CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

[hopeitcanhelp]

According to Capt Moore of the Fire Dept, no ladder inside:

from:
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/world/archives/2013/02/20130220-195344.html

So does that mean the hatch was locked when they found it? That would rule out accidental death or suicide, so I doubt it, otherwise they would have mentioned it.

As for Interpol: it's an hotel, they might be looking for another tourist who may have left the US since.

The interesting thing about the graffiti to me is that it indicates that people do get up there unauthorized and play around.

There is already a video of people fooling on the roof, from a year ago, so that's certain.

 

[Marlon]

The hatch was not locked.
"Moore said the eight-foot-high tank in which Lam's body was found after she'd been missing for three weeks had ladders on the outside and hatches without locks on the top. There were no ladders inside the tanks."

So does that mean the hatch was locked when they found it? That would rule out accidental death or suicide, so I doubt it, otherwise they would have mentioned it.

As for Interpol: it's a tourist hotel, they might be looking for another tourist who may have left the US since.



There is already a video of people fooling on the roof, from a year ago, so that's certain.

 

[dotr]

Again I find it near impossible that someone would have managed to bring the body up there on their own. It would seem more likely that she went there herself, and if she didn't go in the tank herself, someone killed her on top of there and put her inside.

Now, a seemingly stupid theory, but what if.....

Elisa didn't want to take a shower in the communal ones, out of fear, so she ended up thinking should wash herself in there?

I know that sounds like an incredibly dumb idea, doubt anyone would think of that or do it, but I don't know. Just trying to figure out how she may have gotten there.

Did the police ever reveal if her clothes were found on the roof?

Actually wondered the same thing, thinking of E outside elevator making the swimming-like motions. Mind you, would not be too surprised if that was an activity that partying teenagers or desperate homeless might get up to.
Not likely, but possible imo, like every other crazy scenario for this seemingly inexplicable death.

 

[Robert White]

Just spoke with a friend who was a member Singapore's Special Operation Command (SOC) in regards to his thoughts on the video.

Keep in mind, SOC isn't investigative LE, however it adds another professional perspective on what little visual evidence we have.

SOC Perspective: Notes that the body language heavily leans to communication with someone or something, but emphasizes that he believes there is no one there. Individual would not have permitted multiple entries into the elevator He doesn't see any distinction in her body language that shows fear. He notes that if he is wrong, and there was someone there, then she has had previous interaction with that individual/individuals. He states, "...if someone was after me, I'd be on my phone, running the hell out of there, shouting for help..." He states that even if someone was there (which he does not believe), then she (a) wasn't threatened in any manner and (b) was familiar with that person.

Keep in mind my friend doesn't know the details, so doesn't know about the phone etc.

Edit: Just told me that his mother is a clinical psychologist, so he'll update us when he speaks to her.

 

[gitana1]

Hi everyone,

I've been following this case on Websleuths for the last couple of days and finally took the courage to register an account to discuss more. Please pardon me if I go wrong somewhere.
IMHO, I feel that she was under some kinda of substance influence or suffering from a mental problem. If we were to recall her video, the 2nd time she went back into the lift.. She was pressing the buttons repeatedly down the middle row top to bottom top to bottom. A person who is in stress and fear wouldn't do that... they'd be pounding on the buttons, frantically trying to figure out which button closes the door WHILE looking out of the lift for the perpetrator. EL wasn't even looking at the door... She was just staring into the buttons like almost dazed...going top button to bottom button... for 3 times.

I'm inclined on the fact that someone who works at Cecil Hotel spotted her being delusional and disoriented and thus took advantage of her.

As a Chinese with deep superstitions... My roots will say she was possessed and finished off... supernaturally.

RIP Elisa. Justice will prevail~!

Snipped for space and bolded by me. Welcome! Thanks for your insightful posts. I agree. It looks as if Elisa was very systematic, pressing the buttons one by one down the rows with the index fingers of both hands. Very precise and careful.

This poi has been bothering students , could EL have encountered him? http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8957301
WESTWOOD, LOS ANGELES (KABC) -- UCLA campus police on Wednesday released a sketch of a man who tried to sexually assault a female student on campus last week.

On Jan. 7, the student was walking eastbound between UCLA Parking Structure 9 and the Engineering IV building when the suspect approached her from behind and threatened to sexually assault her. He grabbed the victim, but she was able to break free and get away. The man then fled the scene on foot.

The suspect was described as a white man between 30 to 35 years old with a thin build and short black hair, standing about 5 feet 10 inches to 6 feet tall. He was wearing a gray hooded sweatshirt and blue jeans.

Students Luzdelia Caballero and Azeb Guesh say they're making sure to walk in groups

Great sleuthing! UCLA is 14 miles away but it's close enough.

Hi everyone. I'm new here. Like many other people, I've really been touched by this story and I hope the case will be solved soon so that her family and friends have closure.

Anyway. there's something that has really been bothering me since yesterday:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/canadian-tourist-found-dead-in-hotel-water-tank-accident-possible-1.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lanowblog+%28L.A.+Now%29

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/autopsy-results-for-elisa-lam-inconclusive-more-tests-needed-1.1165941

When I hear about a young woman found dead in a water tank on the top of a sketchy hotel in a bad part of LA, the first thing I think of is "murder". Yet, the LAPD seems to be confident that it could very well be an accident. Why is that? I'm thinking that a crucial detail has not been made public. A detail that could possibly be embarrassing for the LAPD. The only thing I can think of is this: the lid was open all along since february 1st. It was open when the roof was searched and yet they didn't notice.

Of course, it doesn't rule out the possibility of foul play, but it greatly increases the odds of an accidental death.

Other possible clues that would point to an accidental death:
-Prescription or illicit drugs found in her hotel room.
-Strange letters or drawing indicating a possible psychotic episode.
-An history of sleepwalking.
-A suicide note

Without any of these, how could anyone ever consider her death to be accidental?

Welcome! I;m not sure about the feeling that something could be embarrassing to the police. I can see how they could miss an open hatch because water tanks don;t seem like the first place to look. Anyhow, good insights here.

I;m thinking other things that could point to a possible accident is the video footage of Elisa which many feel indicates psychosis, and if they haven't uncovered any evidence via cameras or witnesses or evidence on the body, etc., that Elisa was with someone else or attacked by someone.

If, for example, they found her clothes in her room, coupled with her mental health history and her behavior in the video, they might feel, in the absence of information pointing to a perp., that there was an accident due to psychosis.

But they could be actively investigating someone. The fact that they couldn;t determine cause of death kind of makes me lean toward murder. If it was an accidental drowning, I think that would show in her lungs. But if she was placed in the water after being suffocated, for example, it would be hard to determine cause of death. I think. I;m not an expert in these things but I believe evidence of strangulation would still be there and there was no evidence of gun shot wounds or stab wounds. No clear evidence of drowning so if toxicology comes back with nothing, I would think suffocation.

Wait... someone mentioned she might have a seizure disorder? A simple focal seizure could very well explain her behavior in the elevator. Simple focal (or simple partial) seizures can cause hallucinations, delusions or what are basically emotional flashbacks.

Someone mentioned that her relatives brain was tested due to seizure disorder, not that Elisa may have had one. She apparently took Lamictal, which is used to treat seizures but it's also used to treat mood disorders like bi polar disorder.

I'm starting to think that maybe we are reading too much into the video. Obviously it was released for a reason, but I think it's distracting us from the main issue: how did she get into the water tank and how long was she there?

After looking at all the photos on the board (thanks for posting, those were helpful), I doubt she made it up there alone. There are easier ways to commit suicide (including simply jumping off the roof if she had gotten up there) especially with someone who has access to psych meds.

What I truly want to know is what did she do while in LA? Did she post to Facebook that she was sightseeing? It looked like she did when she was in San Diego. When I travel, I tend to check out local restaurants and chat up bartenders, baristas, etc. Did anyone see her around the neighborhood other than the bookstore employee? If she was so outgoing, someone must have remembered talking to her. The hotel has free breakfast, did any of the other guests meet her?

So many unanswered questions to this case. I'm hoping someone comes forward with some information soon.

She may not have been trying to commit suicide. She may have been trying to hide.

I found a type of resource for roof top water tanks. Apparently, people can enter the tanks to clean them.

http://cooperator.com/articles/202/1/Rooftop-Water-Tanks/Page1.html

Thanks for this info. It is helpful to know!

A lot of Tumblr users dump posts into their queue for future reblogging. You can set up your queue to auto-empty throughout regular intervals each day until it runs out. Many people carry hundreds of reblogs in their queue and let it sort of trickle out over time, randomly throwing things in there when they catch their fancy. There are a couple of her posts that don't fit the regular posting interval that would be indicative of the queue function, but those could be explained by her manually queuing up the posts. (Sometimes, I'll schedule something for a specific day where the post might have meaning...or sometimes, I'll throw an arbitrary future date on it because I want to refer back to it later, and then forget I had assigned that date until it publishes. )

Can I just say that I feel very old suddenly? I;m so out of the loop with "the technologies" as I call it. :blushing:

Curious, why the assumption that the perpetrator(s) is specifically male?

Because statistically, overwhelmingly so, women do not stalk and murder young, vacationing girls they encounter, and they do not then stuff their bodies in water tanks (which would take some strength to do what with the lifting and all).

Women tend to kill romantic partners and children, usually their own. This kind of murder is bound to be by a male. That's the profile.

I'm not entirely sure whether or not this has been posted already, but if you're looking for a preview of what might be found in the toxicology report, this post from the tumblr page, listing the medications she was taking as of April 2012, is probably as close as anyone will get for 6-8 weeks:

http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/22304102762/more-its-still-odd-to-me-that-people-are-so

I wrestled ethically with whether or not information like this should be posted, but the general theme of her written tumblr postings are that she actually wants random strangers on the internet to read details of her private life, apparently since they might listen and understand better where she is coming from than certain figures from her daily life. She says she is nevertheless wary of the dangers on the internet.

The cocktail of medications was prescribed by a psychiatrist, and therefore it can be assumed that individuals can safely consume it while under the supervision of a doctor, which she seemed to be. That said, any additional alcohol or drugs she may have consumed willingly or unwillingly the night she disappeared could certainly interact unpredictably and severely with these medications. Even more so since she says numerous times on the tumblr how she is proud of having abstained from drugs and alcohol, unlike her peers, and an unexperienced user would not be able to cope nearly as well in that situation as someone experienced in substance use.

Thank you for this very important information.

It seems the discovery of Elisa's body has not inspired the media to investigate what happened to her, but to publish a stream of nonsense trivializing her death. Sadly, Elisa is becoming a ghoulish punchline, her story doomed to endless Facebook re-posting with innumerable "Eeeeewwwww!" comments attached.

"Body found in tank decomposed..."
"..Put guests in danger of getting nasty diseases..."
"Water turned black where Elisa Lam died"
"Six ways to tell if you're staying in a murder hotel"
"Water in LA hotel tank with dead body won't cause illness..."

These are all actual headlines from the top results from an "Elisa Lam" Google News search. I'm sure her family and friends are being understandably tight-lipped and there probably isn't much else to write a story on, but I can't help but wonder if the headlines would be so brusque were Elisa's hair blonde and her eyes blue.

Perhaps the media would have more of a sense of urgency if Elisa was Caucasian. But thankfully, we are not relying on the media to investigate what happened to Elisa. And I have no reason to believe LE is doing a poor job.

Originally Posted by CuriousB View Post
OK, just an outside-the-box thought here.

"In the tumbler entry talking about the new guy she was interested in:

http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/p...erested-in-but

She mentioned the that he plays L4D as part of what makes him "very very very right". Is that Left 4 Dead? It seems so completely odd that she would mention this, amidst the facts that he plays bass, wears bowties and has a good smile. Was she a gamer? Did she mention video games in any other posts?

Could some combination of drugs / lack of meds / lack of sleep / lack of glasses have caused her to at one point think she's in some video game escaping zombies, and to decide to hide in the cistern?
(BLOG ENTRY REQUOTED FROM THAT TUMBLR ACCOUNT WHICH WAS POSTED A MONTH AGO BY ELISA LAM)


So there’s a guy I’m interested in,

Would Elisa Lam be referencing this person?


Oh, and Elisa Lam mentioned this mystery guy played a double bass guitar as well?

Well this guy plays a bass guitar as well.
Comment?

Snipped for space and rules. I just wanted to mention that this is a double bass: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/Bassdiagram.jpg/300px-Bassdiagram.jpg

This is a double bass guitar:https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...w8wcpQGGyi-JlnWNhbjf0IWJ_8UgomEbCXGVDWgY5vsz-

And here is proof that people were able to get up the rooftop, past the locked rooftop door that was secure with an alarm as LAPD and Cecil Hotel Management has said.

By the way, that footage was taken on February 14th, 2012. Now the question remains, how did these people get up the rooftops? Were they guests who had hotel rooms that had the windows situated next to the fire escape, for example, like this lady? Fast forward to 2:03 in that video to see the fire escape window in her hotel room

Thanks for that. That's important.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Another picture shows a hose that appears to be coming out of the tank. It's possible water was pumped out of the tank before the body was removed, making the depth of the water in the picture taken after her removal significantly lower than it had been. There have been no substantive reports on the position, condition, or clothing status of the body when it was found, although there are plenty of posts, tweets, and articles asserting such evidence without a quote from LE or someone at the rescue scene. Some of the posts here have lead to others accepting them as new facts; they include things like, "This guy on Twitter knew about it first and he said...." or "This network broke the story before she was identified and they said...", but none of it is backed up by links.

As far as the autopsy goes, the body was likely sitting in water for three weeks. There may have been signs of drowning that the coroner deemed could potentially have manifested themselves after her time of death, during her time in the tank. So they are waiting for the toxicology tests to see if those might be more conclusive before closing the book on how Elisa died.

I can't imagine the fire dept. being able to remove the body unless they drained most of the water. I seem to remember a picture where a hole had been cut at the base of the tank. Anyone remember?

 

[branwynbreeze]

It appears the search with dogs was early on.

This article is dated 2/20/13

"Los Angeles police investigators searched the roof of the Cecil with the aid of dogs when Lam was reported missing about three weeks ago. Lopez said he didn't know if the tanks were examined."


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-body-water-tower-20130220,0,3005517.story

Thanks! I understand basic mechanics of scent dogs training competitive hunting dogs, just trying to figure out what conditions are plausible to obviate scent on roof.

If it did not happen on roof, perhaps she was in one of the rooms not searched by police. If that's the case, how many might be involved? I cannot see one person doing it. Yes, it could be done, but not easily.

 

[LaborDayRN]

This article contains quotes from Sgt. Lopez

"Lopez said the hotel has four cisterns on its roof that are each about 10 feet tall, 4.5 feet wide and hold at least 1,000 gallons of water pumped up from city pipes.

Lam's body was found Tuesday morning at the bottom of one cistern that was about three-quarters full of water, Lopez said.

The opening at the top of the cistern is too small to accommodate firefighters and equipment, so they had to cut a hole in the storage tank to recover Lam's body."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...-where-missing-canadian-woman-was-found-dead/

and...

CBSLA - the news outlet based in Los Angeles first broke the news live via aerial coverage on the rooftops, reporting a maintenance worker discovering Elisa Lam's body in the water tank (they didn't identify her body as Elisa in the beginning, just said a woman's body) and said that the body inside was nude, and floating face up in the 3/4 full water tank.

** sorry don't have a link for the last one, but I'll look

lol....I should have read ahead a little.

 

[SCHMAE]

Just spoke with a friend who was a member Singapore's Special Operation Command (SOC) in regards to his thoughts on the video.

Keep in mind, SOC isn't investigative LE, however it adds another professional perspective on what little visual evidence we have.

SOC Perspective: Notes that the body language heavily leans to communication with someone or something, but emphasizes that he believes there is no one there. Individual would not have permitted multiple entries into the elevator He doesn't see any distinction in her body language that shows fear. He notes that if he is wrong, and there was someone there, then she has had previous interaction with that individual/individuals. He states, "...if someone was after me, I'd be on my phone, running the hell out of there, shouting for help..." He states that even if someone was there (which he does not believe), then she (a) wasn't threatened in any manner and (b) was familiar with that person.

Keep in mind my friend doesn't know the details, so doesn't know about the phone etc.

Edit: Just told me that his mother is a clinical psychologist, so he'll update us when he speaks to her.

BBM Interesting !

 

[BuzzieCat]

So does that mean the hatch was locked when they found it? That would rule out accidental death or suicide, so I doubt it, otherwise they would have mentioned it.

As for Interpol: it's an hotel, they might be looking for another tourist who may have left the US since.



There is already a video of people fooling on the roof, from a year ago, so that's certain.

Yes, but it just shows that the video of people on the roof was not an isolated incident. Which I thought was interesting.

 

[Robert White]

Because statistically, overwhelmingly so, women do not stalk and murder young, vacationing girls they encounter, and they do not then stuff their bodies in water tanks (which would take some strength to do what with the lifting and all).

Women tend to kill romantic partners and children, usually their own. This kind of murder is bound to be by a male. That's the profile.

Snipped for context.

While it may be "statistically" and "overwhelmingly" so, that certainly does not mean there cannot be a break in statistics. Profiles are there to guide and enhance, but not looking out of that realm at this stage and this level is not sound judgement.

Not saying your wrong, but everyone should keep an open mind.

Edit: Look at the Karla Homolka case. Was a Canadian murder sensation in the 90s. She was involved in the murders and rapes of her sister and other victims by her husband.

 

[tapu]

Snipped for context.

While it may be "statistically" and "overwhelmingly" so, that certainly does not mean there cannot be a break in statistics. Profiles are there to guide and enhance, but not looking out of that realm at this stage and this level is not sound judgement.

Not saying your wrong, but keep everyone should keep an open mind.

Edit: Look at the Karla Homolka case. Was a Canadian murder sensation in the 90s. She was involved in the murders and rapes of her sister and other victims by her husband.

I think it's pretty sound to "stay in the realm" unless something, anything, indicates it might be a woman. I get keeping an open mind, but focused, reasoned thought has something going for it.

God, not to imply that you don't post focused, reasoned thoughts. I'm just suggesting that basing suggestions on some evidence rather than on just anything that could ever in the world happen has a lot of merit.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Snipped for context.

While it may be "statistically" and "overwhelmingly" so, that certainly does not mean there cannot be a break in statistics. Profiles are there to guide and enhance, but not looking out of that realm at this stage and this level is not sound judgement.

Not saying your wrong, but everyone should keep an open mind.

Edit: Look at the Karla Homolka case. Was a Canadian murder sensation in the 90s. She was involved in the murders and rapes of her sister and other victims by her husband.

The Rachel Barber case, here in Australia.

http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0011/th001130.htm

 

[Robert White]

I think it's pretty sound to "stay in the realm" unless something, anything, indicates it might be a woman. I get keeping an open mind, but focused, reasoned thought has something going for it.

God, not to imply that you don't post focused, reasoned thoughts. I'm just suggesting that basing suggestions on some evidence rather than on just anything that could ever in the world happen has a lot of merit.

Don't worry, I won't take offense. However, those of you stating that there is evidence it was a male that we have access to is wrong (unless I've missed something). What we have is a historical context of murders against women. Is that solid enough to say that a young, traveling woman has been murdered by a man? Not to me it doesn't. And my professional background doesn't put me any closer to a right answer, but it does allow me to under threats, violence, use of force, control and compliance, etc issues much more so than other people.

What evidence is there that a female was not implicitly involved in this murder? Because if I'm missing something, and I can change my opinion, and revamp my professional experience to help, then show me.

I dont' argue the statistics, because I fully agree with them. But if your ruling it out, then there needs to be quantifiable proof as to why, and not just because there's a historical context to do so.

 

[hopeitcanhelp]

Hiding in my opinion can be ruled out if she was found naked.

Suicide also makes little sense for various reasons already mentioned.

Accident is not impossible, if she intentionally went in the tank, but it seems like a completely illogical thing to do unless she really didn't want to take a shower in the communal ones, where she would have had the chance to have one before anyway. If she didn't shower once since she arrived because she didn't trust the showers, or didn't want to do it anymore because of something that happened, you'd think she would have been able to wait an extra day since she was leaving the next day.

So all in all, I don't think there is any justification for her ending up in the tank beyond foul play. But I also think it would be extremely difficult for someone to take the body up there, unless she was already on the top part of the maintenance building above the tanks when she was killed/incapacitated, which again seems far fetched. I guess someone strong with a very big bag would have been able to bring her up there, or more than one person.

The mental issues is really exaggerated, everyone is taking pills these days and they all have every imaginable side effects either when you take them or if you stop taking them.

 

[esuma]

Looking at that graffiti picture, the words look like they were written recently

 

[BunnyHop]

It appears the search with dogs was early on.

This article is dated 2/20/13

"Los Angeles police investigators searched the roof of the Cecil with the aid of dogs when Lam was reported missing about three weeks ago. Lopez said he didn't know if the tanks were examined."


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-body-water-tower-20130220,0,3005517.story

I don't understand why the dogs picked up no scent, if she had been on the roof.

 

[tapu]

Don't worry, I won't take offense. However, those of you stating that there is evidence it was a male that we have access to is wrong (unless I've missed something). What we have is a historical context of murders against women. Is that solid enough to say that a young, traveling woman has been murdered by a man? Not to me it doesn't. And my professional background doesn't put me any closer to a right answer, but it does allow me to under threats, violence, use of force, control and compliance, etc issues much more so than other people.

What evidence is there that a female was not implicitly involved in this murder? Because if I'm missing something, and I can change my opinion, and revamp my professional experience to help, then show me.

I dont' argue the statistics, because I fully agree with them. But if your ruling it out, then there needs to be quantifiable proof as to why, and not just because there's a historical context to do so.

No, no, good sir. Not like that. You don't look for evidence that a female was NOT involved. You ask, is there any evidence yet to indicate it might have been a female rather than a male? NO. Is there any evidence that it might have been a male rather than a female? YES, statistics and physical reasoning: overwhelming stats that males are more commonly perps; physical considerations like average strength/abilities of a male over female w.r.t. overwhelming a female and getting the body disposed of in the manner here.

Let me clarify: I am NOT ruling out a female. I am just not focusing on that kind of extreme outlier when there is nothing at all to indicate it's worth pursuing.

 

[BunnyHop]

Just spoke with a friend who was a member Singapore's Special Operation Command (SOC) in regards to his thoughts on the video.

Keep in mind, SOC isn't investigative LE, however it adds another professional perspective on what little visual evidence we have.

SOC Perspective: Notes that the body language heavily leans to communication with someone or something, but emphasizes that he believes there is no one there. Individual would not have permitted multiple entries into the elevator He doesn't see any distinction in her body language that shows fear. He notes that if he is wrong, and there was someone there, then she has had previous interaction with that individual/individuals. He states, "...if someone was after me, I'd be on my phone, running the hell out of there, shouting for help..." He states that even if someone was there (which he does not believe), then she (a) wasn't threatened in any manner and (b) was familiar with that person.

Keep in mind my friend doesn't know the details, so doesn't know about the phone etc.

Edit: Just told me that his mother is a clinical psychologist, so he'll update us when he speaks to her.

I saw this elsewhere:

"To me the video looks like she is playing elevator tag with someone in the other elevator. Based on the color of the wall, I think she is floor 15 and working her way down. Her body language is playful, she jumps out to catch her playmate messing with the elevator buttons. She finally gets frustrated with the elevator and wanders off, perhaps to the roof since she was already on 15.
I can't speculate on her gesticulating - trying to make the sensors work? At the very end she appears be doing a little dance, she does not appear frightened in any part of the video that I can see."

thoughts?

 

[Sillybilly]

I don't understand why the dogs picked up no scent, if she had been on the roof.

Dogs track by scent "cones" (comprised of skin cells shed by all of us as we go places). IF Elisa was enclosed in plastic bags for example, and taken to the rooftop, her scent wouldn't be there.