CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #3

[Herding Cats]

Okay. PEACE! Human nature is intriguing. I take an interest in the smart predators. Dorner wasn't that smart, his kill rate is rather low all things considered. Dorner was conflicted, and sad, and kind of pleasing/pathetic.

If the targets are in L.A. you hunt in L.A. preferably before they realize they are being hunted, scampering off to Big Bear with snow and icey roads to take over cabins and freeze your a___ off while taking a few hostages isn't exactly a great plan.

Why do you find the mindset fascinating? Serious question.

Anyone who can compartmentalize like he did has an interesting mind, to me. To have such a clear focus - so much so that he let others he ran into/carjacked/held hostage live even though their escape meant that he'd be in a firefight - that speaks reams towards focus.

He was hunting his targets in Irvine...what a lot of folks don't understand is that there are LAPD officers in many communities OTHER than Los Angeles - Simi Valley, Santa Clarita, Irvine, OC, Ventura...lots of the LAPD officers live away from the city they protect. So for him to be killing in Irvine is not an unreasonable or "other place" to hunt. He did kill Quan and Lawrence, both connected to LE (one as the target, the other as her fiance = family). Quan was the one who Dorner believed didn't defend him well during the hearings. So Dorner's killing of his child is a pretty clear carry-out of his manifesto targets.

As for him hunting others, I'm fairly sure he did. He allegedly went to two other houses, but no one was home, and thus they were not shot.

I have NO idea why he went to Big Bear. I had originally thought that it was to spread out manpower so he could continue attacks...and that still may be why he did. But he ended up trapped up there, and once he thought things were calming down (e.g. the CP was removed), he thought he'd make a run for it. He didn't make it...but I still don't know why he chose BB. Baffling, to me.

And may have been the mistake he made. Had he come down off the mountain, he'd've gotten lost in this huge city. Probably could have survived for a while, sniping with his Barrett 50 cal., but who knows.

And I don't suppose we'll ever know why he chose BB...

Agree with the police procedures/responses being changed and using this as a case study. Not so much with the rest of it. He's only one person, and I don't think anything can be extrapolated and applied to other people based on his actions, at least not anything on the level scholarly research. jmo

Well, the same sort of thing was said about Dahmer, and about Bundy, and about BTK, and on and on. Yet they've learned a whole lot about psychopathology from them, and have been able to revamp some of the "knowns" about how MI works (or maybe I should say 'affects').

I suspect there will be a ton learned from this; we may never know just how much is learned, or what changes get made in various places because of this evil SOB...but I have faith that a lot will be learned and a lot of things developed that are proactive in nature that will assist LE, and others, in the future.

Police departments sometimes use real life cases to develop training scenarios for their academies. Since this case involved multi-department cooperation over a large area, I could see them developing a program to train for this sort of event, should it occur in the future.

LE does use a lot of previously experienced situations that have gone wrong to learn from, and this was a huge joint effort - from Federal level down to beat cop in several jurisdictions. I bet this will be taught a whole lot...the rights and the wrongs in LE's response, and Dorner's actions (insofar as they can reconstruct them) will be analyzed out the wazoo to better prepare LE on all levels to respond effectively and with less loss of life next time.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Herding Cats]

I disagree that he showed empathy. He laid out his plan of attack/rules of engagement so to speak pretty plainly in his manifesto. He wasn't after civilians he considered innocent. If anything, he was true to his delusions and persecution complex but that doesn't mean it was empathy.

Seems like he was living completely in his own world and made up his own rules as he went along. I don't know if he was a sociopath or not. jmo

I honestly don't think he was "insane" in the legal sense. His not killing or harming his hostages (physically only; I suspect they were harmed a good deal emotionally) tells me that he knows right from wrong, which is the legal boundary.

I don't know if he was a psychopath, sociopath, or a -path we don't quite know yet.

But he wasn't legally insane.

(I am having trouble spelling tonight...so I'm going to head to bed, and I'll see you all next time!)

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Voice4theSilent]

That is exactly what I find so sad. CD may be dead, but he is getting his wish. Sheeple everywhere are singing his praises and villifying LE for doing their job. All the apologists need to wake up. I will cry myself to sleep tonight for the fate of our great nation and the distructive course that we seem hell bent on going down. ullhair:

If it wasn't him it would have been someone else. People are so emotionally detached yet so plugged in electronically that we can all sit back and watch play by play of the latest tragedy play out before our eyes while eating our popcorn and critiquing everyone's actions and reactions completely out of touch with how they would have actually acted or felt in the same circumstance. Everyone feels like a victim and wronged. I guess the people who are singing his praises and vilifying the police feel some sort of connection with him for one reason or another. I think about his victims. About the wives waking up from the first bit of sleep they were finally able to get only to be hit with the realization that their husband is gone forever. About the children whose memories of their fathers will fade with each passing year or the baby who never got to know his father. About the father standing at a grave clutching onto the baby photos of his daughter who he will never get to walk down the aisle. It makes me sick to my stomach to think that I walk, eat and breathe among some of the same people who would praise such an animal.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Don't shoot the messenger.. What Christopher Dorner did was wrong.. I am simply trying understand why he did what he did.. It has been my experience that history has a way of repeating itself.

Why did he let the civilians live?

They weren't what he considered coworkers, the civilians. A workplace shooting wouldn't have this big of a divide because we usually just hear a brief reason for their grief. The friends, neighbors or family many times say they saw signs that they were changing.

He did say he would shoot any police officer if needed. He only hit two targets that were his most important to him. He installed fear & he got it but I must say LE got him faster than I thought. It was suspenseful but terribly tragic. Another officer dead & another with ongoing surgeries.

Certainly many of the people he praised will come out. Not the ones that have already. I think he admired high morals but knew he'd never achieve them. Ladder climbing to hide the real him & make him feel above others & their morals. You can't always be right.

jmo

 

[deoneta]

RE: I'd also be curious to read the FBI profiles done on Dorner and how close they came in their assessments of where he would be, what he would do, etc.

Christopher Dorner left them a manifesto that detailed exactly what he was going to do. Could you imagine the havoc and confusion that he could have caused if he had not released his intentions?

CountryGirl, obviously they didn't have a clue, nor did they want one. On Greta's show, Retired LAPD Mark Fuhrman stated that Dorner prolly accidentally set his truck on fire while using his lighter for light. Jeeze.. You can't predict when an axle is going to break on a vehicle.

Imo, Christopher Dorner burned his truck to prevent law enforcement K9s from picking up his scent, enabling him to evade investigators through the woods and eventually to the cabin/safe haven where he observed the incident command for several days..

The search of the Big Bear cabins would have brought closure to this tragedy days before if a proper search had been conducted, imo.. Many of the Big Bear cabin occupants stated that LE never knocked on their doors.. If the cabins were unoccupied & no one answered, they were ignored.. Christopher Dorner would not have answered the door...

Imo, Due to his empathy for the four civilians(letting them live). There may be some truth to his grievance; former partner battering the arrestee,(at least in Dorner's mind)..

BBM I don't really see armed carjacking and kidnapping as demonstrating Dorner's kinder, gentler side. If there is any "truth" to Dorner's claims, it apparently was only in his mind. The prisoner had no marks and didn't require any medical attention. Two witnesses disputed Dorner's claims. Spree killers are capable of lying. All MOO

 

[MsFacetious]

Today there are four children 10 years and younger... without a Daddy anymore.

Today that is where my focus is. Those two officers who were murdered and the children left fatherless. :twocents:


Michael Craine - two children ages 4 and 10.

http://www.facebook.com/OfficerMichaelCrain


Jeremiah MacKay - two children ages 4 months and 7 years.

http://www.facebook.com/JeremiahMacKaySBCSD[/QUOTE]



I also think of the children that will never be born. The hopes and dreams that were destroyed.
Keith Lawrence and Monica Quan.

http://www.facebook.com/TheMonicaQuanKeithLawrenceScholarshipFund?ref=ts&fref=ts

 

[jjenny]

Yes, apparently the "kinder, gentler side" consisted of taking civilians as hostages and carjackings.
Boggles the mind that some people apparently consider that as him feeling empathy and such.

 

[unbending intent]

Fire-Proof Wallet? i've heard the Audio,on the police Scanner. Yep,intentionally set. I saw the KTLA 5 Christina Consolo report today ,she said Dorner was 50 YARDS AWAY for days help up in a house across the street from the Police HQ and the Press. they said We searched the Area. i guess they didn't do a good enough job. I am posting this Fact. because in the days that followed Dorner shot and , sadly killed another LE officer w/ family. a very good search of ALL buildings ,would have kept this man alive. Somebody on the LE force should have the courage and take the blame.this ball-drop ended w/ someone's life. on Feb 7th Dorner's wallet was found near the MEX border,He had 2? Why? and how did he get the second one ,Run back home? No.If your America's most wanted you carry YOUR REAL ID w/ you? Why not get a fake one w/ a different name? i have written these questions to LA TIMES and KTLA 5 ,and i am currently waiting for a response. An very sad day here in CALI ,My heart goes out to ALL the families affected by this mad man.and yes even the Woman,whose house was torched by LE.

 

[unbending intent]

i like what you said @ Garden lady!! yes a higher standard. and now no $ 1.2 million pay out?? outrageous!!!

 

[shadowraiths]

Imo, Due to his empathy for the four civilians(letting them live). There may be some truth to his grievance; former partner battering the arrestee,(at least in Dorner's mind)..

Imo, not shooting the civilians, had nothing to do with empathy. Rather, he was fixated on LE. They and their families were his targets. This is similar to preference offenders. They are driven by preference, not empathy. Dorner's behavior, from the moment he chose to murder Quan and Lawrence, demonstrated someone hell bent to rain down upon LE as much devastation as he could. The civilians simply did not fit into his script. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[katydid23]

Quoting myself here, in case it got lost on the last page. I hope this finally puts to bed the mistaken assumption that it is the f-word that some of us find disturbing.

The guy barricaded inside the cabin had PROMISED to target the CHILDREN of these officers. He actually posted a threat to kill these officer's children.

If someone posted on their FB that the planned to kill YOUR family and would gladly die doing so, would you possibly be enthusiastic about their demise, as well?

 

[katydid23]

The empathy displayed by Christopher Dorner to the innocent civilians may indicate that he wasn't a psychopath, imo..

Monica Quan, the beautiful young basketball coach, newly engaged, was a INNOCENT CIVILIAN> and he shot her face off after stalking her as she left a Super Bowl party. He showed ZERO empathy.

 

[SFDukie]

Nuts sometimes slip through the cracks. But his issues might have been made worse by combat.

His service record doesn't include any combat. No service in a war zone.
http://www.10news.com/news/investigations/us-navy-releases-records-of-triple-shooting-suspect-christopher-dorner02072013

 

[SFDukie]

Anyone else surprised this guy stopped and let the suspect approach his car?

Guess maybe if he was standing in the road pointing a gun directly at the driver, that would force someone to stop but otherwise heck no, a car is a weapon too. Maybe the folks in Big Bear weren't concerned about the lunatic being on the loose anymore?

Heltebrake slowed for a curve, and dorner was on the side of the road pointing a rifle at him. He stopped. (there is a link to a recorded interview where he relates this below)

"Christopher Dorner jumped out in front of my truck. He apparently had crashed whatever vehicle he was driving, and he stopped me at gunpoint," Heltebrake said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57569233/carjacking-victim-christopher-dorner-told-me-i-dont-want-to-hurt-you/

 

[SFDukie]

Anyone else surprised this guy stopped and let the suspect approach his car?

Guess maybe if he was standing in the road pointing a gun directly at the driver, that would force someone to stop but otherwise heck no, a car is a weapon too. Maybe the folks in Big Bear weren't concerned about the lunatic being on the loose anymore?

Heltebrake slowed for a curve, and dorner was on the side of the road pointing a rifle at him. He stopped. (there is a link to a recorded interview where he relates this below)

"Christopher Dorner jumped out in front of my truck. He apparently had crashed whatever vehicle he was driving, and he stopped me at gunpoint," Heltebrake said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57569233/carjacking-victim-christopher-dorner-told-me-i-dont-want-to-hurt-you/

 

[Gardenlady]

Up until today I have always been proud to be a WS member. I joined during the Jessica Ridgeway horror and at that time I was very impressed by the caliber of other members and their respect for LE and the VICTIMS. Today, I have seen the absolute worst of WS. Those of you posting in favor of what CD has done and questioning LE in regards to their response to the clear and present danger he represented are asinine. There are NO EXCUSES for his actions! Any consequences that resulted from HIS choices are a direct result of WHAT HE CHOSE TO DO!!! If you want to be apologists for THIS MURDERIOUS FREAK take it to the comments on any MSM board. I cannot wait for the mods to catch up and abide by the TOS of WS, we are VICTIM friendly. LE and their families are the VICTIMS in this situation, NOT CD. He chose his path; he paid for it...enough said.

I think this is a completely unfair characterization - I haven't, nor have I seen anyone else post "in favor" of what Dorner did. I have, and have seen concern about what LE did, and what LEs mindset was. Not the same thing at all.

 

[Gardenlady]

The guy barricaded inside the cabin had PROMISED to target the CHILDREN of these officers. He actually posted a threat to kill these officer's children.

If someone posted on their FB that the planned to kill YOUR family and would gladly die doing so, would you possibly be enthusiastic about their demise, as well?

Actually weren't the officers that were named and threatened under guard somewhe else, with their families?

That would be done to keep them safe, and at the same time, to keep them from being involved with the apprehension. For the same reason that say, a judge would recuse themselves from a case where they know a defendant or victim. Because we know that it would be impossible for them to act dispassionately and in an unbiased way.

We really don't want a police force that is carrying out their duties with a mindset of vengeance, do we? Because that is what "burn the *******advertiser censored***r" says to me: vengeance. Not even just losing cool.

 

[believe09]

The empathy displayed by Christopher Dorner to the innocent civilians may indicate that he wasn't a psychopath, imo..

Empathy, interesting. I am certain that everyone else pointed out the civilians who were killed by him.

Even psychopaths dont kill everyone. Just sayin.

 

[Hejlena]

IMO, this notion that Dorner was showing empathy because he did not murder anyone except those he *promised to murder* is assanine. This is not empathy, folks. This is control.

 

[Elley Mae]

Up until today I have always been proud to be a WS member. I joined during the Jessica Ridgeway horror and at that time I was very impressed by the caliber of other members and their respect for LE and the VICTIMS. Today, I have seen the absolute worst of WS. Those of you posting in favor of what CD has done and questioning LE in regards to their response to the clear and present danger he represented are asinine. There are NO EXCUSES for his actions! Any consequences that resulted from HIS choices are a direct result of WHAT HE CHOSE TO DO!!! If you want to be apologists for THIS MURDERIOUS FREAK take it to the comments on any MSM board. I cannot wait for the mods to catch up and abide by the TOS of WS, we are VICTIM friendly. LE and their families are the VICTIMS in this situation, NOT CD. He chose his path; he paid for it...enough said.

My heart hurts for the innocent lives lost in this tragedy. But that does not give LE(the ones that are alive are not victims)the right to act like (never mind). They are just like us, they are not special, they are trained to do a job like other people that work. It does not take a rocket scientist to be LE. They make mistakes and get caught at wrong doing just like everybody else.

My father was a cop and some of the stories he related to me after years had past, about coworkers were eye opening to say the least. jmo