CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3

[morphee]

R

What if Elisa wants to go to the roof to watch the skyline. She opens the fire exit window but it makes some noise. Some cranky old guy comes out of his room, asks her what she's doing there and tells her to go back to her floor or else he'll call security. Elisa heads back to the elevator without wanting to actually use it. She's just pretending to leave the floor. That would explain why it almost seems like she's acting when she first enters the elevator. Her bluff doesn't work and the guy doesn't go back to his room. She argues with him. She's frustrated with his stubbornness. Finally, she convinces him to let her go.

---

A detail that has been bothering me: Just after the petting of the imaginary dog, a few frames are missing. You can see that her right arm suddenly changes position.

Interesting interpretation, and highly plausible. Perhaps she had wanted to do so (her last night in LA and having seen evidence on the net of other people successfully doing so) go upto the roof. Maybe she didn't do it consciously but in a sleepwalking state. She may have made it there.

I still feel in my gut that it's foul play, but I could see how in that state and in this scenario, it might by some tiny chance, be an accident.

 

[Doruk]

Here you go

http://southwestpaddler.com/docs/hypothermia.html

Scroll down to water temp exposure chart

What was the temperature in the tank for the day they believed EL passed?

 

[ThinkHard]

I believe it didn't start as a mugging. It started as a "who the heck are you". I believe she was on the 14th floor by mistake (possibly mixing 4 with 14), and she went to the wrong room, thinking it was her room. The occupant to that room flipped out when someone tried to enter, she he followed her to the elevator to find out who the heck she is.

He finds out she's just a girl, so he then mugs her and tells her to leave. She doesn't leave, so the suspect realizes that this girl knows his face and where he lives, and while he didn't really take anything from her, he did pull a gun on her, so he then marches her to the tank and orders her inside.

I know, it seems a very petty reason to kill someone, but you need to realize the area she was in. If you go to a ghetto and start trying to enter people's homes, chances are someone is eventually going to kill you.

I think she made a simple mistake, and she went to the wrong room, and the occupant of that room killed her, because the occupant was your typical resident in the Cecil Hotel, meaning he was mentally ill, a drug addict, or both.

While its an interesting theory. I just don't see an occupant of a hotel, even if he is a permenant resident, because after all it is a hotel where they are used to all sorts of people around, coming and going...flipping out because some one giggled his door and walked away. I'd think when they saw it was this little Asian girl, they would let it be.

I also don't see how someone goes from being annoyed someone giggled his door to, I'm going to put you in a water tank. Presumably and by accounts of other guests these characters have gotten away with shenaninigans before....so why kill a tourist over giggling your door.

I mean its fine to theororize at will, that's what this is about. But I just don't see the strength in this theory the way you do.

 

[LI-LI]

I really don't understand the importance to some, of her not wearing glasses. She's plastered all over Google without glasses, even at her graduation.

Then she must had contacts on those photos. If she had contacts instead of glasses on the way she came to 14 floor, why dip down to look at the elevator panel?

Well that means she had such a bad vision and couldn't live without her glasses on. Then why went to unusual places without her glasses? Then she must be asleep without her glasses and sleep walking all the way to 14 floor?

Did I make it right?

 

[ThinkHard]

Actually your chart says between 60-70 degrees Fahrenheit, expected survival time in water is between 2-40 hours.

But I said btw 50-60, (as an example)

I don't know btw day in night in LA what the average temp is. So I went with guessing it was likely closer on average to btw 50-60 at night in LA in FEb. and thus gave the approximate survival times for that temp range.

 

[Figuring]

Please bear with me I am looking into the Toronto trip for a reason can't quite get to here yet:

Anyone confirm that the Loving Hunt at 953 Eglinton Avenue West is closed - and the other one and Spadina and Richmond is open correct?

The two places in Canada the restaurants for the group ("cult" according to some though it seems benign enough) are in Toronto and Vancouver? She had been in both places last from Dec. on and MAY have been heading to a organic farm related to the group? Also staying in the "organic" hostel I mentioned in previous post.

I live in Toronto and can confirm they're closed, for a while now. Eglinton Ave is nowhere near where she stayed here (Backpackers hotel), and nowhere near where she shopped which are the financial district and annex area. It would be really doubtful that a tourist would seek out that stretch of Eglinton. I don't know what you mean about Spadina and Richmond but can reply if you clarify. I work near there. There's an organic restaurant there, but it is not owned by a cult! (It's called Fresh)

I havent followed this cult theory too much, as I happen to think it is a bit of a stretch... but I would say (with respect) to be careful linking WOOFFing with cults though (or linking cults with organic food?)-- WOOFFING is a widespread, longstanding practice on many conventional farms. Farms get free help in exchange for giving out board. For the WOOFFer it provides free accommodation and food and fraternity with other young travellers. It's something like tree planting, which alot of people here in Canada go off to do. A kind of grown up 'camp'. I can see a cults using this to lure someone I suppose, but the vast majority of WOOFFers are on plain old family or company run farms.

I take this idea as A) as something more of an altruistic notion she had--wanting to do something 'useful' or 'good' while travelling and/or B) to meet other young people who weren't only interested in clubs etc, as she seemed not to really be into nightlife(on her blog).

 

[Ravenz]

Even with water temp btw 50-60 degrees she would have reached hypothermia and died within 1-6 hrs.

If full body immersion did not occur?
i.e. water only reaches up to thighs or waist level?
This could be a different situation from falling into a river (or ocean) during winter where ones feet doesn't touch the bottom..

Interestingly, I also came across this:
"Twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss.[21][22]"

 

[FutzBucket]

While its an interesting theory. I just don't see an occupant of a hotel, even if he is a permenant resident, because after all it is a hotel where they are used to all sorts of people around, coming and going...flipping out because some one giggled his door and walked away. I'd think when they saw it was this little Asian girl, they would let it be.

I also don't see how someone goes from being annoyed someone giggled his door to, I'm going to put you in a water tank. Presumably and by accounts of other guests these characters have gotten away with shenaninigans before....so why kill a tourist over giggling your door.

I mean its fine to theororize at will, that's what this is about. But I just don't see the strength in this theory the way you do.

Yes, I'm used to people thinking this. "What, so, he killed her for knocking on his door? C'mon, man, who would do that?"

I'd tell you who would do that, your typical resident at the Cecil Hotel.

The reason why you're having such a problem understanding this, is because you're sane, and you have a concept to the value of another person's life. These people typically don't. Your typical person living in the Skid Row area has absolutely no concept to the value of another person's life.

Skid Row is filled with paranoid schizophrenics, drug addicts, and criminals.

 

[morphee]

Wondering if anyone saw this reader comment at LA TIMES - SO names are mentioned and mods can clip, I just didn't want to alter the message:


"Nate Bentley · Follow
<modsnip>

Thanks, this could be very important. 4 minutes of soundless video and an armchair imagination cannot come close to this personal account, if true. It sounds legit. I'll try to find the original LA Times article you refer to, but it would be great if you could post a link.

 

[Borris]

Then she must had contacts on those photos. If she had contacts instead of glasses on the way she came to 14 floor, why dip down to look at the elevator panel?

Well that means she had such a bad vision and couldn't live without her glasses on. Then why went to unusual places without her glasses? Then she must be asleep without her glasses and sleep walking all the way to 14 floor?

Did I make it right?

She 'dipped down' because she's drunk, or in a mental state. She had her reasons. But she doesn't 'dip down' the second time. So, according to your storyline, while she sleepwalks, her vision is sometimes good, and sometimes so bad she can't live without her glasses.

 

[Ravenz]

If full body immersion did not occur?
i.e. water only reaches up to thighs or waist level?
This could be a different situation from falling into a river (or ocean) during winter where ones feet doesn't touch the bottom..

Interestingly, I also came across this:
"Twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss.[21][22]"

- I also assume that this type of undressing does not occur when one goes overboard into the ocean while sailing

To continue, if said person isn't submerged entirely, water level is mostly around waist (fluctuates) and temperaure 60-70F: what would be the survival time? if said person cannot escape?
- and attempts by shouting or banging on water tank does not result in anyone noticing and thus, rescue?

 

[CuriousB]

She 'dipped down' because she's drunk, or in a mental state. She had her reasons. But she doesn't 'dip down' the second time. So, according to your storyline, while she sleepwalks, her vision is sometimes good, and sometimes so bad she can't live without her glasses.

She didn't dip down the second time because the buttons she meant to press were already lit and visible to her.

 

[Murakami]

I just found her exact Tumblr post clearing up the "Mr. Mexican and Mr. Italy" problems..

http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/41581697593/im-going-out-tonight-i-really-hope-no-creeper

 

[ThinkHard]

What was the temperature in the tank for the day they believed EL passed?

Via weather underground

On the 31st the mean was 63, with a low of 47

On feb 1 the mean was 63, with a low of 50

Lows of course are usually evening, overnight early morning temps, so we can assume the temps for when Elisa's disappeared would have been btw roughly 50-60 degrees, just as I'd guess.

 

[ThinkHard]

If full body immersion did not occur?
i.e. water only reaches up to thighs or waist level?
This could be a different situation from falling into a river (or ocean) during winter where ones feet doesn't touch the bottom..

Interestingly, I also came across this:
"Twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss.[21][22]"

That is interesting, but if we are going to be technical ( just for fun) certain fabrics when wet (ie cotton) actually suck heat away from the body and decrease body temperature quicker then being nude. So if you ever find yourself in a hypothermic state, you do not want to be wearing wet cotton. Fun fact wool,and polar fleece are two of only a very few things that will keep you warm when wet.

 

[OCSlacker]

Then she must had contacts on those photos. If she had contacts instead of glasses on the way she came to 14 floor, why dip down to look at the elevator panel?

Well that means she had such a bad vision and couldn't live without her glasses on. Then why went to unusual places without her glasses? Then she must be asleep without her glasses and sleep walking all the way to 14 floor?

Did I make it right?

I am blind as a bat without my glasses and at times if I have already taken my contacts off I will still go about trying to find my way. Granted not often, but if I were thinking hey, just gonna go down a couple of floors and grab a soda I might do that rather than go through my packed clothes looking for my glasses.. I've actually been in a similar circumstance were I thought the soda machine was down the hall and ended up three floors above my room only to still not find a machine and go back to my room in frustration. Granted it went from a 1 minute down the hall to 5-10 minutes roaming a hotel, not what I planned but that happens. I don't like not being able to see perfectly but I choose to do that rather than hassle with my packed luggage or bother with putting contacts on again..

 

[Xavier]

One thing I remember from an earlier report, if it is correct. The door to the roof has an alarm. How did she get on the roof unless someone with access took her there. I'm guessing there was foul play and it was someone who works there.




And consider the most important maintenance equipment facilities in a hotel are the power and water lines

So how does EL get into the water tanks if they're tightly locked?

These are usually locked securely, accessible by Master keys

Who has access to the Master keys"

1. Security
2. Hotel Manager on duty
3. Maintenance

Who has the most Freedom to walk the hotel at all times?

Security

IMHO this crime was by a hotel employee with access to keys

 

[Doruk]

Via weather underground

On the 31st the mean was 63, with a low of 47

On feb 1 the mean was 63, with a low of 50

Lows of course are usually evening, overnight early morning temps, so we can assume the temps for when Elisa's disappeared would have been btw roughly 50-60 degrees, just as I'd guess.

Don't forget the variation in individual temperature tolerance thresholds.

Do you know how the medical examiner assesses death by hypothermia?

 

[Figuring]

Thanks, this could be very important. 4 minutes of soundless video and an armchair imagination cannot come close to this personal account, if true. It sounds legit. I'll try to find the original LA Times article you refer to, but it would be great if you could post a link.

Ah, I should have included it! Such a scary story. Would like to know more but would not dare ask him... maybe someone else here will!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...tinues-to-draw-attention-in-china-canada.html

Edited to add that this link is to a chilling comment on an article at LA TIMES about the case, by someone named Nate describing his experience with residents at the Cecil. Scroll down to the bottom of the article to read...

 

[Doruk]

One thing I remember from an earlier report, if it is correct. The door to the roof has an alarm. How did she get on the roof unless someone with access took her there. I'm guessing there was foul play and it was someone who works there.




And consider the most important maintenance equipment facilities in a hotel are the power and water lines

These are usually locked securely, accessible by Master keys

Who has access to the Mater keys"

1. Security
2. Hotel Manager on duty
3. Maintenance

How has the most Freedom to walk the hotel at all times?

Security

IMHO this crime was by a hotel employee with access to keys

Didn't they say roof was also accessible by fire escape?