CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

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otto said:
If Lyle and Erik believe that they were mistreated during childhood,
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EDITED TO ADD: We all know about the pin torture, right?
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RSBM
It's not a belief.
Sadistic abuse is much more than "mistreatment".

I look at push pins in a new way since this case.
 
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housewife said:
That photo seems sad. That is not the one I'm talking about.

We cannot post the photo of the boys as children, naked.
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All the trial evidence is available online, and posting a link to trial evidence shouldn't be a problem. The above photo is the only one I'm aware of that was argued to be pornographic. It isn't.
 
 
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otto said:
This isn't about children who are intimidated by authority. These two men, aged 18 and 21 at the time of the murders, had their entire lives ahead of them. They should have done what many people age 18-21 do: get a job, find a place to live, build a life and a future for themselves. I don't believe for a moment that two athletes with active social lives couldn't figure that out.

There's has long been a debate about whether murderers can blame an unfortunate childhood on their decision to kill people. Many have tried. The answer is no. Ted Bundy cannot blame his childhood family dysfunction for his decision to kidnap, torture, and murder young women.

If Lyle and Erik believe that they were mistreated during childhood, they should have reported their parents. They had options, they made choices, and they should live with the consequences.
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I dont think you understand what happens to children who ate bullied and abused by both of their parents. And the deep long lasting trauma it causes

They also could have killed themselves.

Did they do the right thing? No…
Were they abused. Quite possibly.

My mum
Abused me for many years and ppl reported her and the school tried to help. But i was too scared to tell the truth. I had to to home to her every day. I was physically and verbally abused every day i was with her.
I havent murdered her. But i have so many issues. Even tho i deint live with my dad i had a loving father, who when found out took me out.

Maybe the parents were kind and loving. I highly doubt it. But if those boys were abused even 5% of what they have said, then i truly feel for them. No child should be abused ever.
 
suspicious said:
I dont think you understand what happens to children who ate bullied and abused by both of their parents. And the deep long lasting trauma it causes

They also could have killed themselves.

Did they do the right thing? No…
Were they abused. Quite possibly.

My mum
Abused me for many years and ppl reported her and the school tried to help. But i was too scared to tell the truth. I had to to home to her every day. I was physically and verbally abused every day i was with her.
I havent murdered her. But i have so many issues. Even tho i deint live with my dad i had a loving father, who when found out took me out.

Maybe the parents were kind and loving. I highly doubt it. But if those boys were abused even 5% of what they have said, then i truly feel for them. No child should be abused ever.
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Thank you for sharing that, suspicious. I'm glad you are here!
 
Here is more info on the headless pornographic photos. They were found in an envelope with Kitty's handwriting on it "Eric's birthday November 1976".

Why would parents keep these photos??

WARNING: DISTURBING, POSSIBLY TRIGGERING IMAGES AT FOLLOWING LINK

www.courttv.com

111-CA v. Menendez: Lyle Menendez Defense Closing Arguments: Jill Lansing

Defense attorney Jill Lansing delivers her closing argument in the case against Lyle Menendez.
www.courttv.com www.courttv.com
 
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housewife said:
Abusers often threaten their victims so the abuse remains a secret.
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But of course and that's why it's so hard to figure out in a 'he said, she said'. In this case, the two accused are dead and cannot defend themselves and our only way of establishing veracity of the allegation is the credibility of the alleged victims and any corroborating evidence such as complaints to others, other victims, letters, etc.
 
Bozanich really said: “men could not be raped, because they lack the necessary equipment to be raped”.

“Back in 1993, I interviewed every juror after the first trial,” Rand says. “All the women voted for manslaughter. All the men voted for murder. All the men said to me, ‘Well, a father would never do that to his sons, right?’ ... I think that we have evolved as a society over the past 30 years and we are much more willing to accept that these things really do happen, not only to women, but also to men.”
 
I don’t understand why both things can’t be true, I think they were abused by their parents. But I also think they are cold blooded murderers who belong in prison.

They could have moved away and had whatever lives they wanted, but they didn’t want to give up the money.
 
TristanP said:
I don’t understand why both things can’t be true, I think they were abused by their parents. But I also think they are cold blooded murderers who belong in prison.

They could have moved away and had whatever lives they wanted, but they didn’t want to give up the money.
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Leaving is not easy, nor is it a guarantee of safety. Jose Menendez was a Hollywood executive and was wealthy and powerful. It was 1989. The evidence at the first trial disproves the "cold-blooded murderers" argument. The money motive was also never proven. The fact that the majority of their family members believe and support them, and some testified in the brothers' behalf, speaks volumes. Abuse is a mitigating factor

MOO
 
TristanP said:
I don’t understand why both things can’t be true, I think they were abused by their parents. But I also think they are cold blooded murderers who belong in prison.

They could have moved away and had whatever lives they wanted, but they didn’t want to give up the money.
Click to expand...
But Jose had already told Eric that he would not be allowed to live on campus, he was being forced to continue residing in Jose's home/bed. For the rest of his life.

Jose was a controlling person. He never wanted Eric to become independent and create a life of his own. Eric had been looking forward to escaping rape by going away to college, when his father laid down the ultimatum Eric realized he really had no future. The rapes would continue. IMHO he was suicidal at that point. IMO Lyle was trying to help Eric get free from the abuse.
 
Maybe we should give Kitty Menendez more respect and look at her murder separate from Jose. The argument seems to be that the murder of Jose was justified due to mitigating factors, and his wife is tossed in as an extension of Jose. I can believe that Kitty Menendez was given little attention during the 1990s trials because she was "the wife" (life was different 35 years ago), but she should be given a strong voice in 2024.

Kitty drank alcohol and was prescribed sleeping pills. Is murder justified when the murderers tell the court that she needed to be put out of her misery, that she wanted to commit suicide but was too weak, that she wanted to die, so the murder was a mercy killing? That's essentially the argument - Kitty's mercy killing required 10 bullets, because that was merciful in the minds of Lyle and Erik.

According to their own words, Kitty was the primary target, and Jose was collateral damage.

November 1993
"And while they complain on the tape about their dictatorial father, they never allege that he sexually molested them. His main transgression, as they described it, was being a terrible husband to their mother.

Their father had been unfaithful for years, the brothers told Oziel, causing Kitty Menendez to seek refuge in liquor and pills. She finally became suicidal, Lyle Menendez said. By killing her, he said, the brothers “were doing her and us a favor . . . putting her out of her misery, really.”

But it would be ridiculous to kill only their mother, Lyle Menendez said, and leave their father alive. “He was putting my mother through torture,” Erik Menendez said. So, Lyle Menendez said, “we thought that we would just kill Dad, and eliminate the problem.”
...

Lyle: . . . I still think Mom’s was a suicide. Because I, you know, I feel that in her letters to, to Erik and I, she gave me the permission . . . to, to, to please carry out her suicide, and that it was obvious that she had decided in her own mind, she wants to die. . . . What Erik and I did took courage beyond belief. Beyond, beyond strength. There was no way I was gonna make a decision to kill my mother without Erik’s consent. . . . I just let him sleep on it for a couple days. . . . It had to be his own personal issue. If he felt the same way I did about killing Mom. . . . I did what I thought my mother would want me to do. Which is, ‘Please kill me, and I can’t’ . . . in a way I’m happy that people say afterwards, ‘You know, there’s no way that your mom could have lived without your dad. I’m glad . . . ‘"​
LA Times

If a judge decides that the murder of Jose was manslaughter due to mitigating factors, how do we get around the murder of their mother? There are no mitigating factors for that cold-blooded murder. Should Kitty's murder be downplayed because her sons imagined that she preferred to die, or should Lyle and Erik be sentenced separately for unmitigated matricide? Should she be viewed as collateral damage for the alleged sins of Jose?
 
otto said:
Maybe we should give Kitty Menendez more respect and look at her murder separate from Jose. The argument seems to be that the murder of Jose was justified due to mitigating factors, and his wife is tossed in as an extension of Jose. I can believe that Kitty Menendez was given little attention during the 1990s trials because she was "the wife" (life was different 35 years ago), but she should be given a strong voice in 2024.

Kitty drank alcohol and was prescribed sleeping pills. Is murder justified when the murderers tell the court that she needed to be put out of her misery, that she wanted to commit suicide but was too weak, that she wanted to die, so the murder was a mercy killing? That's essentially the argument - Kitty's mercy killing required 10 bullets, because that was merciful in the minds of Lyle and Erik.

According to their own words, Kitty was the primary target, and Jose was collateral damage.

November 1993
"And while they complain on the tape about their dictatorial father, they never allege that he sexually molested them. His main transgression, as they described it, was being a terrible husband to their mother.​
​
Their father had been unfaithful for years, the brothers told Oziel, causing Kitty Menendez to seek refuge in liquor and pills. She finally became suicidal, Lyle Menendez said. By killing her, he said, the brothers “were doing her and us a favor . . . putting her out of her misery, really.”​
​
But it would be ridiculous to kill only their mother, Lyle Menendez said, and leave their father alive. “He was putting my mother through torture,” Erik Menendez said. So, Lyle Menendez said, “we thought that we would just kill Dad, and eliminate the problem.”​
...​
​
Lyle: . . . I still think Mom’s was a suicide. Because I, you know, I feel that in her letters to, to Erik and I, she gave me the permission . . . to, to, to please carry out her suicide, and that it was obvious that she had decided in her own mind, she wants to die. . . . What Erik and I did took courage beyond belief. Beyond, beyond strength. There was no way I was gonna make a decision to kill my mother without Erik’s consent. . . . I just let him sleep on it for a couple days. . . . It had to be his own personal issue. If he felt the same way I did about killing Mom. . . . I did what I thought my mother would want me to do. Which is, ‘Please kill me, and I can’t’ . . . in a way I’m happy that people say afterwards, ‘You know, there’s no way that your mom could have lived without your dad. I’m glad . . . ‘"​
LA Times

If a judge decides that the murder of Jose was manslaughter due to mitigating factors, how do we get around the murder of their mother? There are no mitigating factors for that cold-blooded murder. Should Kitty's murder be downplayed because her sons imagined that she preferred to die, or should Lyle and Erik be sentenced separately for unmitigated matricide? Should she be viewed as collateral damage for the alleged sins of Jose?
Click to expand...
Their mother also sexually abused them

The quotes you used are from their meetings with Oziel. It was established in the first trial that these tapes/notes weren’t super credible because:

1) Oziel was essentially blackmailing them and looking to profit off of this

2) Oziel was speculating a lot and trying to come up with his own theories/conclusions as to why the murders happened. He himself had previously met one or both of the parents and had already formed his own impressions.

3) Lyle and Erik didn’t trust Oziel and didn’t want to reveal their abuse to him. They both have said that they let Oziel form his own conclusions, went along with whatever he said, didn’t correct him on things he got wrong. I believe even experts testified to this (that in a lot of parts in the tape, the brothers were just repeating Oziel’s words back to him)

Again, I would suggest watching the complete first trial. It’s easy to have no sympathy and just believe the narrative that the prosecution ran with. But once you listen to the testimony, witnesses, and the experts it’s clear that this wasn’t a case of greed. A lifetime of severe, ongoing abuse affects the brain/development of a child. It doesn't justify what happened, but it explains why they were in fear of their lives and why they didn’t just leave as so many have argued. JMO
 
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theonewithallthequestions said:
Their mother also sexually abused them

The quotes you used are from their meetings with Oziel. It was established in the first trial that these tapes/notes weren’t super credible because:

1) Oziel was essentially blackmailing them and looking to profit off of this

2) Oziel was speculating a lot and trying to come up with his own theories/conclusions as to why the murders happened. He himself had previously met one or both of the parents and had already formed his own impressions.

3) Lyle and Erik didn’t trust Oziel and didn’t want to reveal their abuse to him. They both have said that they let Oziel form his own conclusions, went along with whatever he said, didn’t correct him on things he got wrong. I believe even experts testified to this (that in a lot of parts in the tape, the brothers were just repeating Oziel’s words back to him)

Again, I would suggest watching the complete first trial. It’s easy to have no sympathy and just believe the narrative that the prosecution ran with. But once you listen to the testimony, witnesses, and the experts it’s clear that this wasn’t a case of greed and how a lifetime of severe, ongoing abuse affects the brain/development of a child. It doesn't justify what happened, but it explains why they were in fear of their lives and why they didn’t just leave as so many have argued. JMO
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What ??? I have never heard that before ... or maybe I found it unbelievable.
So Kitty Menendez was a sex offender too. Interesting.

It sounds like Kitty and Jose were a bit like Fred and Rosemary West - jointly sexually assaulting their own children.

There it is - from humble beginnings, to beauty pageant winner, to school teacher, to housewife who put family before career, to pedophile who wanted to die (according to Lyle and Erik). I bet there aren't too many women with that history!

Kitty dragged Lyle around the house by his short hair - could that explain his teenage baldness? She must have been very strong to drag a 12 year old around by the hair.

“She was stunningly beautiful, and I mean beautiful on the outside and even more so on the inside,” her brother Brian Andersen told ABC’s 20/20. In 1962, Kitty won the Miss Oak Lawn beauty pageant. By this time, her good looks had already caught the attention of a young Cuban immigrant named José Menendez.
...

Kitty initially worked as a school teacher. But upon the birth of their two sons—Lyle in January 1968 and Erik in November 197o—Kitty put her own aspirations aside to become a full-time housewife at José’s urging. The family eventually settled near Princeton, New Jersey, where the brothers attended the private Princeton Day School.
...

During his testimony on September 13, 1993, Lyle claimed Kitty invited him to bed and asked him to touch her “everywhere” beginning when he was around age 11 until after he turned 13. He also testified she would frequently appear fully or semi-nude in front of him inside their house.

The elder brother also accused Kitty of physical and psychological abuse, saying she kicked him and dragged him to his room by his hair. He claimed she would punish him by throwing his prized possessions, including stuffed animals, out of his window."

www.biography.com

The Complicated Life of Kitty Menendez

The Menendez brothers’ mother, portrayed by Chloë Sevigny in the new Netflix show ‘Monsters,’ faced her own challenges before her 1989 murder.
www.biography.com www.biography.com
 
Is there any situation where a murderous, premeditated, preemptive strike is justified?

"If anyone could have gotten them off, it would have been the brothers’ lead counsel, Leslie Abramson. ... Abramson’s job was to distract and deflect. She was good at it.

But she could never get past one problem. No matter what happened inside the house at 722 North Elm Drive before August 20, 1989, there was never any evidence to corroborate the brothers’ abuse allegations—or, more importantly, the idea they were afraid they were about to be killed that night.

Besides, abuse does not justify or excuse a revenge killing. It may be a reason to reduce punishment. But killing someone isn’t self-defense unless you believe they’re about to kill you. That’s not the case with Lyle and Erik Menendez.
...

“Erik’s testimony about his general fear in the days leading up to the murder does not provide any evidence that, at the moment he shotgunned his parents to death, he feared he was in imminent peril,” the court writes. ... “Taking Erik’s testimony as true, these killings were, in effect, preemptive strikes.” The “focus on this evidence,” wrote the court, “is misplaced.”

Sons who murder parents? In preemptive strikes? They belong in a state prison. For life. Not in the civilized world, among us."

www.thefp.com

Don’t Feel Sorry for the Menendez Brothers

A new Netflix documentary has led many people to question whether the Menendez brothers should still be in prison. The answer is simple: Yes.
www.thefp.com www.thefp.com
 
Actually I am now getting a little confused perhaps? It was my understanding that it would be improper to conflate the two trials for the Menendez brothers. Court rulings, evidence presented, and judge’s ruling determinations differ. And IIUC some evidence was disallowed in the second trial. And presume that evidentiary rulings were made by the court for that purpose. So it seems IMO it is not practical to attempt to combine or confuse the two trials, their evidence, or the two differing outcomes. MOO
 
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