CA - Chelsea King (17) Rancho Bernardo (north San Diego County) #3

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eyes4crime said:
Oh nurse - different cars! Different counties! Different looks! Different MO's - schools, parks, knive, gun... etc.

If all this is intentional on JG's part, he beats Bundy for ingenuity. Wonder if the girls he went for had the same style and color of hair - wonder how JAG chose his victims.

What a sicko!!!!!!
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But Amber and Chelsea don't look alike at all right???
 
did any member of his family indicate if he had access to a gun, as far as they know? (as some of the reports of attempted abductions mentioned guns...)
 
soyesterday said:
But Amber and Chelsea don't look alike at all right???
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I read one report on this issue that said they were both the same size and same weight. There may have been other similarities too.
 
Mick said:
I read one report on this issue that said they were both the same size and same weight. There may have been other similarities too.
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oh ok
i was just thinking that they LOOK totally different....but yeah maybe the same size and weight...ok....thanks...
 
SWAG1959 said:
Ok Mentalist, but remember you asked! lol

First, I think he confronted her very early on as she was found somewhat close to where the parking lot and her car were. He was probably (maybe) sitting on a bench in wait for anyone and then she pulled up, got her things together (obvious she was going on a run), and then started down the trail. He may have figured she was going to start running and got up and started off before she did. Either way, he subdued her (probably a blow to the head - blunt). That way he could carry her like you normally would carry someone who has passed out - both arms out in front with person cradled. He can carry her that way down a trail so IF detected he can pass it off as she "passed out" or "fainted" or whatever (common for a runner to do).

He carried her to where they found her. You're right about the shoes - probably falling off. Don't know if she ever came to (I, for one. hope she never did) - if she did - she fought - hence possibly the other shoe.

Where she was found was out of sight, hard to see. The entire crime was commited there. We haven't seen another other "site" being roped off and disected, which would lead to believe two scenes (one where he killed her and the other being the burial site). Nope, we've have seen and heard of only one site.

Your post-mortem comment caught me because that has come up in discussions I have with "real life" people - lol. I, personally, don't think so. But, he likes to beat. We saw that in the docs of his first crime - beat that poor lil 13 yr old about the head horribly. He beats and rapes at the same time so its possible that in the commission of the whole event he could have killed his victim and the rape happens post-mortem.

I think he's escalated as far as weapons. I think there is a knife. I think that's why we're not being told COD - kinda obvious if COD is by stabbing or a slit throat. I think the knife they have has other, "older" DNA on it (maybe Amber's).

This one subhuman hunk of flesh is real, real bad. He "blacks" out during his crimes and does horrendous, horriffic things.

How many victims he really has - we will probably never know.

And that's what I think (and it really hurts to think it).
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Im inclined to agree with you on about 80%. I dont think he blacks out after his crime...I think he obtains a high or euphoia with the crime. I think his past offense taught him not to leave witnesses. I also think that the gun/knife is more for looks than for killing. I also think the term "creature" used by Chelseas mom in a televised airing is a big clue. There is nothing more unnatural than a creature. I would however like to know if Gardner was an avid hunter or fisherman and know more about his use of knives. This could tell a great deal about him. I am relunctant to think the knife was used on the victim ...choice of knife is a very personal choice and usually involved in cases of high passion. I do see JAG as a brunt force type of guy and I believe his family indicated a blow up of words...with a possiblity of things getting out of hand in the radio interview. JAG did not have a relationship with Chelsea so I dont see the knife factoring in and I am really not sure if we can say it was even at the crime scene or connected without confirmation. Thank you for sharing...enjoyed your point of view.
 
The interview on John & Ken also mentioned that his biological father died around a year ago. And that he had gone most of his life without a father figure other than the stepfather whom the relative suggested was the "only" reason he graduated from high school. He also said something to the effect that he "didn't want to talk about he relationship he had with his mother". Whoa! The one other thing that I wanted to bring up is that he said he was an electrical journeyman, but also had experience in framing and "concrete" ..... I'd be looking at construction sites he worked on if indeed I thought we were looking for more bodies! Oh, he also mentioned that JAG crashed that gold car around a month ago, so 2/4/09. Thank you passionflower for such a good synopsis! And thanks JB for the link!
 
The way the relative talked JG had 2 step fathers............and his real father out of his life...........
I am wondering if JG has siblings?
How did he treat his girl siblings if he has any?
Something is hinky with mom's relationship to son..........what?
Relatives saw it......must be bad.
was he the man and then got replaced by step dads and other men???
is his feudian thing hurting, controlling, killing his mom over and over???
 
TheMentalist said:
Im inclined to agree with you on about 80%. I dont think he blacks out after his crime...I think he obtains a high or euphoia with the crime. I think his past offense taught him not to leave witnesses. I also think that the gun/knife is more for looks than for killing. I also think the term "creature" used by Chelseas mom in a televised airing is a big clue. There is nothing more unnatural than a creature. I would however like to know if Gardner was an avid hunter or fisherman and know more about his use of knives. This could tell a great deal about him. I am relunctant to think the knife was used on the victim ...choice of knife is a very personal choice and usually involved in cases of high passion. I do see JAG as a brunt force type of guy and I believe his family indicated a blow up of words...with a possiblity of things getting out of hand in the radio interview. JAG did not have a relationship with Chelsea so I dont see the knife factoring in and I am really not sure if we can say it was even at the crime scene or connected without confirmation. Thank you for sharing...enjoyed your point of view.
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No no no, not blacking out after - but more like "seeing red" or the rage in him causes him to kinda "black out" during the crime.

I wanted to add in the comments we heard from the relative about the relationship with his mother. Do we have a "Norman Bates" type of personality here? If that is the case then there are going to be many, many more victims.

I do think he "rages" though. And rather than a euphoria afterward its more of a "relief" type of thing. His crimes happen fast - time wise - but with Chelsea he didn't have much time afterward and possibly he never got a chance to "relax" and that caused him to make mistakes or "get sloppy" - like Amber's mom said.

Electricians use kinves - shredding and cutting wires. When you "shred" a wire you have to be very careful not to cut into the actual metal wire. The COD is going to play a part in this and that is the only reason I can think of (the knife) that the ME has decided to seal the autopsy - so far. But it also could be that he literally beat her to death, however I would think they would have released that - maybe.
 
I forgot to add what I saw on classmates.com about him. He posted that his interests were "camping, cylcing, fishing, skiing, walking". He said he had TWO children. And when it asked about his current relationship status he said "I'm not telling". I have no idea when he put this info in, but there is also a way to see where he said he was living on a map. Someone more familiar with the area that has a classmates account can log on and check it out, unfortunately I couldn't find a way to copy it and get it here.
 
SWAG1959 said:
No no no, not blacking out after - but more like "seeing red" or the rage in him causes him to kinda "black out" during the crime.

I wanted to add in the comments we heard from the relative about the relationship with his mother. Do we have a "Norman Bates" type of personality here? If that is the case then there are going to be many, many more victims.

I do think he "rages" though. And rather than a euphoria afterward its more of a "relief" type of thing. His crimes happen fast - time wise - but with Chelsea he didn't have much time afterward and possibly he never got a chance to "relax" and that caused him to make mistakes or "get sloppy" - like Amber's mom said.

Electricians use kinves - shredding and cutting wires. When you "shred" a wire you have to be very careful not to cut into the actual metal wire. The COD is going to play a part in this and that is the only reason I can think of (the knife) that the ME has decided to seal the autopsy - so far. But it also could be that he literally beat her to death, however I would think they would have released that - maybe.
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Earlier threads have thrown out the Goth connection that JAG had at one time in his formative years. I have some reservations regarding this information if it is based in fact. In terms of the knife I could see him using the knife to bury her and cut a shallow grave out of the soil. I am adjusting my opinion as news unfolds. I find the recent search for hair very disturbing if in fact is connected to JAG. I am hoping that the children may have found a dog or pet that was disposed of and not hair from a human body. I dont feel ready to disclose my thoughts and feelings on that if JAG was removing hair of victims. I think the cause of death is being withheld to keep from tainting a potential jury. I guess time will tell but for now we must wait and see.
 
I just signed on so apologize if this has been said. SD Channel 8 had a lady on tonight who said she saw JAG come out of the water where Chelsey was found last Thurs, the day she went missing.

The lady said she was out walking with her little girl and dog (looked like a large poodle).
She said this man came towards her and he was wearing a red shirt and I think black pants. She said he looked drunk or something and made her very uncomfortable. She maintained eye contact with him and left the area.

When she saw JAG on TV (arrest?) she immediately jumped up and said, "that's the guy" and called LE. This lady said LE went with her to where she saw this guy come from the water and that's why they were again searched the area where Chelsey was found.
 
Tried listening to the scanner tonight, but it was fairly mild for a Friday night.

It's just that much safer with him behind bars forever.
 
TheMentalist said:
Hi Mick, are you getting anything off this article of breaking news of search for Amber?

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...igators-Search-Kit-Carson-Park--86646937.html
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Well, TheMentalist, the first video with the trees verified there's euc's in the area...but I did not see anything of the other what appears to be a pond further up.....that's I've showed on the maps....

The view I had was farther back from the water, and the water was down at least 50 feet, and perhaps as much as 200 feet. Maybe 100-150 feet would be the best guestimate.....was a view looking through trees, down and could see water, then across to another hill. With some trees, but not as many as on the side of the burial. I did not notice any pampas grass.

We must remember there may be even more victims than the two...
 
I found this when reading news articles re: Chelsea today...don't know how accurate it is but thought it interesting (dated March 5, 2010):

"Detectives say that John Gardner, the man accused in the rape and murder of a Poway teenager, is not a suspect in any Riverside County investigations. Gardner lived in Lakeland Village, near Lake Elsinore, and complied with his requirements as a registered sex offender. (INT)"

http://www.inlandnewstoday.com/

(near the bottom in the "Quick Takes" section.)
 
PKitty said:
I just signed on so apologize if this has been said. SD Channel 8 had a lady on tonight who said she saw JAG come out of the water where Chelsey was found last Thurs, the day she went missing.

The lady said she was out walking with her little girl and dog (looked like a large poodle).
She said this man came towards her and he was wearing a red shirt and I think black pants. She said he looked drunk or something and made her very uncomfortable. She maintained eye contact with him and left the area.

When she saw JAG on TV (arrest?) she immediately jumped up and said, "that's the guy" and called LE. This lady said LE went with her to where she saw this guy come from the water and that's why they were again searched the area where Chelsey was found.
Click to expand...

Here is a link:

http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=12093983
 
Woman describes encounter with Gardner at RB park
Posted: Mar 05, 2010 6:56 PM PST
Updated: Mar 05, 2010 6:56 PM PST

RANCHO BERNARDO, Calif. (CBS 8) - John Albert Gardner may have returned to the scene of the crime hours before he was arrested on Sunday. That's according to a new witness who's talking to News 8.

Becky Sangha's chilling account of coming face to face with Chelsea King's accused killer started as she drove into the park. She spotted an inebriated man stumbling up an embankment, who later accosted her along a trail.

"To realize you were that close to someone that evil is something that doesn't sit well inside you," Sangha said.

The Escondido resident was finishing a Sunday afternoon walk along the trail bordering Lake Hodges with her five-year-old daughter and four dogs when she came face to face with Chelsea King's alleged killer.

"I heard the crackling in the bushes first," she said.

She says the man appeared drunk and was dressed in a red shirt and black pants, wet from the waist down as if he'd just come out of the lake. He started to advance toward Sangha and her family.

"His body was kind of forward and he was walking very quickly and directly toward us. It made me uncomfortable. I got alarmed," she said.

The man came as close as 10 or 15 feet as Sangha gathered her daughter and dogs and hurried away, she said.

"I kept eye contact with him the whole time. He finally sat down, but he kept watching us," she said."I don't know what his intentions were that day."

But her instincts were confirmed that night when she saw on the news that John Gardner had been arrested for Chelsea King's murder.

"I jumped out of bed and I said that's the guy, that is the guy who made me feel so uncomfortable. That's him," she said.

Sangha contacted authorities, and on Monday took search teams to the locations she'd spotted Gardner. The next day Chelsea's body was discovered near the lake in a shallow grave.

"It made me feel sick, especially having my daughter with me that day. My gut reaction was to get her out of bed and keep her close to me," Sangha said.

Authorities told Sangha she did two things that could potentially have saved her life - the fact she made and maintained eye contact and that that she was accompanied by her dogs.

Sangha says she's dedicated to making public parks safe for everybody to enjoy.

As part of the effort to raise awareness about park safety, a special event called "Finish Chelsea's Run - Take Back the Parks" is scheduled at Lake Hodges on Saturday, March 20 at 9 a.m.
 
Mick, is it possible that what you were seeing was a lake in a drought condition? I don't know about the lakes down there, but in our area the last 3 years they have been as for as 60% down and now they are full to the brim which would give you very different views of the same lake.
 
I gotta say I'm very skeptical of the woman who has come forward with the info about seeing him (the one with the dog). It took her until Sunday when she saw his picture to call? When you heard the news of a missing girl in the park and then it turns into a crime scene, why on earth would you not call if you thought it that odd?

And, that was not why they searched that area again at all (as a side note).
 
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