CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #1

[Chorley8]

Not sure I am seeing the same thing some others others are in the video - isn't it possible multiple lights are burnt out just a few working - so we think she is pressing only those buttons?

Is there a 'microphone' below the buttons (see post 566) - or something she could take to be a microphone - usually elevators have something to speak through in case of emergency.

 

[Livvy]

Perhaps she was robbed the first time she went out... hands up while someone searched her hoodie pockets and then thinking it was over, returned to the elevator. So many questions...

 

[InciteRevolution]

Does anyone else think we are seeing this horrible crime take place in this video? The police probably have tons of video of Elisa in the elevator during her stay, but they chose to release this one. I think that she is being attacked at the end, from behind. Her feet are jumping and really unnatural looking (more so than the hand movements) while she is flailing her hands. At 1:53 -2:25 if you watch her legs and feet they are doing very weird jerky movements. Perhaps someone behind her holding her hair or neck... scary as heck! I definatley think she is struggling with someone.

I agree that a horrible crime took place. I disagree that she suspected she was in an iota of danger at the point this video was recorded for a few reasons:

1) She clearly appears to be in a relaxed and playful -- albeit drug-induced -- state (i.e. on a psychedelic or perhaps Molly... people who take E and Molly often move their arms in motions similar to hers while high).

2) When she peeks her head out of the elevator, both times she initially looks to the right, and the aggressive side to side movements suggest that she knew someone was standing near the opening of the door to the left looking at her, likely holding down the buttons to keep the door from closing. She wanted to play with that person, likely attempting to convey that she was frantically looking for someone who was obviously present).

3) When she steps out of the elevator, she does so to the left side, inviting physical contact (likely affectionate in nature) with whoever is standing there keeping the elevator from descending.

 

[dotr]

Could this Cantonese horror flick have given someone the water tank idea?
http://www.hkcinemagic.com/en/movie.asp?id=1648
"Water Tank Murder Mystery (1994"

 

[gitana1]

Are you saying this is standard in all elevators? If so, I beg to differ with you. I've been on the elevators of both large hospitals in my area, as well as other buildings, many times, and the buttons are at waist or stomach height, not chest or chin level.
If you are referring to the elevators at this particular hotel, or even most hotels, then I don't know for certain. The last hotel I stayed at was a few years ago, and I don't really recall where the buttons were located. But I do know about the elevators around here that I am familiar with, so if you mean all elevators, I respectfully disagree.

I should say in general. Perhaps hospitals are different but I'm in court every week and you never have to bend over to reach the buttons.

Also, I see what looks like a row of buttons above the ones she pressed.

Psychotic or no, drugged or no, Elisa was shown on the video trying to go down. Whether or not the roof was accessible by "scary" ladders, I really don't think she suddenly changed her mind and decided to go up.

If I were her family, I would be livid right now at the notion that her death might be ruled misadventure. Everyone who knows her and has spoken of her online paints the picture of a larger-than-life but SOBER personality.

Flip-flops (the footwear she is shown wearing in the elevator) are not great climbing OR swimming footwear.

If you decided to climb, you'd take them off and change shoes, or you'd abandon them by the beginning of the ladder. Maybe they'd fall during your climb (all the way down to the street, or onto a ledge of the building).

However, if someone is carrying you up, the flip-flops are also likely to fall off: and the person carrying you is going to want to cover his tracks and make sure the flip-flops aren't lying around where they fell.

Assuming you got to the top of the roof with your flip-flops intact, you wouldn't jump into the tank IN your flip-flops, would you? No way. Have you ever stepped into a pool while wearing flip-flops? They become serious impediments. If you got to the tank on your own steam, and for some reason wanted to go in (some lunatic idea of making it into your own private pool), you'd kick the flip-flops off, leave them at the side of the tank. Of course, if you got stuck in the tank, the police would find the flip-flops later -- and I assume, since they searched the roof already, they didn't.

Again, though, this is assuming you were alone on the roof -- nobody there to remove the flip-flops as they departed, and left you behind.

In other words, I'm curious: did she have other shoes? And where are the flip-flops we see her wearing in the video?

I haven't seen anything to indicate LE believes she was high and messing around or anything.

How could they even say accident?

Perhaps they have reason to believe she was mentally ill and one possibility is that she climbed into the tanks not knowing what she was doing.

The Find Elisa Lam fb page was started Feb 9 --- a post made that day by admin said be on the look out for Elisa without her glasses....that she didn't have them with her...

How they knew that was never revealed but they must have found them in her room...or somewhere else...???

So, IF she really is - as it seems - blind as a bat without them, how are we to believe she could get all the way up on top of the water tank and open a sealed lid without them...???

:waitasec:

The same way she was wandering around the hotel.

Always a possibility? Laughable if it wasn't so terrible. And yes someone from the family should ID her. Of course it is a terrible task.

Essential because the video appears to have been manipulated, why? And the release of the video is possibly intended to lead things in a certain direction - potentially by people who already knew she was dead.

Everything speaks against this being an accidental death EXCEPT (and then not persuasively IMO) for that few minutes of video - with newspaper articles obligingly stressing she is acting strangely. Yes I think it nearly certain that it is her - but to trust LAPD on this is dangerous IMO. They should ID her themselves, the immediate family - it is ESSENTIAL to do this.

Someone saying they saw a birthmark is not enough - it is not enough typically to ID victims of traffic accidents why accept it here? First things first.

Oh boy, I think it would be horrible to ask a loved one to ID a body that had been decomposing in a water tank for days. In fact, it may not be too possible. But, DNA tests and dental records are available.

 

[Shlock Homes]

They said they were able to identify her body based on markings on her, so my guess is that water damage or decomposition hadn't affected her. But the dribbling for days - what does that mean? Since Monday? Since last week Thursday? Perhaps the killer got nervous when they released the video, so the body was put into the tank to hide it? She may have been kept in someone's apartment on the floor shown in the video.

I don't like it when they are talking about her fighting with depression and that it was possibly some bizarre accident. Come on, an accident is falling into a sewer through a rusty manhole, or falling down stairs. To get into these cistern, you'd have to climb up their side, or at least lower yourself to them from that adjacent rooftop.

My guess is that's where the body was lowered from. Unfortunately, with all those firefighters and other workers walking around, that crime scene was probably contaminated.

No way she would have jumped in and closed the lid. Not even if she was high or drunk. Way too much of a stretch. Her body had to have been placed in there.

People here have mentioned her not having any clothing on. Am I misreading the articles? I don't see any mention of clothing, missing or otherwise. They certainly aren't saying she had the same clothes as seen in the elevator footage.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

Not sure I am seeing the same thing some others others are in the video - isn't it possible multiple lights are burnt out just a few working - so we think she is pressing only those buttons?

Is there a 'microphone' below the buttons (see post 566) - or something she could take to be a microphone - usually elevators have something to speak through in case of emergency.

BBM

There is a "squawker" below the elevator buttons - a speaker for communication. I'm not sure where the emergency button is but the middle button in the second row (up near the lighted display) might be red, which could be the emergency.

FWIW, from what I can see in the video, she hits the buttons seven times going straight down the middle. 14, 10, 7, 4, M (Mezzanine?), B and Hold Door. 14 doesn't light up, which usually means it's the floor you're already on OR it's a restricted access floor. 14 is a guest floor, so we can assume it's accessible... and this place isn't nice enough to have a club level that only certain guests can access.

What I don't see her press is an emergency button, or trying to contact someone for help through the speaker.

The hallway photo posted earlier in this thread is for the 15th floor, and appears to be the same color/decor as the hallway in the video. Perhaps the top floors were done in the same scheme?

 

[danzn16]

Does her family say she is the type of person that would go up on a roof of a hotel? I'm just now coming into this case and don't have the time to read all 24 thread unfortunately I know if I or my sister ended up on a hotel roof my mom would know immediately it was foul play, we just wouldn't do that. What about for Elisa?

 

[Robert White]

Good evening everyone. Specifically joined the website because of my interest in this case (hometown Vancouver). My background is specifically in the areas of international security, as well as critical infrastructure protection. Would love to be able to add my two cents in when I can.

Unfortunately this thread has moved fast, so I am unable to remember what I wanted to debate originally.

However, have we considered body dynamics of transporting the deceased? Dead weight, even of a smaller individual is immensely difficult to handle. From previous pictures, we can see that access to the water tank was likely from the aluminum ladder. I would argue that carrying a body would require above average strength and coordination. I would even go so far to argue one of two things from my experience: Elisa was alive or more than one person was involved in the disposal.

For those who have done military/firemen carries, you can recall that it's difficult, but remains doable because the person is reacting to you. With a dead body, there is no cooperation, and even light weights are exponentially harder to deal with.

Love to hear some feedback on this.

 

[Snoopster]

The alarm system would have rung continuously until it was turned off using a special key, according to the Los Angeles Fire Department.

A sign warning the door is alarmed is posted and it is unclear who had access to the key to shut it off.

Moore said the eight-foot-high tank in which Lam’s body was found after she’d been missing for three weeks had ladders on the outside and hatches without locks on the top. There were no ladders inside the tanks.

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2013/02/20/la-mystery-deepens-hotel-rooftop-where-body-found-had-an-alarm

 

[danzn16]

Just watched the elevator video and it's just weird. Has her family released what they think about it? Is this normal behavior for her? I almost think she is drugged or drunk with her hand movements? Very, very strange. Was the elevator door just opening at the end or was it going to the different levels that she pushed? And why would anyone push all the floors on an elevator?

 

[dotr]

Good evening everyone. Specifically joined the website because of my interest in this case (hometown Vancouver). My background is specifically in the areas of international security, as well as critical infrastructure protection. Would love to be able to add my two cents in when I can.

Unfortunately this thread has moved fast, so I am unable to remember what I wanted to debate originally.

However, have we considered body dynamics of transporting the deceased? Dead weight, even of a smaller individual is immensely difficult to handle. From previous pictures, we can see that access to the water tank was likely from the aluminum ladder. I would argue that carrying a body would require above average strength and coordination. I would even go so far to argue one of two things from my experience: Elisa was alive or more than one person was involved in the disposal.

For those who have done military/firemen carries, you can recall that it's difficult, but remains doable because the person is reacting to you. With a dead body, there is no cooperation, and even light weights are exponentially harder to deal with.

Love to hear some feedback on this.

Welcome to WS Robert White and thanks for a great post!

 

[Deleted member 96356]

Could this Cantonese horror flick have given someone the water tank idea?
http://www.hkcinemagic.com/en/movie.asp?id=1648
"Water Tank Murder Mystery (1994"

Interesting.

Description:
No subtitles. Shot on video. Detectives investigate the murder of, you guessed it, a man whose chopped up body is found in a water tank. The victim proves to be a vile rapist and wife beater.

From the HKMD (an IMDB for Hong Kong cinema):
http://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?id=9423&display_set=eng

(The water tank in question is on top of an apartment building.)

 

[annemc2]

former mental health professional here - (not verified and haven't been back to work since I've had kids just so could be a little rusty) and a few things jump out at me that make me think she is either manic (and responding to internal stimuli) or, as InciteRevolution so eloquently put it, tripping balls. These are aside from the obvious oddities of her looking paranoid at times and the fluid "dancing" movements towards the end.

-the exaggerated gesticulating with the pointer finger as she twists around to push the first sequence of buttons

-the peculiar box-step she performs while going in and out of the elevator - have you ever seen anyone step *backwards* into an elevator? There is all kinds of information about societal elevator norms and stepping into the elevator backwards is just...not really done.

-the pushing of buttons with two hands. Who does this? I can honestly say that even as a kid playing in the elevator I have never used both hands to push buttons (with the exception of maybe the hold button).

I'm not seeing any possible way that she could have ended up in that tank by herself but her mannerisms and behavior are quite bizarre in the video. In fact they seem way more extreme than those of someone who is described as "incredibly outgoing" and possessing a "charismatic personality." This whole thing is just very, very weird.

 

[Robert White]

former mental health professional here - (not verified and haven't been back to work since I've had kids just so could be a little rusty) and a few things jump out at me that make me think she is either manic (and responding to internal stimuli) or, as InciteRevolution so eloquently put it, tripping balls. These are aside from the obvious oddities of her looking paranoid at times and the fluid "dancing" movements towards the end.

-the exaggerated gesticulating with the pointer finger as she twists around to push the first sequence of buttons

-the peculiar box-step she performs while going in and out of the elevator - have you ever seen anyone step *backwards* into an elevator? There is all kinds of information about societal elevator norms and stepping into the elevator backwards is just...not really done.

-the pushing of buttons with two hands. Who does this? I can honestly say that even as a kid playing in the elevator I have never used both hands to push buttons (with the exception of maybe the hold button).

I'm not seeing any possible way that she could have ended up in that tank by herself but her mannerisms and behavior are quite bizarre in the video. In fact they seem way more extreme than those of someone who is described as "incredibly outgoing" and possessing a "charismatic personality." This whole thing is just very, very weird.

I agree with you in regards to the movement. It is very unidirectional and unnatural from the start. The only time we see a break in this is at the 2:28 point where she steps on her left blade and archs her right food over (producing the pop of the sandal which people seem to believe is a third party).

 

[cath999]

As a Psychiatric Nurse with extensive experience I will give you my two cents worth.

IMHO her behaviour is that of someone experiencing psychosis.

1. The "holiday" alone with no fixed plans
2. History of depression - more severe mental illnesses like Schizophrenia can often first present as depression. The stress of school could have brought this on.
3. Her behaviour in the elevator looks to me like someone experiencing paranoid ideation and possibly command hallucinations (voices telling her to do something like press all the buttons). The hiding and peeking out the door is a response to the paranoid thoughts that "someone is out to get her"
4. The wild gesticulating in the corridor to seemingly nobody is a response to internal stimuli - (voices in her head).
5. She probably hid in the water tank to escape her perceived threat. People experiencing psychosis do not make rational plans.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Well, this answers my question about the speed of decomposition. Cold water slows it down significantly, which is probably why they were able to use markings on her body to ID her after all this time (assuming her body was in there since around the time of her disappearance.

http://www.citizendia.org/Decomposition

Likewise a body submerged in water decomposes at half the rate of an exposed body. The rate of decomposition depends on the temperature of the water. Cold water will allow slow decomposition and warm water causes faster decomposition.

 

[Shlock Homes]

I agree with you in regards to the movement. It is very unidirectional and unnatural from the start. The only time we see a break in this is at the 2:28 point where she steps on her left blade and archs her right food over (producing the pop of the sandal which people seem to believe is a third party).

True. Although it doesn't explain why the elevator also behaved in a strange manner as well, as if someone may have been manipulating it. She wasn't playing with the door, so her behaviour may have been in response to someone unseen, perhaps someone she had befriended.

 

[Robert White]

True. Although it doesn't explain why the elevator also behaved in a strange manner as well, as if someone may have been manipulating it. She wasn't playing with the door, so her behaviour may have been in response to someone unseen, perhaps someone she had befriended.

After watching the video a number of times, it is my opinion that she was alone. If you compartmentalize her actions, then I can definitely see how a third party may be present. However, given her strange actions from the moment she entered (starts with the arching of her arm to press the buttons), it seems that it was just a continuum of her behaviour.

I can't explain the elevator, but I know that there are times that my own office elevator won't close. Upon reviewing the video again, when she exits the elevator for the first time, it does not appear that she sees anyone (if this is the theory we were to base ourselves on).

This one is so interpretive:banghead:

 

[Jan]

I can't believe this was any kind of accident or suicide. Some of the articles said she was found nude at the bottom of the water tank. If no clothes were found next to the tank, I don't believe she walked to the roof naked! I also don't believe she climbed the ladder to the water tank and jumped in. The alarm would have gone off and the door to the roof was locked. Could she have been grabbed while she was in the hall shower room taking a shower? The one person said he heard a lot of noise on the floor above him the night she went missing. Also, the flooding could have been from the water being left on. But how would a predator get a naked girl from the 4th floor shower to the roof and wouldn't her clothes and bath supplies be left behind in the shower room? I think someone grabbed her somewhere in the hotel, raped and killed her, and disposed of her body in the water tank--probably a hotel employee who had a key to the roof and knew how to turn off the alarm. But why did no one see her being taken to the roof, and it would have probably taken 2 people to get her into the water tank unless the one was so high on drugs as to have super strength. Maybe someone drugged the girl too. As for the elevator video, I don't know what she was doing but I have seen oriental and Philippine woman talk with their hands in an animated way in everyday conversation and also scoot around quickly in a jerky way different from how most American woman would walk. An example is the Philippine lady who does my hair. She has manerisms similar to what Ellisa was showing as far as the hand gestures and the scooting around quickly. It is possible that Elisa's body was blocking the water and creating the low water pressure. I can imagine how horrified people would feel upon finding that they drank and brushed their teeth and washed with water from the tank Elisa was floating in (or sinking in). I really don't think she went up to the roof in a manic state and did this to herself. I hope the police investigators can unravel what happened before it happens to another young woman.