CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

[zwiebel]

I don't think JeM was working at the time of Bob's disappearance. IIRC his wife had posted something on her community forum in April of 2009 that he had been laid off.

Here's another question. If JeM was not working as of April of 2009 why did he wait until the day following a heated family discussion over his father in laws money to do these odd jobs at his FIL's home? Mrs. Harrod had flown back to Missouri approximately 3 weeks prior to Mr. Harrod's disappearance. If she was in MO packing her things for appx 3 weeks, why wait until appx 48 hours prior to her expected return to do odd jobs around the house?

Although it was only occasional, I was counting JeM's work as the repairs he often carried out at Bob's house.
Can't agree more about the last minute work. The repairs were NOT finished that day, indicated by JeM's note about returning. Yet any decent handyman would know approximately how long work would take. Surely he would have told Bob, 'No, I have to start earlier or I'll be still there with all my tools when FH walks in the door?'
If he was such a bad planner, why would Bob have used him for any length of time?

 

[shana]

How do YOU know that Mr Harrod himself had not invited his SIL to perform work until the last minute?<Mod Snip>
~jmo~

 

[shana]

The issue of the in terrorem clause was introduced upthread, for what reason I know not. None of us has access to the original trust docs to know if such was declared.

FYI:

California’s New No-Contest Law

~jmo~

 

[shana]

Privacy of trusts (as its very name implies):

Common purposes for trusts include:

Privacy. Trusts may be created purely for privacy. The terms of a will are public and the terms of a trust are not. In some families, this alone makes the use of trusts ideal.

Just one source: Trust law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, trusts are not typically recorded.

(This thread sorely needs a lawyer who specializes in Wills/Trusts/Estate matters.)

~jmo~

 

[gitana1]

Okay, got there in the end. Here's the address for maps:

15505 E. Lincoln Ave Orange, California 92856 USA

After all that though, it doesn't look right to me - too many houses nearby, too open and a relatively small area of land to hide anything in.

I live very near by (Placentia is the next city over) so if you ever want me to go and photograph an area, let me know. It's been very busy for me but if i get a message about something specific, I can do it.

Privacy of trusts (as its very name implies):

Common purposes for trusts include:

Privacy. Trusts may be created purely for privacy. The terms of a will are public and the terms of a trust are not. In some families, this alone makes the use of trusts ideal.

Just one source: Trust law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, trusts are not typically recorded.

(This thread sorely needs a lawyer who specializes in Wills/Trusts/Estate matters.)

~jmo~

I know very little about wills and trusts but I can probably help somewhat (also, I have a couple good friends who specialize in estate planning). Let me know what you need, but please put the question on my visitors message or PM me, otherwise, I may not see it as I often go long periods without visiting the thread.

 

[zwiebel]

How do YOU know that Mr Harrod himself had not invited his SIL to perform work until the last minute?<Mod Snip>
~jmo~

I am sure Mr Harrod could have done exactly that - that's what people who aren't practical often ask of their handymen! I have had lots of tradesmen working with me and often do it myself, even now. They either gently explain how my schedule is out of wack, or they simply refuse to take the work on. What none of them would ever do is accept the work, half finish it, then never return. I just can't get over that, it doesn't sit right.

 

[zwiebel]

Privacy of trusts (as its very name implies):

Common purposes for trusts include:

Privacy. Trusts may be created purely for privacy. The terms of a will are public and the terms of a trust are not. In some families, this alone makes the use of trusts ideal.

Just one source: Trust law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, trusts are not typically recorded.

(This thread sorely needs a lawyer who specializes in Wills/Trusts/Estate matters.)

~jmo~

I struggled with this area before, but just to say the privacy theory doesn't sit right with me either really. I can understand if a family had no money, they might not want the world to know, but then they wouldn't be in a financial position to create a trust. So, that indicates to me, if there's a trust, there is money. And a motive?

 

[zwiebel]

I live very near by (Placentia is the next city over) so if you ever want me to go and photograph an area, let me know. It's been very busy for me but if i get a message about something specific, I can do it.



I know very little about wills and trusts but I can probably help somewhat (also, I have a couple good friends who specialize in estate planning). Let me know what you need, but please put the question on my visitors message or PM me, otherwise, I may not see it as I often go long periods without visiting the thread.

Thanks gitana1, you must have laughed at my map efforts earlier!
Thanks also for the legal info offer - just have to learn how to properly find my way around the site first........

 

[GrainneDhu]

What a reasonable and well thought out post. I am sure with clear thinking like that we could create a personalized profile specifically for this case, that would be much more helpful.
I do think the money issue has been both a help and hindrance in this case; a help because it speaks to a motive; hindrance because it has allowed focus to be diverted from the obvious, so to speak. And perhaps allowed some people to ignore their conscience when, without the money, they might otherwise have come forward with information or suspicions.

I also wonder if there are one or more people who noticed something odd but have talked themselves out of sharing it as a tip to LE because they simply cannot believe the person they observed could possibly do something so horrible as to murder an older man.

I've seen in case after case where someone close to the perpetrator did notice one or more odd things but just could not believe their loved one, their friend, their colleague would commit a serious crime. Sometimes it takes those people years in order to get a greater perspective where they suddenly realise "yes, So-and-so could be guilty of that crime..."

 

[GrainneDhu]

Theory - Bob was abducted by someone who knew him, who drove a vehicle, who stood to gain financially from his disappearance/death.*

1: Who were the small circle of people surrounding Bob?
PB, RB, JuM, JeM, AH, FH, BL, CL, PE (neighbour), ON (other neighbours with key).

2: Who may have had access to Bob's house?
JeM, JuM (ented when he was not there), ON (had keys).

3: Who had opportunity to be there the day Bob disappeared?
JeM, CL(were there).

4: Who had a motive (money per LE suggestion) AND has gained since Bob disappeared?
PB, RB, JeM, JuM, AH, FH.

5: Who stood to gain if Bob had NOT disappeared?
BL, CL (lost job), FH.

6: Who had a vehicle and could drive?
PB, RB, JuM, JeM, AH, BL, CL (?), PE.

7: Who knew for certain Bob was in his house that day?
JeM, CL, PB.

8: Who knew the area?
PB, RB, JuM, JeM, AH, BL, CL, PE, ON.

9: Who missed work after disappearance?
JeM.

10: Who missed commitment to family member/appointment after disappearance?
Jem.

11: Who left town?
AH, JeM ( if you count never returning to house).

12: Who showed no interest?
JeM.

13: Who showed intense interest?
Unknown.

14: Who turned to alcohol, drugs?
Unknown.

15: Who changed vehicle?
JuM.

16: Who Knew Bob's schedule?
JeM, JuM, AH, BL, CL.

Just have to add the scores up now. There will be one point for each time a set of initials appear in an answer, except for number 5 where a point will be DEDUCTED. Ratings will go from high to low. The ratings will be in another post, eventually. Just a warning that math is not my strong point so expect some mistakes!

I admire your clear setting out of evaluating motive.

I'm usually not so interested in motive because history shows that many people murder for reasons normal people would never imagine. To quote Brenda Ann Spencer and the immortal bard Bob Geldof "I don't like Mondays."

But I think this case is all about motive(s) that are easy to see.

 

[zwiebel]

I admire your clear setting out of evaluating motive.

I'm usually not so interested in motive because history shows that many people murder for reasons normal people would never imagine. To quote Brenda Ann Spencer and the immortal bard Bob Geldof "I don't like Mondays."

But I think this case is all about motive(s) that are easy to see.

Giggling at the thought of Bob Geldorf the immortal bard, but then again I guess Shakespeare could have been pretty scruffy and pretty blunt too!

 

[zwiebel]

I also wonder if there are one or more people who noticed something odd but have talked themselves out of sharing it as a tip to LE because they simply cannot believe the person they observed could possibly do something so horrible as to murder an older man.

I've seen in case after case where someone close to the perpetrator did notice one or more odd things but just could not believe their loved one, their friend, their colleague would commit a serious crime. Sometimes it takes those people years in order to get a greater perspective where they suddenly realise "yes, So-and-so could be guilty of that crime..."

So true, GrainneDhu. I saw it in my own family. I was young enough then to believe you could take what proper grown-ups said and their appearances at face value. I hadn't learned the importance of the silences then, yet alone how to ignore them.
It was life-changing for me when my aunt was found, to discover how much had been ignored, what questions never asked. Some members of my family NEVER gained that 'greater perspective'......the silences just grew longer, and louder.
I believe it has lessened their lives and I believe it is a sin against humanity to have someone missing as though they had never existed; good or bad, loving or cold, mean or generous.
No good will ever come of it. The person who disappeared Bob will infect everyone around them until Bob is brought home.
JMO, but it is one formed through experience....

 

[believe09]

So true, GrainneDhu. I saw it in my own family. I was young enough then to believe you could take what proper grown-ups said and their appearances at face value. I hadn't learned the importance of the silences then, yet alone how to ignore them.
It was life-changing for me when my aunt was found, to discover how much had been ignored, what questions never asked. Some members of my family NEVER gained that 'greater perspective'......the silences just grew longer, and louder.
I believe it has lessened their lives and I believe it is a sin against humanity to have someone missing as though they had never existed; good or bad, loving or cold, mean or generous.
No good will ever come of it. The person who disappeared Bob will infect everyone around them until Bob is brought home.
JMO, but it is one formed through experience....

BBM. That ties it up in a bow for me, zwiebel, and I thank you.

How much had been ignored, what questions never asked. Like,what repairs had been done and a solid time line when Bob was last seen.

Another thing-that black SUV statement that was fed to fontelle...the one she repeated when she made the police report....It never happened-I would bet money on it. Someone told Fontelle that a black SUV was driving on the wrong side of the street, but that event never happened. Why would someone do that? We can tell from the report that it was meant to implicate BL.

 

[GrainneDhu]

So true, GrainneDhu. I saw it in my own family. I was young enough then to believe you could take what proper grown-ups said and their appearances at face value. I hadn't learned the importance of the silences then, yet alone how to ignore them.
It was life-changing for me when my aunt was found, to discover how much had been ignored, what questions never asked. Some members of my family NEVER gained that 'greater perspective'......the silences just grew longer, and louder.
I believe it has lessened their lives and I believe it is a sin against humanity to have someone missing as though they had never existed; good or bad, loving or cold, mean or generous.
No good will ever come of it. The person who disappeared Bob will infect everyone around them until Bob is brought home.
JMO, but it is one formed through experience....

I totally agree with you.

As a Buddhist, I have always been against the death penalty. But for a long time, my opposition was more intellectual than heartfelt (to my shame). And then one day, I read about a little 10 year old girl whose father had been on death row for several years. She said "I don't know why but some people want my daddy to die."

That turned my opposition heartfelt. How could I possibly look into a 10 year old girl's eyes and try to explain why her daddy was going to be killed? I couldn't. I really couldn't.

No matter how bad someone's acts are, they are human beings and they deserve to be treated with more dignity and respect than they treated their victim(s).

Where I am wandering around with all this is that I am sure Bob was fully a human being. He probably did make mistakes in raising his children, in dealing with other people he probably did some things they felt were wrong, etc.

But Fontelle loved him and misses him terribly.

Bob does not deserve to be forgotten and should not be forgotten, even by those who felt he had done them wrong.

 

[Angelo]

BBM. That ties it up in a bow for me, zwiebel, and I thank you.

How much had been ignored, what questions never asked. Like,what repairs had been done and a solid time line when Bob was last seen.

Another thing-that black SUV statement that was fed to fontelle...the one she repeated when she made the police report....It never happened-I would bet money on it. Someone told Fontelle that a black SUV was driving on the wrong side of the street, but that event never happened. Why would someone do that? We can tell from the report that it was meant to implicate BL.

BBM~~~~

Agree. Daughter PB posted the following shortly after her father's disappearance.


"There was a report that my BIL saw the type of car that the POI drives go by my Dad's house very slowly and then pull over on the wrong side of the street."


"Not aware of how many trips BIL made out, but feel that POI was lurking in the neighborhood or at least someone using her car. Maybe he promised to give her more money for the last time? This is all SPECULTION on my part. Heard from BIL that a car matching the description of hers was seen earlier that morning."

 

[believe09]

BBM~~~~

Agree. Daughter PB posted the following shortly after her father's disappearance.


"There was a report that my BIL saw the type of car that the POI drives go by my Dad's house very slowly and then pull over on the wrong side of the street."


"Not aware of how many trips BIL made out, but feel that POI was lurking in the neighborhood or at least someone using her car. Maybe he promised to give her more money for the last time? This is all SPECULTION on my part. Heard from BIL that a car matching the description of hers was seen earlier that morning."

Thanks, Angelo!

So BIL told family that a black SUV matching a description of BL's was seen (presumably by him?) driving on the wrong side of the street.

Did he get a Lic Plate number I wonder? When did this alleged siting occur? Before or after his trip/possible trips to Home Depot?

I think it is hogwash fwiw. I think this was meant to deceive. JMVHO.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM~~~~

Agree. Daughter PB posted the following shortly after her father's disappearance.


"There was a report that my BIL saw the type of car that the POI drives go by my Dad's house very slowly and then pull over on the wrong side of the street."


"Not aware of how many trips BIL made out, but feel that POI was lurking in the neighborhood or at least someone using her car. Maybe he promised to give her more money for the last time? This is all SPECULTION on my part. Heard from BIL that a car matching the description of hers was seen earlier that morning."

It is the detached language of 'there was a report', that catches my eye. No, 'I asked my BIL....'.?

Just wish whoever is in charge of that facebook page would start putting up some useful information and encouraging people to help. Even if people in Bob's neighbourhood spoke to police that day, keeping up his profile might help them remember something, or reconsider something they didn't mention at the time because they thought it was unimportant. An active page would be so helpful when Disappeared airs too.
ETA: OOps, my bad. Just noticed the other quote that said 'I heard from my BIL...'. What a relief to know that at least one family member is asking questions - that gives me hope!

 

[zwiebel]

The other thing I would like to see is an updated blog about Bob from his former neighbour. Although I don't necessarily agree with his criticism of LE, anyone reading his words couldn't help but think; 'Now there's a man worth finding. How can I help?'

It's such a shame he seems to have been discouraged. He presented the character of Mr Harrod in a way that the msm articles, despite their details, couldn't seem to capture. I think he has been quite brave. In fact, I think he and FH have been the bravest of the bunch; neighbour for coming out and waving his fist (gently) at LE and the BL and anyone else for their behaviour; FH for moving home and staying put. Even though she had expected her husband to be there and found herself alone!

I know only too well how hard it can be to arrive in a new town, not knowing anyone. I have Mr Zwiebel (sometimes!) though, and am a bit younger than FH. In waiting for her husband to return, despite all the terrible circumstances she found herself in, I think she has done all she could - I don't know if I could have done the same.

(By the way, I don't mean to criticize Bob's old neighbour. I just think that the pretty unique circumstances surrounding Mr Harrod's disappearance caused a vital delay in LE being certain he was endangered missing. After that, a simple lack of information - maybe co-operation? has really hampered the investigation. As Shana pointed out to me earlier, Placentia is a safe, bedroom community. I can't imagine any good officer being complacent about having a missing man in his eighties on their watch, and I just get the feeling (not pretending I know anything) that they are waiting and*watching for something to break.

 

[believe09]

The other thing I would like to see is an updated blog about Bob from his former neighbour. Although I don't necessarily agree with his criticism of LE, anyone reading his words couldn't help but think; 'Now there's a man worth finding. How can I help?'

It's such a shame he seems to have been discouraged. He presented the character of Mr Harrod in a way that the msm articles, despite their details, couldn't seem to capture. I think he has been quite brave. In fact, I think he and FH have been the bravest of the bunch; neighbour for coming out and waving his fist (gently) at LE and the BL and anyone else for their behaviour; FH for moving home and staying put. Even though she had expected her husband to be there and found herself alone!

I know only too well how hard it can be to arrive in a new town, not knowing anyone. I have Mr Zwiebel (sometimes!) though, and am a bit younger than FH. In waiting for her husband to return, despite all the terrible circumstances she found herself in, I think she has done all she could - I don't know if I could have done the same.

(By the way, I don't mean to criticize Bob's old neighbour. I just think that the pretty unique circumstances surrounding Mr Harrod's disappearance caused a vital delay in LE being certain he was endangered missing. After that, a simple lack of information - maybe co-operation? has really hampered the investigation. As Shana pointed out to me earlier, Placentia is a safe, bedroom community. I can't imagine any good officer being complacent about having a missing man in his eighties on their watch, and I just get the feeling (not pretending I know anything) that they are waiting and*watching for something to break.

IIRC, he was attacked online by a family member and an unspeakable accusation was made against him by that person, also online. If I am remembering the story correctly, the family member later apologized. ( I have no links, merely my recollection of why he stopped posting here.)

Well, emotions were running high at that time I expect.

I kind of always felt that it was ultimately a successful effort to drive him off of the www, but we have agreed that I am cynical.

He was for sure the voice for Bob right out of the gate-He admired Fontelle and recognized how happy she made his friend. I am certain that he has many stories of his friendship...

 

[Cubby]

PE mentioned the threatening message from one of Bob's daughters on his blog:

One of Bob’s daughters was watching also. She sent me a threatening message to stop posting. I continued to post anyway.

http://paulkestes.blogspot.com/2010/07/bob-harrod-missing-one-year.html