CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #12

[zwiebel]

I'm guessing the conservators of the trust made the notifications very quickly after Bob disappeared, so all payments were suspended. Maybe very quickly indeed? If they failed to do this and money was paid out wrongly, the estate would probably be liable to repay it.

In one of the court documents we have, it certainly doesn't seem as though Mrs Harrod benefited from any pension or ss payments after Bob disappeared. I think she just had a small pension of her own.

I would have thought there would be an obligation to report any changes to the IRS too, but I can't face that website again at the moment.

 

[believe09]

I'm guessing the conservators of the trust made the notifications very quickly after Bob disappeared, so all payments were suspended. Maybe very quickly indeed? If they failed to do this and money was paid out wrongly, the estate would probably be liable to repay it.

In one of the court documents we have, it certainly doesn't seem as though Mrs Harrod benefited from any pension or ss payments after Bob disappeared. I think she just had a small pension of her own.

I would have thought there would be an obligation to report any changes to the IRS too, but I can't face that website again at the moment.

But the question has to be why? WHY were the payments suspended? It makes no earthly sense to turn back money that belongs to him. Especially once it was clear that he wasnt coming back. At least by August 1 2009 one family member was pretty sure of that, we have subsequently learned.

Can anyone shed light on this from personal experience? Has anyone been the go to for a loved on and opted to suspend pension payments and social security payments?

 

[believe09]

Wait a minute-oddly enough perhaps this has been the theme of this conservatorship. Suspend pension payments and social security, forgive a massive debt...perhaps they arent about making money or maintaining Bob's assets as they have been sworn to do.

Think about it. They emptied his house. They have control of his money. They stopped his pension payments and his social security payments. They arent requiring AH to pay his huge debt or to have PB pay her rent. They are trying to force his wife back to Missouri.

Maybe their intention is to leave him nothing. When he comes home, however he comes home, maybe he isnt supposed to have anything left at all.

Chilling thought. Surely I am mistaken.

 

[zwiebel]

When Bob comes home he will probably have only his life insurance and funeral plan left. I suspect payments on them have been maintained.

I hope Mrs Harrod can hang onto their marital home though, so at least Bob will have a home to come back to.

 

[Cubby]

Who was responsible for the pension and social security being stopped?

 

[believe09]

Who was responsible for the pension and social security being stopped?

No clue. I think it depends on when it was done. It seems pretty unlikely that it was Bob.

 

[zwiebel]

I would have thought it must have been those responsible for the estate, the conservators. i think they would be the only ones with the authority. But they must also know exactly when it happened, in that case.

 

[believe09]

This whole thing fascinates me.

Here is what the Social Security Administration says on their website-

If you are already entitled to benefits, you may voluntarily suspend current or future retirement benefit payments up to age 70 beginning the month after the month when you made the request.

So Bob couldnt opt to suspend his payments given that he was well over 70. I guess.

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/retire2/suspend.htm

There is a strategy as to why you or your spouse would do this-I will leave you all to reading the website to sort it out, lol.

 

[believe09]

Now we need to know the tax consequences to suspending both.

 

[zwiebel]

Didn't they manage to get control of Bob's bank account very quickly after his disappearance?

 

[Cubby]

I'm sure it wasn't Bob. My question is what is protocal for a missing person when the recipient is unable to receive his or her pension and social security? When an official MP report is filed is the stopping of one's pension and social security an automatic and each place holds the money for the recipient until the recipient can receive it or is declared deceased?

Could LE or Mrs. Harrod have notified these agencies?

Would Mrs. Harrod be entitled to Bob's pension and social security if he is not declared deceased?

I'm sure some protocal exists and someone knows when these payments stopped being received.

 

[Cubby]

I would have thought it must have been those responsible for the estate, the conservators. i think they would be the only ones with the authority. But they must also know exactly when it happened, in that case.

If it was the conservators and they had the authority to do so, there should be some paperwork somewhere that indicates an initiation of stopping payments.

 

[zwiebel]

On all the websites that give advice on missing persons and benefits and pension, they stress that the notification date is very important. I had a link advising lawyers on the subject, which also said the notification dates were vital. And the timescale is vital too.

I'll have to go back and try and find it because i didn't read it all.

 

[zwiebel]

'Perhaps the biggest 'must do' in regard to Social Security is to notify the Social Security Administration (SSA) as soon as possible following a person's disappearance.....retroactive claims will be enforceable only if the SSA was notified at the time of disappearance and there is proof that notification took place. Attorneys should advise family members to keep phone records and/or document notification to the SSA.'

http://www.wipfli.com/resources/images/26123.pdf

 

[zwiebel]

Looks like life insurance will be paid out and backdated to the date of death, with interest, as long as premiums are kept up.

Life Insurance Claims

'The date of death as notified by the courts is critically important to life insurance benefits. Once a petition of death is granted, the date of death in the ruling must coincide with a date of death on which life insurance was paid and in force if the family is to claim benefits.......estate planners should encourage families to continue payment of premiums for an extended period'.

http://www.wipfli.com/resources/images/26123.pdf

 

[believe09]

'Perhaps the biggest 'must do' in regard to Social Security is to notify the Social Security Administration (SSA) as soon as possible following a person's disappearance.....retroactive claims will be enforceable only if the SSA was notified at the time of disappearance and there is proof that notification took place. Attorneys should advise family members to keep phone records and/or document notification to the SSA.'

http://www.wipfli.com/resources/images/26123.pdf

This is a fantastic, if brief, resource zwiebel.

from your link:

However, retroactive claims will be enforceable only if the SSA was
notified at the time of disappearance and there is proof that
notification took place. Attorneys should advise family members to
keep phone records and/or document notification to the SSA.

Other monetary benefits that could be impacted include pension,
short-term disability, health insurance, 401(k), vacation
compensation, and other work-related benefits. Each benefit will
require phone calls to confirm claims requirements and to determine
opportunities for financial assistance.

The PDF gets into POA's. I am pretty sure there is one here-gitana1 can confirm.

Now, does SSA automatically suspend payments once the person is reported missing or can the payments continue to pay? That is the part I am unclear about. For example, if there is a POA and there are co conservators/trustees, why cant they receive the income due from SSA and Bob's pension? Presumably, they are filing taxes on the money in the trusts.

 

[zwiebel]

I can't work out any tax reasons, but I can think of reasons why it might have been of benefit to keep the income of the trust as low as possible while certain negotiations were/are ongoing. Especially if some of that money can be reclaimed at a later, more convenient date.

AH's rent was nearly 4,000 a month. Maybe PB's was 3,000? Bob's pension was 4,000? SS 2,000? So that's a reduction in the trust's income of about 13,000 a month. Roughly $156,000 a year. All moo, just guesswork.

With reductions like that, conservators might have to look to reducing outgoings in other areas.

 

[zwiebel]

I've been looking for an answer to that exact question about automatic (or not) suspension of payments believe09. It's proving elusive.

 

[Oriah]

I'm sure it wasn't Bob. My question is what is protocal for a missing person when the recipient is unable to receive his or her pension and social security? When an official MP report is filed is the stopping of one's pension and social security an automatic and each place holds the money for the recipient until the recipient can receive it or is declared deceased?

Could LE or Mrs. Harrod have notified these agencies?

Would Mrs. Harrod be entitled to Bob's pension and social security if he is not declared deceased?

I'm sure some protocal exists and someone knows when these payments stopped being received.

Bolded by me:
This I do have some experience with. I *think* the answer is no.

Here- when someone goes missing, is not recovered, or is not declared deceased; if they are not a dependant of anyone, then any action on a SS account on behalf of anyone else is not going to be valid. GITANA where are you, lol!

Perhaps this issue of pension and SS got hung up when GH passed away, and was then never resolved? Or perhaps there is fraud involved on top of more fraud?

Did GH have a living will? Was Mr or Mrs. (G) Harrod claimed as a dependant on anyone elses taxes since 2009? Who has filed the taxes for the trust since Mr. Harrod has been missing?

 

[zwiebel]

Link to a prosecution of a woman who continued to claim her father's benefits after he went missing (he's still on Namus). She was unmasked when he supposedly reached age 103.

Another case was not prosecuted because the money was still sitting in a joint bank account and was recovered. It's beginning to sound like notification is a legal requirement and payment suspension is automatic, although I can imagine that would cause great financial distress to some families at their time of greatest need.

'Woman admits to taking missing father's benefits'

http://projects.registerguard.com/w...1/security-social-mcrae-bryant-fraud.html.csp

Wow, another one; son, daughter and son in law claimed mom's benefits for 30 years. Now LE are digging the garden for her!

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...ity-checks-of-woman-missing-for-30-years?lite