CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #4

[jetsetsam]

There have been a few thoughts expressed on this forum that she was alive when she went into the tank.

Assuming there was a perpetrator, and she didn't kill herself, I think this is a very unlikely scenario.

I have to believe that whoever put her in the tank knew about the tank before hand.

I really can't believe that someone killed her, scrambled around the hotel looking for a place to put the body, went up to the roof and "Excellent, I'll put the body in a water tank that I found by accident. That has a ladder, and a lid that isn't locked".

Someone who knew about the tank before the killing would also know that the roof was relatively easy to access, not just by them, but by staff testing the water, graffiti artists, young guys looking at the view and balancing on beams, drinking beer and generally hanging out.

I don't think Elisa was alive when she was put into the tank, even if she was unconscious, because the perpetrator would be concerned that she would make noise after he left and possibly alert other visitors to the roof. Nor would he wait until she was dead.That would take some explaining also.

 

[Sillybilly]

There was a news report that all her belonging were in her room, including her computer.

If this report was true, then LE has her computer.

Don't know what news report you are referring to.

AFAIK the only reference LE made to her belongings was "we have some of her belongings ...". If other sources are stating "all her belongings", then that is questionable unless there is some other quote from LE that contradicts what Sgt Teague stated.

Neither Sgt Teague nor the report specify what those belongings are, although we can speculate on the cell phone, given his somewhat unusual response to the question the reporter asked.

 

[Xavier]

For me, it is how she managed to close (or put back) the lid above her. There are no ladders inside the tank.

GirlyGirl -- This video shows there's no lid on the tank when LAFD is getting ready to saw out a hole to get her out of the tank and looks like the cut off the tank lid


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnOAtVHr9AU"]NEW IMAGES - Elisa Lam Case - Cecil Hotel - 02.21.2013.flv - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm not simply stating it's Dec 31st; it's fact. Go to that user's archive page (add /archive after the URL -- the user she reblogged it from), go to December, and you can see it, too! I'm not sure I can link it here, since it isn't Elisa's.

I find it weird that her queue is emptying regularly at midnight every day now, when it wasn't emptying for awhile, and was a different interval before. Weird that she manually programmed all of these. But so far, every one has been a post from before her disappearance.

Then please explain to me how last nite strangemercy posted a screenshot that showed the Hermit was reblogged from magri** on Feb 25 and another name of forest**enchantment underneath it.

(Note: strangemercy has since crossed out their original info and deleted the screenshot of the page)

 

[Socrates]

Her body was putrified, so it is no longer grossly straightforward as water enters all the tissues. We have to wait for pathology to tells us on a microscopic scale whether the tissue was dead before the water entered, or still alive - I think the terms used are hypotonicity vs necrosis.

Okay, I see. Dr. Lee says: "This is why when a case like Elisa's occur, the first thing to do would be to ascertain whether she died before she entered water, or after. This is not difficult, because her abdomen and lungs can be examined to see if any water has entered them; her windpipe can be examined to see if the micro organisms inside are similar to the ones found in the tank, etc."

I really don't know much about forensics. I'm trying to reconcile what you say with what he says, though. It seems a little different. Wouldn't there be obvious differences in the lungs between a body of someone who drowned and one that was dead long before entering the water...

I'm not making any strong assertions here. I don't know enough to express an opinion about this. I'm just asking questions... Actually, I've decided to get some books on forensics to try to get a better understanding of what's going on here...

One point I was trying to make though was directed at Futz, who seems wedded to the theory that the poor girl went into the tank alive. I was just relieved to see that investigators will in fact be able to tell whether that was true or not. It seems unlikely to me that she went in alive,but there's no need to debate about it if the truth will come out soon.

 

[Borris]

Host wanted to have some verification on her blogs. Here are some background links:

1. [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8917365&postcount=314"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2[/ame]


2. [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8925222&postcount=50"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3[/ame]


3. [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8911550&postcount=1017"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013[/ame]

 

[Xavier]

There have been a few thoughts expressed on this forum that she was alive when she went into the tank.

Assuming there was a perpetrator, and she didn't kill herself, I think this is a very unlikely scenario.

I have to believe that whoever put her in the tank knew about the tank before hand.

I really can't believe that someone killed her, scrambled around the hotel looking for a place to put the body, went up to the roof and "Excellent, I'll put the body in a water tank that I found by accident. That has a ladder, and a lid that isn't locked".

Someone who knew about the tank before the killing would also know that the roof was relatively easy to access, not just by them, but by staff testing the water, graffiti artists, young guys looking at the view and balancing on beams, drinking beer and generally hanging out.

I don't think Elisa was alive when she was put into the tank, even if she was unconscious, because the perpetrator would be concerned that she would make noise after he left and possibly alert other visitors to the roof. Nor would he wait until she was dead.That would take some explaining also.

The Cecil has alot of long term residents who know the hotel, who's who, and the facilities, and probably know some of the staff, especially maintenance since they go to the guests room to fix problems with the guests living there...

And I'm sure they gossip, so there has to be someone who will hear something about Elisa's death

A large Reward $$$ especially in that area of LA might be enough incentive to get somebody talking, especially some of the long term residents who live on govt subsidies and need the money


http://www.lapdonline.org/crime_stoppers

 

[Sillybilly]

This news report states that she left behind her cell phone and computer.

Yes, and the reporter just tossed in that one-liner with nothing to back it up. I'm much more inclined to go with a quote from LE than a reporter who didn't bother to substantiate their info or attribute it to an official source.

JMO

 

[Shlock Homes]

Going back to an earlier thread where 'Fei' posted a link to an online chinese article, this part was most interesting (I've provided the translated version of the article, so it looks a little funny. I think 'Blue' is Lam as in Elisa Lam). The part about her being naked, limbs broken, and the lid was locked externally - is this a bad translation? The source is a colleague of an uncle. Again, if that is the proper translation. Also, does it mean they already had the funeral and cremation ceremony for Elisa Lam? Just throwing this out there...

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http://www.iask.ca/news/canada/2013/0225/184670.html

In addition, a woman claiming to be blue Uncle colleagues, means blue uncle had rushed to Los Angeles, attending blue-farewell and cremation ceremonies. She says blue child family informed when missing are United States police told "the best to be found dead" and said blue was found to be completely naked limbs were broken, after entering the tank lid is by an external lock.

 

[commspecialist]

I'm not simply stating it's Dec 31st; it's fact. Go to that user's archive page (add /archive after the URL -- the user she reblogged it from), go to December, and you can see it, too! I'm not sure I can link it here, since it isn't Elisa's.

I find it weird that her queue is emptying regularly at midnight every day now, when it wasn't emptying for awhile, and was a different interval before. Weird that she manually programmed all of these. But so far, every one has been a post from before her disappearance.

I just wanted to add that, as a regular Tumblr user myself, it's rare that people set up posts by day rather than adding them to their queue. Queues empty regularly, there would have been no gap. If someone has her phone, they could have made a new queue.

 

[agnostic98]

I'm not simply stating it's Dec 31st; it's fact. Go to that user's archive page (add /archive after the URL -- the user she reblogged it from), go to December, and you can see it, too! I'm not sure I can link it here, since it isn't Elisa's.

I find it weird that her queue is emptying regularly at midnight every day now, when it wasn't emptying for awhile, and was a different interval before. Weird that she manually programmed all of these. But so far, every one has been a post from before her disappearance.

Indeed, I find the posting schedule very weird. It seems that if it was using teh queue system before Feb 18th, where you don't specify an exact time, the past few days she manually programmed it using an exact schedule. Based on the screenshot I showed earlier of how Tumblr's posting works, you can type in an exact schedule more easily by saying "next month" and it will publish exact 1 month from today at midnight, instead of having to type in an exact date. That may be how she scheduled these and if that's the case she might have done it February 1, or February 2.

 

[commspecialist]

And I know that LE found her phone, but there's a good chance that someone is posting from the blackberry that she lost (though idk why) OR, more likely, if she trusted the perp she might have signed into her tumblr from his device. Tumblr's addictive, so it's not impossible.

Or she did preset these posts, but why the long gap?

 

[smash the stack]

:seeya:

Hello everyone.. been away for a few days. Going to catch up on the latest posts. I have so many questions but I will respectfully hold them until I have caught up on the thread.

 

[Sillybilly]

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but in this pic, there is what appears to be a piece of paper attached to the tank Elisa was found in:

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws...assets/1361522179123201302220032567_46318.jpg



Wondering if it is an evidence marker

 

[Sillybilly]

And I know that LE found her phone, but there's a good chance that someone is posting from the blackberry that she lost (though idk why) OR, more likely, if she trusted the perp she might have signed into her tumblr from his device. Tumblr's addictive, so it's not impossible.

Or she did preset these posts, but why the long gap?

Yeah ... i'm not convinced that someone isn't manipulating the whole social media thing, whether a perp or LE.

I find it mildly interesting that she seemed to be known as "Elisa", but the initials used on the tumblr account are LL. No biggy, just an observation.

 

[BunnyHop]

Yes, and the reporter just tossed in that one-liner with nothing to back it up. I'm much more inclined to go with a quote from LE than a reporter who didn't bother to substantiate their info or attribute it to an official source.

JMO

I agree.

 

[Borris]

Okay, I see. Dr. Lee says: "This is why when a case like Elisa's occur, the first thing to do would be to ascertain whether she died before she entered water, or after. This is not difficult, because her abdomen and lungs can be examined to see if any water has entered them; her windpipe can be examined to see if the micro organisms inside are similar to the ones found in the tank, etc."

I really don't know much about forensics. I'm trying to reconcile what you say with what he says, though. It seems a little different. Woudln't there be obvious differences in the lungs between a body of someone who drowned and one that was dead long before entering the water...

I'm not making any strong assertions here. I don't know enough to express an opinion about this. I'm just asking questions... Actually, I've decided to get some books on forensics to try to get a better understanding of what's going on here...

One point I was trying to make though was directed at Futz, who seems wedded to the theory that the poor girl went into the tank alive. I was just relieved to see that investigators will in fact be able to tell whether that was true or not. It seems unlikely to me,but there's no need to speculate about it if the truth will come out soon.

I think the retired doctor was being gentle on a general audience during his interview. But I will go into a bit of detail. The findings of cause of death for a drowning victim depend on many factors. The major complication that I've read about is putrefaction. The amount of time the corpse lay rotting in the tank will interfere with the coroner's ability to visually determine whether the water in the tissues entered through the mouth or through exposure. Taking a measure of the windpipe's micro-organisms to determine if they are the same found in the water tank, for example, won't work - and gross visual inspection doesn't lead to any conclusion since everything has already been water-logged so-to-speak.

Another kind of complication in the cause of death with drowning victims is hypothermia. Had she entered the tank alive and it was shallow, not 3/4 full, then she would have died of hypothermia before her body went completely underwater, in which case they couldn't conclude that she had died in the tank or not.

There is a third type of complication. They can usually tell if the body died on land before entering the water by noting where the blood has settled. If the corpse is relatively new, this may be easy to to just observing it in the water. For example, if she died on a inclined terrestrial surface with her head pointed downhill, such as a flight of stairs, then the blood would pool toward her upper torso and coagulate there, acting as a kind of anchor when the body is dumped into the tank. It will cause the corpse to end up with the head pointed toward the depths, and the feet pointed toward the top of the tank. It has been reported that this is how they found her body. But because it has been so long, there is evidence that the corpse is a "refloat". This is too much detail, but you get the picture.

It is usually a simple matter to determine through autopsy whether a "new" drowning corpse has died on land first, but with successive period of decomposition, it's more complicated and takes molecular techniques rather than simple observation.

I hope this helps you to reconcile what I've written and what the retired Doctor had related in his interview.

 

[BunnyHop]

Yeah ... i'm not convinced that someone isn't manipulating the whole social media thing, whether a perp or LE.

I find it mildly interesting that she seemed to be known as "Elisa", but the initials used on the tumblr account are LL. No biggy, just an observation.

and on here, you're sillybilly and I'm bunnyhop........
just screen names. :floorlaugh:

 

[No Joe Friday]

If she did go to a speak easy, she might have taken out her contacts, due to smoking.

She didn't care if she couldn't see, she was there for the music.

Despite the way you state this as fact, this is a pure guess, correct?

 

[No Joe Friday]

Please have faith she wasn't on any drugs.

There is simply no way for you to know if she took or was given any drugs.