CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #1

[mollymae]

Argh, I couldn't stop thinking about this case last night. I even dreamt about it! One thing that was nagging at me was this: Considering some of the clientele at The Cecil (drug addicts, homeless people), how many other people have gone missing without even being reported? Seems to me that a hotel like this one would be the perfect setting for a killer who was employed there.

 

[mollymae]

"Los Angeles police investigators searched the roof of the Cecil with the aid of dogs when Lam was reported missing about three weeks ago. Lopez said he didn't know if the tanks were examined."

- Is it possible Elisa wasn't in the tank yet when they searched the roof? Those dogs have pretty amazing noses...

"A locked door that only employees have access to and a fire escape are the only ways to get to the roof. The door is equipped with an alarm system that would notify the hotel that someone was up there, Lopez said."

- Too weird. How would someone get a body up that huge fire escape without anyone seeing? And certainly Elisa herself couldn't have gone unnoticed. There are also several other tall buildings surrounding the hotel with a clear view of the Cecil's roof. To me, it had to be an employee or maintenance person...someone who wouldn't look amiss up there. And obviously someone who knew how to disable/bypass that alarm. I wonder if there are any surveillance cameras on any of the other surrounding buildings that could see the fire escape or roof area? Let's hope so.

Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-body-water-tower-20130220,0,3005517.story

 

[MissieMt]

Same here Mollymae. I was talking with my husband about it last night before we went to sleep (so romantic, I know). We both agreed it would have to be an inside job. He watched the video of her yesterday. He felt like she was nervous, maybe a little scared-but not quite sure why, but mostly just nervous. He thought that the talking/hand gestures could have been her talking with someone who was trying to convince her to do something she didn't really want to do. I have some more thoughts after reading everyone's posts from last night but I want to grab links/quotes for reference.

 

[archivist]

Considering some of the clientele at The Cecil (drug addicts, homeless people), how many other people have gone missing without even being reported? Seems to me that a hotel like this one would be the perfect setting for a killer who was employed there.

mollymae, I know the area well, and your assumptions are incorrect.

Homeless people do not live in SRO residency hotels, which is what the majority of this hotel still operates as (the Cecil portion)--the "hip" hostel portion (Stay) which is marketed to foreign tourists is a small portion of the structure, with a separate lobby.

I believe that some rooms at the Cecil are not long-term, but turn over to transient hotel guests. I may have missed it, but do we know what part of the building Miss Lam was staying in?

The hotel's residents are older people on fixed incomes, poor people, some with physical or mental health issues, and yes, probably some people taking methadone to control their opiate addictions, but none of them are by definition homeless because they are long-term residents of the Cecil. These legally mandated affordable housing rooms are very rare and prized due to the gentrification of the neighborhood, which has raised rents in other buildings in the area. A well-run residency hotel won't tolerate sketchy behavior from its tenants, but the Cecil is under new management in the past few years, and I'm not familiar with their policies or abilities.

There are a lot of drugs on Skid Row to the east of Main Street, and many addicted people live on the street. Some of them come into the gentrified residential neighborhood during the day, to panhandle, visit the library, or run errands, but generally the homeless community keeps to itself. There are also a lot of mentally ill people on Skid Row, but these people are far more frequently victimized than they hurt others.

If people were disappearing from the hotel, it wouldn't go unnoticed. The local police are competent and have a lot of community engagement. Maybe an old person with no family could vanish, but if young travelers were going missing, we'd know.

The second tragedy of whatever happened to Miss Lam is that her disappearance was overshadowed by the massive search for Christopher Dorner. It was publicly announced that other police activities were being neglected due to the manpower dedicated to protection and investigation. Maybe if the video had been released earlier, or the whole building searched, or more time dedicated to finding Miss Lam on local newscasts...

 

[dotr]

Argh, I couldn't stop thinking about this case last night. I even dreamt about it! One thing that was nagging at me was this: Considering some of the clientele at The Cecil (drug addicts, homeless people), how many other people have gone missing without even being reported? Seems to me that a hotel like this one would be the perfect setting for a killer who was employed there.

This song kept going through my head..
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUbTW928sMU"]The Eagles - Hotel California (with Lyrics in the Description) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Catchew]

After watching the video a few more times, I am still convinced that the first button she pushes lights up and immediately goes unlit when she takes her finger off, then the four underneath stay lit after she pushes them. Based on the yelp picture of the elevator panel posted earlier in the thread, the button I am referring to would be 14th floor (12th is to the left of it and 15th is to the right of it). If what I am seeing is correct, wouldn't that mean she was on the 14th floor? If she wasn't staying on the 14th floor, I wonder why she would be there.
Do we know if she was staying at the Cecil or the Stay on Main? I believe tarabull posted that the Stay on Main occupied floors 4 - 6 (I'll look back in the thread to confirm). So, if she was in fact staying within floors 4-6, why would she be on the 14th floor?
What happened to you Elisa? This is so sad and scary.

ETA:
Found the post from tarabull:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarabull View Post
Rooms for Stay occupy floors four through six of the historic hotel.

http://blogdowntown.com/2008/07/3465...s-in-the-cecil

BUT - do we know which one she was staying at? The Cecil or Stay?

 

[MissieMt]

Similar case, other side of the globe..
http://www.asiaone.com/print/News/AsiaOne+News/Singapore/Story/A1Story20110518-279311.html
"On Monday morning, residents of Block 686B noticed that their tap water was unnaturally frothy and discoloured.

Soon after, the body of 30-year-old Indonesian maid Ruliyawati was discovered in one of eight water tanks atop the 15-storey block. She worked for a family on the sixth floor.

While it is not known when the body ended up inside the tank, The Straits Times reported yesterday that residents had heard screams at 7am, and that many had used water from their taps before supply was cut off at 11am.

A 27-year-old Bangladeshi maintenance worker from Sergent Services has been arrested in connection with the case.

Los Angeles police investigators searched the roof of the Cecil with the aid of dogs when Lam was reported missing about three weeks ago. Lopez said he didn't know if the tanks were examined.

"We did a very thorough search of the hotel," he said. "But we didn't search every room; we could only do that if we had probable cause" that a crime had been committed.

snip

A cause of death is still to be determined by county coroner’s officials, Lopez said.

A locked door that only employees have access to and a fire escape are the only ways to get to the roof.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-body-water-tower-20130220,0,3005517.story

Respectfully snipped/bolded by me
I wanted to bring forward these posts. I think they pretty much solidify that this was foul play and that it was a hotel employee.
-A woman is murdered, presumably at approx 7 am, and by 11am the water is noticeably discolored and frothy. I'm sure that chemistry has to come into play here. The water tank in that case could have been smaller, and that would make the "bio hazards" more concentrated. But I would think that if Elisa had been in the tank the whole time, there would be evidence of "bio hazard" in the water supply. But according to this link, none has been found:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8998881

Fire officials say they were told by city health inspectors that the water in the tank contains no biohazards, but they turned the water supply off to the rooms and the rest of the hotel immediately after the discovery of the body.

-Dogs searched that roof, and those dogs know what the heck they're doing. That leads me to believe she was put there after.
-Access to the roof is restricted to only employees. Somebody did post a quote earlier about someone saying that there are other ways to get up there and that there is sometimes someone living there. That ay be true, but we need to consider it rumor until proven, imo. I think if there really were other ways to get up there, LE would have said so. They would probably say "the roof is accessible to anyone, so anyone could have done this". Even if they felt it was a hotel employee, I think they would say that if they factually could so that the killer would feel more relaxed and possibly slip up. It's LAPD, they've got enough problems. I don't think they're going to fib about who has access to the roof because that could easily be proven as a lie.
-If it were a mental break I think she would have been "noticed" by someone. I still feel like she was talking to someone in that video. If she were having a mental break and that person had no darker motives, why wouldn't they be saying "Yeah, I saw her-girl was losing it". And why wouldn't they alert hotel staff? Why, if they had no darkness in mind, would they not have tried to help her?

 

[mollymae]

mollymae, I know the area well, and your assumptions are incorrect.

Homeless people do not live in SRO residency hotels, which is what the majority of this hotel still operates as (the Cecil portion)--the "hip" hostel portion (Stay) which is marketed to foreign tourists is a small portion of the structure, with a separate lobby.

I believe that some rooms at the Cecil are not long-term, but turn over to transient hotel guests. I may have missed it, but do we know what part of the building Miss Lam was staying in?

The hotel's residents are older people on fixed incomes, poor people, some with physical or mental health issues, and yes, probably some people taking methadone to control their opiate addictions, but none of them are by definition homeless because they are long-term residents of the Cecil. These legally mandated affordable housing rooms are very rare and prized due to the gentrification of the neighborhood, which has raised rents in other buildings in the area. A well-run residency hotel won't tolerate sketchy behavior from its tenants, but the Cecil is under new management in the past few years, and I'm not familiar with their policies or abilities.

There are a lot of drugs on Skid Row to the east of Main Street, and many addicted people live on the street. Some of them come into the gentrified residential neighborhood during the day, to panhandle, visit the library, or run errands, but generally the homeless community keeps to itself. There are also a lot of mentally ill people on Skid Row, but these people are far more frequently victimized than they hurt others.

If people were disappearing from the hotel, it wouldn't go unnoticed. The local police are competent and have a lot of community engagement. Maybe an old person with no family could vanish, but if young travelers were going missing, we'd know.

The second tragedy of whatever happened to Miss Lam is that her disappearance was overshadowed by the massive search for Christopher Dorner. It was publicly announced that other police activities were being neglected due to the manpower dedicated to protection and investigation. Maybe if the video had been released earlier, or the whole building searched, or more time dedicated to finding Miss Lam on local newscasts...

Thanks for clarifying. It's always helpful to have someone local give their insight. I've never even been close to L.A., although with the winter weather here it's looking pretty good right now!

I had read somewhere that the Cecil was a popular spot for those "on the verge of homelessness", but you're right - that's different than actually being homeless. My point was just that some of these people with addiction issues, mental health issues, etc. might not necessarily be reported missing. Although I suppose if someone was successfully killing people in the hotel, I don't know why they'd suddenly start using the water tank for disposal. I find it to be an odd place for disposal. Surely the perp knew she'd be found there eventually...I wonder if this is someone who gets off on the thrill of knowing other people in the hotel were using the water for bathing/drinking. Ick.

 

[rillem]

Wouldn't the condition of the body be a sign as to how long it had been in the tank? And isn't water notorious for getting rid of evidence? I hope the autopsy will have answers. Poor, poor girl. It takes courage to travel by oneself.

That video bothers be so much. Partially because she may have been followed and scared of someone...but if she wasn't, it's disconcerting to see an adult acting so bizarre and childlike. (That last part isn't meant to sound condescending...it just makes me concerned about her mental state). Jury's out for me on this one though...hopefully there were other cameras in the hallway.

 

[rillem]

One more thing. After reading more about the hotel I wouldn't put it past a place like that to maybe not have a functioning alarm to the roof? Who knows the last time it was checked. Or the locks for that matter. I also can't shake that case of the girl that crawled into the air vent (or whatever it was) and just got stuck That being said, I do think someone else was involved and hope they catch that sorry sob asap.

 

[AnonymousD]

Hey AnonymousD

I hope this helps provide the answer to your questions about the tanks...and that you can get some sleep...

Scroll down for info on roof top watertanks:

Water tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ahhh, thank you, tarabull!!

Now I understand. It has to do with water pressure in tall buildings.

Out in the country, we don't have such tall buildings. :blushing:




Here's another link that explains:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/water.htm

In a city, tall buildings often need to solve their own water pressure problems. Because the buildings are so tall, they often exceed the height that the city's water pressure can handle. So a tall building will have its own pumps and its own water towers.

 

[jetsetsam]

The narrator for this reporting video says that the California Department of Corrections has in the past used the Cecil Hotel for accommodation of high risk offenders out on parole.

Includng those incarcerated for violent crimes such as rape and murder.

The narrator did say that at the time of the video it was not known if any such parolees were staying at the hotel.

But the LAPD would know.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggFBiISNOZA"]Missing Canadian Student Elisa Lam - YouTube[/ame]

 

[MissieMt]

Lol, don't take it as ignorance from being in the country AnonymousD. I live in Austin. Not a huge city, but there are big buildings, condos, hotels etc. and I had no clue that there even were water tanks on tall buildings. Even my husband (who travels extensively, many hotels in many big cities and seems to know at least a little about everything) said he only knew about them because he saw one in a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie lol.

 

[TxLady2]

I had to quote you because I absolutely agree with all you said and felt thanks wasn't enough.
I will be absolutely livid if there really was an obstruction in the plumbing after she went missing and LE was not notified or did not investigate properly. The "obstruction" screams of evidence. Whether it be a weapon or just something used to clean up or evidence from a sexual assault (I want to vomit....and scream)....they had better have looked into that "obstruction".
I'm really hoping this is solved quickly. There should be video of something unusual going on (besides the video of Elisa). I can't imagine them not having surveillance on the roof and/or leading up to the roof. Who can take a body up to a roof without it being noticed or caught on camera, even if the body was concealed? Look at who went to that rooftop, and then look at who went up with something large enough to hide a body. If there isn't video, then I would assume it's been destroyed and I would look straight to the people who could possibly do that. I think it's pretty obvious that this was done by an employee. I wouldn't be surprised if LE already has a pretty good idea of who could be responsible.

It's possible that she was led, not carried up to the roof. Someone could have forced her to come with them using a knife or even some kind of trickery. Now that elevator video is making more sense. She was spooked by someone. I would be looking VERY closely at the maintenance crew.

She was murdered, no doubt about it. I really hate that I came on this morning and saw this news. Bless her sweet soul, my heart goes out to her family. None of us wanted it to end this way.

 

[TxLady2]

I'm surprised so few recognized her behavior as psychosis. I live in an area with a ton of homeless, I'm from an area filled with them and I work a lot in LA where masses of homeless congregate. I'm friendly with many and have been since I was a teen. I know what psychosis looks like and I'm 100% sure that's what this gal was experiencing.

Whether drug induced or as a result of schizophrenia, I can't be sure but I'd guess it's schizophrenia.

She may have been taken advantage of by someone at the hotel while in a psychotic state, but I think it's possible that she got into the tank on her own. There are little ladders going up them.

The only thing that blows that theory is that you need codes and things to get onto the roof.

Btw, everyone was asking how the elevator door stayed open. Elevator buttons are at chest or chin level, not stomach or knee level. No one has to bend over to reach the buttons. Looks to me like she opened the little door elevators have that house security and help buttons. The regular buttons appear to be horizontal, at her chine level.

I think she pressed a security button that holds the door open.

Are you saying this is standard in all elevators? If so, I beg to differ with you. I've been on the elevators of both large hospitals in my area, as well as other buildings, many times, and the buttons are at waist or stomach height, not chest or chin level.
If you are referring to the elevators at this particular hotel, or even most hotels, then I don't know for certain. The last hotel I stayed at was a few years ago, and I don't really recall where the buttons were located. But I do know about the elevators around here that I am familiar with, so if you mean all elevators, I respectfully disagree.

 

[Chorley8]

I'm concerned they chose to release that video of Elisa: to what purpose?

As has been pointed out there is problem with time sequence on the video - and it is possible something has been taken out of the frames at some point (the shadows etc). Why not a series of screen shots? (which in fact don't show her in any obvious disarray). Or they must have video of her checking in etc. If they felt this video suggested mental difficulties surely they could ask friends and family and her doctor - not the public - and they aren't really asking - but most media outlets describe her as acting "bizarrely". The mirrors outside the door are a clue - it seems likely she was using those to look down the hallways.

I am concerned that the mental health diagnosis and hence misadventure and suicide idea is being facilitated by a confluence of LE and media reporting. VERY difficult to diagnose psychosis in this way - her behaviour is mysterious but we don't what what she is seeing and just as importantly what she is HEARING or experiencing or feeling - or as I suggested previously what has already happened before the video sequence. In old buildings often sound carries in odd ways.

And now we have LAPD already suggesting possible mental issues or an unusual accident. Why would they start with that? Even a trained psychiatrist could not possibly make a diagnosis of Elisa form that video let alone teachers, attorneys, whatever else we all are on WS.


By the way in an earlier post someone said you could get to the roof via the fire escapes from the 15th floor on up and also there was an elevator room somewhere up there (not sure what they meant) and that someone was sometimes living in it - they added "scary". You need a ladder to take up to the top of the tanks. So I think she could have got on to the roof. I also think multiple people could have got her onto the roof not just employees.

I would like to know more about the time she spent in San Diego. And how she learned about the Cecil. Could be their phoney adverts. Could be something else.

"Investigators used body markings to identify her, L.A. police spokesperson Officer Diana Figueroa said late Tuesday" . (from CTV) (I hope her parents get a chance to identify her with their own eyes essential IMO.)

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/missin...oftop-water-tank-lapd-1.1163870#ixzz2LSXZVYtD)

 

[Dushi]

I'm concerned they chose to release that video of Elisa: to what purpose?

As has been pointed out there is problem with time sequence on the video - and it is possible something has been taken out of the frames at some point (the shadows etc). Why not a series of screen shots? (which in fact don't show her in any obvious disarray). Or they must have video of her checking in etc. If they felt this video suggested mental difficulties surely they could ask friends and family and her doctor - not the public - and they aren't really asking - but most media outlets describe her as acting "bizarrely". The mirrors outside the door are a clue - it seems likely she was using those to look down the hallways.

I am concerned that the mental health diagnosis and hence misadventure and suicide idea is being facilitated by a confluence of LE and media reporting. VERY difficult to diagnose psychosis in this way - her behaviour is mysterious but we don't what what she is seeing and just as importantly what she is HEARING or experiencing or feeling - or as I suggested previously what has already happened before the video sequence. In old buildings often sound carries in odd ways.

And now we have LAPD already suggesting possible mental issues or an unusual accident. Why would they start with that? Even a trained psychiatrist could not possibly make a diagnosis of Elisa form that video let alone teachers, attorneys, whatever else we all are on WS.


By the way in an earlier post someone said you could get to the roof via the fire escapes from the 15th floor on up and also there was an elevator room somewhere up there (not sure what they meant) and that someone was sometimes living in it - they added "scary". You need a ladder to take up to the top of the tanks. So I think she could have got on to the roof. I also think multiple people could have got her onto the roof not just employees.

I would like to know more about the time she spent in San Diego. And how she learned about the Cecil. Could be their phoney adverts. Could be something else.

"Investigators used body markings to identify her, L.A. police spokesperson Officer Diana Figueroa said late Tuesday" . (from CTV) (I hope her parents get a chance to identify her with their own eyes essential IMO.)

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/missin...oftop-water-tank-lapd-1.1163870#ixzz2LSXZVYtD)

Why is that essential?

I don't find anything odd about LE releasing the elevator video
Its what they had, the last time she was on video
It could have made someone recall something

I am no mental health expert, but I don't see a problem with what was shown
and IMO, her bahavior was rather odd, I do not know the reason for that.

 

[AnonymousD]

Bump (Every Second is Gold as far as Layout).

It appears to me (from the view in this video) that Elisa was found in the back RH side water tank. The one with the flap open. Is that what you all gather as well?

Also, where are those 3 fire escape ladders that was quoted earlier someone had used in the past to climb on the roof to watch sunsets?

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...Where-Missing-Woman-Elisa-Lame-191886411.html

There's one door to the roof that is alarmed but there are also 3 fire escape ladders. Those ladders are not secure and anyone can go up them from the 15th floor. I used them to climb on the roof during sun set as it was a nice view. Sometimes you would find someone living in the room with the elevator equipment. That door was also unsecured. Scary.

 

[gitana1]

I'm inclined to think that if she was having trouble understanding why the elevator shouldn't work as it should, that, somehow figuring one's way onto (what should be) a secured-access rooftop, and into a water tank enclosure, is just unlikely.

I've been wrong before, but pending the outcome of her CoD I'd be skeptical that any kind of fugue state might have her negotiating the mechanics of getting to the roof (if the access was locked) and then into the tank.

Again, JMO.

Nah. My sister in law works with schizophrenics. Has for years. I've had discussions with her as to how people in psychosis, off their meds, manage to survive on the streets, get food and shelter on a daily basis as well as negotiate social security to get their money. They manage. How, I don't know bu they manage.

To me, Elisa looked like she was listening to voices. I don't know if she meant to go anywhere in the elevator.

As far as being in a fugue state, I had to look that up. It appears to be a type of amnesia. I don't think that's what was happening here. Looks more like psychosis. IMO.

 

[gitana1]

I'm concerned they chose to release that video of Elisa: to what purpose?

As has been pointed out there is problem with time sequence on the video - and it is possible something has been taken out of the frames at some point (the shadows etc). Why not a series of screen shots? (which in fact don't show her in any obvious disarray). Or they must have video of her checking in etc. If they felt this video suggested mental difficulties surely they could ask friends and family and her doctor - not the public - and they aren't really asking - but most media outlets describe her as acting "bizarrely". The mirrors outside the door are a clue - it seems likely she was using those to look down the hallways.

I am concerned that the mental health diagnosis and hence misadventure and suicide idea is being facilitated by a confluence of LE and media reporting. VERY difficult to diagnose psychosis in this way - her behaviour is mysterious but we don't what what she is seeing and just as importantly what she is HEARING or experiencing or feeling - or as I suggested previously what has already happened before the video sequence. In old buildings often sound carries in odd ways.

And now we have LAPD already suggesting possible mental issues or an unusual accident. Why would they start with that? Even a trained psychiatrist could not possibly make a diagnosis of Elisa form that video let alone teachers, attorneys, whatever else we all are on WS.


By the way in an earlier post someone said you could get to the roof via the fire escapes from the 15th floor on up and also there was an elevator room somewhere up there (not sure what they meant) and that someone was sometimes living in it - they added "scary". You need a ladder to take up to the top of the tanks. So I think she could have got on to the roof. I also think multiple people could have got her onto the roof not just employees.

I would like to know more about the time she spent in San Diego. And how she learned about the Cecil. Could be their phoney adverts. Could be something else.

"Investigators used body markings to identify her, L.A. police spokesperson Officer Diana Figueroa said late Tuesday" . (from CTV) (I hope her parents get a chance to identify her with their own eyes essential IMO.)

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/missin...oftop-water-tank-lapd-1.1163870#ixzz2LSXZVYtD)

True, you can't officially diagnose a person by watching a video but people who are familiar with certain mental health issues can make a pretty good, educated guess.

But LE's suspicions in that regard shouldn't change the way they investigate. Mentally ill people can be even more vulnerable to predators.