam's Razor could lead one to consider sabotage to explain the totality loss of life so quickly

This is all so tragic and very sad.

 

[Penelope]

Some thoughts and observations I have after reading the Press Enterprise article mentioned in post 496 and viewing the NTSB walk-thru of the Vision boat and escape hatch:
1. The PE article showed the bunk level stair case as curved, whereas the NTSB video show it straight, with a landing I think. Curved would be harder to navigate.
2. The PE article describes the wheel house access to the main deck as a ladder where the photo shows a steep ship's steps. A ladder would probably be harder and longer time to descend
3. There is a door to the right of the wheel house steps but it looks like it is to a restroom. I wonder if the restroom had a door to the galley also
4.There are windows all down the galley-I wonder if there are operable
5.there appears to be a rubber dinghy on top of the wheel house. I wonder if the crew used this or the boat at the stern.
6. there appear to be a fire extinguisher at the wheel house next to the dinghy
7. The crew member may have hurt/broken his leg by jumping from the wheel house to the bow portion of the main deck, not the stern dive prep area
8. There is a utube video by a previous caption/mate and he stated the galley double doors where never locked, except at port and were always "Open." One of the crew said the galley doors were on fire when he came down the steps/ladder.
9. Maybe the galley double doors were closed due to cold weather or fog. That would have prevented smoke from escaping the galley
10. One photo shows what appears to be an exhaust vent in the ceiling near a bunk. This fan could have pulled smoke down to the bunk level.
11. To keep the bunk area "fresh" with clean air probably would require 500 cubic feet of air a minute or so. The exhaust could have pulled smoke down from the galley. A residential toilet fan is about 100 CFM
12. if the galley double doors where closed, then the only place for the fire heat and smoke to go was down to the bunk area
13. If I was in the upper bunk, I may have opened (if allowed) the emergency hatch just to get fresh air
14. utube shows lithium from a battery catching fire violently when placed in salt water. Maybe a battery had a casing leak and got wet.
15. The galley probably has a kitchen exhaust fan, but that probably was off. If on, it would have vented smoke.
16. It is hard to imagine how apparently none of the 34 did not wake up from the smoke and escape, or die by burns before being overcome by smoke. Just a horrible thought.
17. As horrible and unbelievable as it sounds and to even consider, Occam's Razor could lead one to consider sabotage to explain the totality loss of life so quickly

This is all so tragic and very sad.

FYI - The Vision is a similar ship to the Conception, but not a "sister ship," so it is not identical; they were built a number of years apart. I believe the stairs on the Conception were more curved, some described them as spiral. The escape hatches were pretty similar. On another forum someone stated there was an air vent in each bunk that circulated air if you had the curtain closed but I can't confirm that.

 

[danzn16]

I have been following Websleuths as well as various divers forums. I know that such forums are not regarded as something I can quote from, but I will say that some of the posters had been on overnight dive trips with Truth Aquatics and some on the Conception. The consensus among them is that many of the divers on these trips are regular people who enjoy diving as a hobby or recreational activity and that not all of them would be classified as athletes or super physically fit.

According to any article in the Huffington Post:

"When carrying out certain types of exercise on dry land (for example, running and jumping jacks), the effects cause extra stress to the joints, increasing the risk of injuries to certain areas of the body. This risk is more likely to happen as one gets older.

Thus, exercising in water is a highly encouraged method of exercise for those who suffer from joint problems, as well as the elderly who wish to participate in regular activity that would otherwise cause problems for them when carried out on dry land.

Exercising in water eliminates stress to the joints and muscles due to the fact that when in water, body weight is reduced by approximately 90 percent, thereby providing less overall impact on the body, that is often associated with land based exercises."​

Because of this, we cannot assume that everyone on the trip would have easily been able to exit through the escape hatch. And we cannot assume that all of the paid passengers on the Conception were risk-takers - I don't think we can categorize all recreational divers as such. tMany of the individuals on this dive may have simply enjoyed diving and came on that trip to be with a marine biologist who was going to introduce them to unusual marine life.

I agree with this that not all scuba divers are fit. Even my scuba instructor is overweight and diving is his only form of exercise.

However to scuba dive you automatically take on a risk. To do underwater breathing compressed air that does not allow you to go to the surface quickly or you would risk decompression sickness is a risk in itself. Going into the open ocean, a risk. Going underwater, a risk. However especially diving in the Pacific with rougher, colder waters in an area with Great Whites in the time of year there are more of these creatures, on a multi day trip which increases risk of decompression sickness, ehhh those are risks that I as a scuba diver am not advanced enough to be willing to take. So I disagree that scuba divers are not risk takers. Life and disability insurance companies also disagree with this statement. That being said, none of them thought they were at risk on the boat and never would have thought they would die by fire. I would agree they would want us to get to the bottom of what went wrong so they could decrease the chances of this ever happening to a wonderful group of adventurous souls ever again.

 

[BeachSky]

is this their waiver?


https://channelislandsdiveadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LiabilityTRUTH.pdf


JMO

 

[danzn16]

is this their waiver?


https://channelislandsdiveadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LiabilityTRUTH.pdf


JMO

No this seems a different company that probably has chartered the same boats previously. Waiver is likely similar.

Also wanted to point our most divers usually have scuba diving insurance with the Divers Alert Network. There will likely be some compensation available to families through this

 

[firebird]

No this seems a different company that probably has chartered the same boats previously. Waiver is likely similar.

Also wanted to point our most divers usually have scuba diving insurance with the Divers Alert Network. There will likely be some compensation available to families through this

The site it's uploaded to is different, but the form says Truth Aquatics at the bottom. Regardless, though, I agree it's likely a pretty standard form.

 

[al66pine]

Release Signed by Truth Passengers?

is this their waiver?

https://channelislandsdiveadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LiabilityTRUTH.pdf JMO

@BeachSky Thanks for your post w linked doc.
Just skimming thru the doc, seems like a release addressing risks of scuba diving and skin diving aspects of a dive trip. From that co's website, appears they do single-day and overnight* charters both.

Nothing in doc specifically referenced risks of boating/sailing/motoring itself. Or kayaking which Truth also offered. Imo, likely there was an additional release doc that Truth/Aquatics passengers signed, addressing those risks.
In some circumstances, courts have upheld passenger/user- signed releases (gen'ly) which precluded passenger recovery for injury, or passenger's survivors for pass. death. In other cases, courts have found certain release doc's to be overreaching, or to be too vague, or not to encompass the injury incurred, etc. and passengers/surviving fam. have recovered for injury or death.

Btw, I'm not saying that CIDA has/had any affiliation w Aquatics. All jmo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Info from channelislandsdiveadventures.com.under fax tab shows this co. charters boats from various co's, so there may be an additional waiver doc that the Truth/Aquatics passengers signed. Btw, Im not saying that CIDA has/had any affiliation w Aquatics.
"How do you decide which boats to charter?
We pick the boats to charter depending on the destination, length of trip and how many divers we would like to take. Some boats are better for smaller groups and others are better for longer trips (bunks) or overnight trips. We also keep in mind how good the crew is and are they safety conscious." bbm

 

[imstilla.grandma]

According to anonymous law enforcement sources cited by the outlet, a preliminary investigation into the blaze suggests the doomed ship was plagued by “serious safety deficiencies.”

Chief among those alleged lacking precautions was the absence of a “roaming night watchman”–a sort of all-purpose security guard required to be awake throughout the night in order to alert passengers and crew in the event of danger, such as a fire.

Investigators reportedly said their work showed the Conception’s crew had likely not received adequate safety training. Additionally, those sources said, it appeared the ship’s passengers had not received a complete safety briefing upon boarding the ship.

After the fire, Glen Fritzler posted the following message on the Truth Aquatics Facebook page:

We have not yet made a public statement because we have been working tirelessly with the [National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)] to find answers. As a member of the NTSB task force committee, we are prevented from commenting on details of this active investigation. We are committed to finding accurate answers as quickly as possible.

“Yet, we can speak to our emotions,” the non-official statement continued, “We are utterly crushed. We are devastated. We are a small, family-run business that has taken this event entirely to heart. Our customers are like family to us, many returning for decades. Our crew is family.”
Federal Agents Swarm Headquarters of Dive Boat Company After Fire Killed 34 People

 

[PrairieWind]

Authorities served search warrants Sunday at the Southern California company that owned the scuba diving boat that caught fire and killed 34 people last week.

Agents with the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and other agencies searched Truth Aquatics' offices in Santa Barbara and the company's two remaining boats, Santa Barbara County sheriff's Lt. Erik Raney said.

The warrants served shortly after 9 a.m. are part of the ongoing investigation into the tragedy to determine whether any crimes were committed, he said. The office was ringed in red "crime scene" tape as more than a dozen agents took photos and carried out boxes.

For a judge to approve warrants, law enforcement must spell out the probability a crime was committed. Raney declined to comment on what evidence was disclosed to obtain the warrants, saying only that they are "a pretty standard" part of the investigation to determine whether crimes occurred.
Search warrants served in California boat fire investigation

I can say this, that if the FBI and BATFE are serving search warrants then they have reason to believe a crime has committed. If this was just normal investigation, agencies have administrative remedies and warrants that they can obtain. This is criminal focused.

 

[happyday]

I can say this, that if the FBI and BATFE are serving search warrants then they have reason to believe a crime has committed. If this was just normal investigation, agencies have administrative remedies and warrants that they can obtain. This is criminal focused.

Thanks, PrairieWind. Would “serious safety deficiencies” be considered criminal?

 

[SandyQLS]

I can say this, that if the FBI and BATFE are serving search warrants then they have reason to believe a crime has committed. If this was just normal investigation, agencies have administrative remedies and warrants that they can obtain. This is criminal focused.

Thank you for your opinion. Headlines today, Monday, said as much, but the media likes drama, so I had some salt on it I think you are correct re: BATFE would specifically be concerned about explosives or accelerants, IOW an intentional fire. Maybe this is why they haven't released the name & info of the one missing person?