CA CA - Elizabeth Short 'Black Dahlia', 22, Los Angeles, 15 Jan 1947

[Robin Hood]

The cutting of the mouth like that was also called a 'Glasgow smile' in Scotland. The Kray twins in London were seen to do it to another gang member in the film 'The Krays'

 

[December]

One thing I have learned is that defilement is a big, important thing to some (evil type) people. Obviously, no one could survive the defilement done to Miss Short, so she was a proxy. By defiling her a person or persons defiled themselves. It was a heavily ritualized crime. They were probably into some very sick activities. Someone knows. Someone has always known.

I read a lot about this case until I saw the real photos. I do not recommend looking for them. I didn't. They were just on an otherwise text-heavy webpage. After seeing the photos, I just don't know what to think. Murderers are evil, but this is the evil of the evil.

 

[December]

I just read on Mr. Harnisch's site that the photos from Dr. Hodel's album were not Betty according to her sisters. But, then they go on to say that is because she never would have worn flowers all over her head. But, if the woman is modeling, then she will wear however many flowers on her head the person who hired her wants. That being said, her jawline and eyebrows are different. Miss Short's sisters are surely elderly and traumatized, so I'm not blaming them. I was just surprised he put that, but then the photo doesn't look that much like Miss Short.

 

[Ausgirl]

Staring at the crime scene pictures of Elizabeth Short taught me this one thing: what a hypocrite I am, if I bawww outrage over the mangled bodies of victims, yet heap scorn on women like her while they live. Thanks, Betty, for that wisdom. I hope you are in peace.

Just some thoughts on the crime scene:

- The exsanguination and bisection says to me this guy probably had a vehicle other people saw or traveled in, and he could not risk having blood or a body-shaped lump in it. Possibly a company vehicle, that sort of thing. Not a family vehicle, for reasons given below.

- This tells me, in turn, that he probably lived close to or worked among people, and so was good or at least adequate at masking himself. Incredible self control, fastidious, definitely - to OCD levels. maybe, which would enable him to appear normal - except where he felt safe to let loose.. But like I said above, his madness would have to 'leak' sooner or later. Somebody would have seen it. He may have had an 'aura' about him that made people feel uncomfortable, despite his efforts to look normal. Maintaining his mask through normal relationships would be extremely difficult for this man. I highly doubt he lived in family situation.

- He had a safe place to handle Elizabeth, all of her blood and her body. He could have lived alone, or used an empty building.

- He spent a long time with her, a really long time. So he had a means of accounting for that time, or nobody to answer to.

- If he did share a home at all, it would be with a mother or wife who was completely submissive by nature. Somebody who would not, or dared not, question him.

- I don't think this was a simple crime, a hit. It's too far from simple for that. The killer took risks to make his point that go far beyond that a 'businessman' would take. This guy was a sadistic, sexual psychopath, I have no doubt of that.

- He cut her half, probably for convenience and lessening of risk (taking her out of a building where there were passersby and neighbours, maybe) but put her 'back together' at the crime scene. This was very deliberate and important to his 'message', part of what he wanted to get across. This killer was 'shouting' something, here. Every element of the crime scene is, I think, a very carefully placed part of that.

- If he'd killed before, and I really think he had and that there ARE other victims, other bodies - he may not have bisected his victims, but they would be mutilated and/or degraded in some way. Probably nothing like Betty, though - like Mary Kelly was to the Ripper, he would have built up to that over time - she was probably the pinnacle of what he wanted to achieve, the greatest moment of release or expression for him. Or yeah, we'd likely know about it...

- The matter in her stomach - was that fertiliser? The rose tattoo and the grass in her vagina .. that is way symbolic of -something- for the killer. A garden, maybe?

- The crime scene was his greatest moment of risk. He spent time there, too.. a lot of time, arranging things just so. He would have been excited, exhilarated, not totally cool as he would be otherwise. I think the cement bags could have been his one 'mistake', for that reason.

- I find it very hard to believe that the link between Betty and the crime scene was sheer coincidence. It wasn't a 'dump site' - Betty was not 'dumped' she was arranged with infinite care. Therefore, I don't discount that the killer knew her, possibly very well. Well enough to know she grew up around these people who owned that land, anyway. I am seeing it as a very deliberate choice.

Just some thoughts that circle around in my mind, whenever I ponder this crime. Sorry for the rambling.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Staring at the crime scene pictures of Elizabeth Short taught me this one thing: what a hypocrite I am, if I bawww outrage over the mangled bodies of victims, yet heap scorn on women like her while they live. Thanks, Betty, for that wisdom. I hope you are in peace.

Just some thoughts on the crime scene:

- The exsanguination and bisection says to me this guy probably had a vehicle other people saw or traveled in, and he could not risk having blood or a body-shaped lump in it. Possibly a company vehicle, that sort of thing. Not a family vehicle, for reasons given below.

- This tells me, in turn, that he probably lived close to or worked among people, and so was good or at least adequate at masking himself. Incredible self control, fastidious, definitely - to OCD levels. maybe, which would enable him to appear normal - except where he felt safe to let loose.. But like I said above, his madness would have to 'leak' sooner or later. Somebody would have seen it. He may have had an 'aura' about him that made people feel uncomfortable, despite his efforts to look normal. Maintaining his mask through normal relationships would be extremely difficult for this man. I highly doubt he lived in family situation.

- He had a safe place to handle Elizabeth, all of her blood and her body. He could have lived alone, or used an empty building.

- He spent a long time with her, a really long time. So he had a means of accounting for that time, or nobody to answer to.

- If he did share a home at all, it would be with a mother or wife who was completely submissive by nature. Somebody who would not, or dared not, question him.

- I don't think this was a simple crime, a hit. It's too far from simple for that. The killer took risks to make his point that go far beyond that a 'businessman' would take. This guy was a sadistic, sexual psychopath, I have no doubt of that.

- He cut her half, probably for convenience and lessening of risk (taking her out of a building where there were passersby and neighbours, maybe) but put her 'back together' at the crime scene. This was very deliberate and important to his 'message', part of what he wanted to get across. This killer was 'shouting' something, here. Every element of the crime scene is, I think, a very carefully placed part of that.

- If he'd killed before, and I really think he had and that there ARE other victims, other bodies - he may not have bisected his victims, but they would be mutilated and/or degraded in some way. Probably nothing like Betty, though - like Mary Kelly was to the Ripper, he would have built up to that over time - she was probably the pinnacle of what he wanted to achieve, the greatest moment of release or expression for him. Or yeah, we'd likely know about it...

- The matter in her stomach - was that fertiliser? The rose tattoo and the grass in her vagina .. that is way symbolic of -something- for the killer. A garden, maybe?

- The crime scene was his greatest moment of risk. He spent time there, too.. a lot of time, arranging things just so. He would have been excited, exhilarated, not totally cool as he would be otherwise. I think the cement bags could have been his one 'mistake', for that reason.

- I find it very hard to believe that the link between Betty and the crime scene was sheer coincidence. It wasn't a 'dump site' - Betty was not 'dumped' she was arranged with infinite care. Therefore, I don't discount that the killer knew her, possibly very well. Well enough to know she grew up around these people who owned that land, anyway. I am seeing it as a very deliberate choice.

Just some thoughts that circle around in my mind, whenever I ponder this crime. Sorry for the rambling.

The rumor is that two doctors were involved in her death as well as a get away driver (who was a pimp and of sorts) and the connections were established by Bugsy for the Head publisher of the LA Times - who had gotten ES pregnant. Bugsy had the same criminal defense lawyer as Hodel, so that's how they knew each other and hooked up.

Women at that time often would get pregnant to blackmail rich men into providing financial support for the woman and child.

ES reproductive area/organs had been removed and replaced with dirt, grass, and her own excrement. This would cause decay/putridity rate to increase rapidly and make identification of a possible pregnancy/womb near impossible.



IMO.

 

[CanManEh]

I had read or seen somewhere that the reason ES was allways called a tease was because she couldn't have sex something was wrong with well something down there and it stopped her from being ble to have sex she would flirt and get these men turned on or try to get a part in a movie and when the person would try to get her to have sex she would then back out thus being a tease....

 

[Donamena]

The Hodel connection makes a certain grim sense (per his son's book and also and especially 'Exquisite Corpse: Surrealism and the Black Dahlia") especially if one considers certain works by Duchamp and Man Ray. Not sure it's necessary to bring half of Hollywood to the party though.

That book was so hideous. I got it as a gift from some demented ex-friend. I drove to her house & left it on the porch. Never heard from her again. The photos were gruesome, which is why I always check to be sure there are no "warning morgue photos" on WS. totally unprepared for that book.
I can't listen to Elroy. His delivery makes me feel like I need qualuudes to reach an even keel. Staccato delivery. Squeaky voice.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I had read or seen somewhere that the reason ES was allways called a tease was because she couldn't have sex something was wrong with well something down there and it stopped her from being ble to have sex she would flirt and get these men turned on or try to get a part in a movie and when the person would try to get her to have sex she would then back out thus being a tease....

That was a rumor. The medical examiner on the stand stated no such thing. In fact that part of his testimony was rushed through by the DA. The rumor of her being unable to have sex would even further the supposition that she would not be able to get pregnant.

Spreading the rumor that she had no reproductive entry canal is a perfect example of many of the ways her pregnancy was being covered up - all in order to keep the unwanted pregnancy of the LA times already married head publisher mum.

 

[CanManEh]

That was a rumor. The medical examiner on the stand stated no such thing. In fact that part of his testimony was rushed through by the DA. The rumor of her being unable to have sex would even further the supposition that she would not be able to get pregnant.

Spreading the rumor that she had no reproductive entry canal is a perfect example of many of the ways her pregnancy was being covered up - all in order to keep the unwanted pregnancy of the LA times already married head publisher mum.

I AM NOT SPREADING A RUMOR THANK YOU VERY MUCH. If it's false and you know for a fact it is then u cleared that up . All i was doing was repeating something i read .If i was the first person to EVER say it which clearly iam not then that would be spreading rumors however even you said that a medical examiner was suggest such some time ago so he would be the one that was spreading a rumour ..

 

[Ausgirl]

The rumor is that two doctors were involved in her death as well as a get away driver (who was a pimp and of sorts) and the connections were established by Bugsy for the Head publisher of the LA Times - who had gotten ES pregnant. Bugsy had the same criminal defense lawyer as Hodel, so that's how they knew each other and hooked up.

Women at that time often would get pregnant to blackmail rich men into providing financial support for the woman and child.

ES reproductive area/organs had been removed and replaced with dirt, grass, and her own excrement. This would cause decay/putridity rate to increase rapidly and make identification of a possible pregnancy/womb near impossible.



IMO.

I appreciate that we all have our own theories. Every one of them is, within reason, quite likely to be to close to the truth in some way.

Personally, I don't think this was a "hit". It's too pathological. Too intense. Why not just throw her in a river in a big sack weighted down with rocks? Why not bury her in a field? I don't believe a hired killer would take risks like that, nor would they IMO risk life in prison to stage a crime to this degree, if the object of it was to remove bodily evidence. Easier to set her on fire. You know?

I am not sure there's a huge conspiracy around this crime. I think the killer was just a grade-A psycho who chose his victim carefully and then had the time and space in which to indulge his compulsions and desires.

 

[December]

I AM NOT SPREADING A RUMOR THANK YOU VERY MUCH. If it's false and you know for a fact it is then u cleared that up . All i was doing was repeating something i read .If i was the first person to EVER say it which clearly iam not then that would be spreading rumors however even you said that a medical examiner was suggest such some time ago so he would be the one that was spreading a rumour ..

I think the other poster was accusing the defunct L.A. Times of spreading rumors. Not you or the M.E.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I appreciate that we all have our own theories. Every one of them is, within reason, quite likely to be to close to the truth in some way.

Personally, I don't think this was a "hit". It's too pathological. Too intense. Why not just throw her in a river in a big sack weighted down with rocks? Why not bury her in a field? I don't believe a hired killer would take risks like that, nor would they IMO risk life in prison to stage a crime to this degree, if the object of it was to remove bodily evidence. Easier to set her on fire. You know?

I am not sure there's a huge conspiracy around this crime. I think the killer was just a grade-A psycho who chose his victim carefully and then had the time and space in which to indulge his compulsions and desires.

I think that was exactly the point IMHO to make it look like a homicidal pathological spectacle - overshadowing any potential clue/indication that it might have been a hit. In my opinion that is the ultimate sociopath - someone who could conjure up the publics perception of a singular psycho killer and fear monger the public into confusion - all in order to cover an organized crime hit.

They had to do something during her disposal to lessen the likelihood of her internal reproductive organs being intact/present. If paid to make ensure that the medical examiner could not test for a possible pregnancy/womb present, I can see a homicidal doctor involved in organized crime circuits to think up ES's demise.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I AM NOT SPREADING A RUMOR THANK YOU VERY MUCH. If it's false and you know for a fact it is then u cleared that up . All i was doing was repeating something i read .If i was the first person to EVER say it which clearly iam not then that would be spreading rumors however even you said that a medical examiner was suggest such some time ago so he would be the one that was spreading a rumour ..

That assertion that she lacks a reproductive opening/canal/organs was a rumor put out on the Internet. There is no official citing from the case records of this being true.

And as the poster above me asserted, I was not saying you are spreading rumors. I am sorry you misunderstood and Perhaps I did not elaborate fully/correctly.

I simply was stating that the theory she had no reproductive orifice was a rumor propagated online. There are no court/LE records to indicate so.

I have touched on this extensively earlier in the thread.

 

[Ausgirl]

In the course of sleuthing many other crimes, I've studied hitmen of various types, including the psychopathic killers favoured by certain mob elements.

While dismemberment is an aspect of some of those crimes, it's always for the sake of avoiding ID of the body, or brutal chopping up for the sake of easy disposal. Or the results of torture. Nowhere have I seen such highly ritualised post-mortem behaviour in a hit.

Such behaviuour is relatively common, however, in the crimes of sadistic psychopathic killers. No attempt was made to hide Betty's identity. She was dismembered, but the body parts are displayed together.. She was brutalised and dehumanised and degraded, after death.

I simply cannot at all see a hit here. I promise, I am not just being contrary.. If there's similar crime scenes definitely linked to a hit, I'd be more than happy to say I'm wrong - but I cannot find a single one.

Why bother to stage a body in this elaborate manner, I guess is the question. Why bother to make a such a horrible spectacle of it, if the purpose of the murder was entirely practical, ie, to hide evidence of some kind? Why take such risks? When there's dozens of other ways to make sure her remains would never be discovered. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

At a stretch, I'd say maybe Russian mob (they are famously brutal and like sending 'messages')- if Betty was ten kinds of tangled up with their illegal activities... and if they had a real psycho working for them...

Or those people who owned the property were involved in some way.. and the body was a message for them. But that, in my mind, is all a giant stretch to fit the theory of a hit.

 

[December]

There are a lot of weird rumors about E.S. Some say she was a prostitute. I always sort of believed that one, but it seems not to be true. Some say she was a lesbian. This apparently is absolutely not true. I think because, legally, you can't defame the dead people just said whatever they wanted at various times. Years go by and it is hard to tell sensational articles from real articles.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything... I'm just saying, weird things have been extensively printed about this case. If you look at a list of them, they can't all be true. Although there are so many that out of sheer probablity a few must be. (I mean the rules of probability, or statistics... not very clearly put.)

It's hard to know what to think or believe with this case. But, the weird thing about it is it has been that way from the start just based on the way her body was found.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

In the course of sleuthing many other crimes, I've studied hitmen of various types, including the psychopathic killers favoured by certain mob elements.

While dismemberment is an aspect of some of those crimes, it's always for the sake of avoiding ID of the body, or brutal chopping up for the sake of easy disposal. Or the results of torture. Nowhere have I seen such highly ritualised post-mortem behaviour in a hit.

Such behaviuour is relatively common, however, in the crimes of sadistic psychopathic killers. No attempt was made to hide Betty's identity. She was dismembered, but the body parts are displayed together.. She was brutalised and dehumanised and degraded, after death.

I simply cannot at all see a hit here. I promise, I am not just being contrary.. If there's similar crime scenes definitely linked to a hit, I'd be more than happy to say I'm wrong - but I cannot find a single one.

Why bother to stage a body in this elaborate manner, I guess is the question. Why bother to make a such a horrible spectacle of it, if the purpose of the murder was entirely practical, ie, to hide evidence of some kind? Why take such risks? When there's dozens of other ways to make sure her remains would never be discovered. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

At a stretch, I'd say maybe Russian mob (they are famously brutal and like sending 'messages')- if Betty was ten kinds of tangled up with their illegal activities... and if they had a real psycho working for them...

Or those people who owned the property were involved in some way.. and the body was a message for them. But that, in my mind, is all a giant stretch to fit the theory of a hit.

I totally agree, but what if in this situation the psychopathic killer also was able to get his sick fantasies out on an organized hit?

Hodel got busted for incest charges when he had been doing inappropriate things to his own daughter. His defense lawyer in that case was the same defense lawyer as Bugsy. Also same defense lawyer as marilyn monroe. He certainly had a tie in with other criminals IMO if he had to seek criminal defense representation.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

There are a lot of weird rumors about E.S. Some say she was a prostitute. I always sort of believed that one, but it seems not to be true. Some say she was a lesbian. This apparently is absolutely not true. I think because, legally, you can't defame the dead people just said whatever they wanted at various times. Years go by and it is hard to tell sensational articles from real articles.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything... I'm just saying, weird things have been extensively printed about this case. If you look at a list of them, they can't all be true. Although there are so many that out of sheer probablity a few must be.

It's hard to know what to think or believe with this case. But, the weird thing about it is it has been that way from the start just based on the way her body was found.

Have you ever seen that old movie "The Gold diggers of 1943" about the women who all lived together during the depression era and would share high priced outfits (each girl had one they would rotate) in order to go out and trick men into thinking they were of a similar economic ilk, only to get pregnant by the men or Marry them to find financial security?

They wernt necessarily escorts at all, but during a time of great national debt and financial insecurity, many women resorted to fooling men the way the gold diggers of 1943 did in the film.

Fools Gold, I call women of that era that resorted to such schemes, bc Fools fell for them.

I feel ES was a Fools Gold type of girl. Faked it til she made it (almost made it) not only in the entertainment arena, but the financial arena as well.

This thread is getting really interesting now w good contributors

Thanks guys.

 

[December]

Have you ever seen that old movie "The Gold diggers of 1943" about the women who all lived together during the depression era and would share high priced outfits (each girl had one they would rotate) in order to go out and trick men into thinking they were of a similar economic ilk, only to get pregnant by the men or Marry them to find financial security?

They wernt necessarily escorts at all, but during a time of great national debt and financial insecurity, many women resorted to fooling men the way the gold diggers of 1943 did in the film.

Fools Gold, I call women of that era that resorted to such schemes, bc Fools fell for them.

I feel ES was a Fools Gold type of girl. Faked it til she made it (almost made it) not only in the entertainment arena, but the financial arena as well.

This thread is getting really interesting now w good contributors

Thanks guys.

I see what you mean. I think that ties two of the rumors together. The lesbian one comes from, from what I read, her sharing clothes with another woman. Which, in my albeit limited experience, tends to be a little more of a straight girl thing. The two lesbians are just trying to look good for each other while the straight girl swapping clothes and jewelry with a friend is trying to dazzle a crowd.

ETA
I have shared a lot of clothes and accessories. LOL, I'm not a Fool's Gold girl, but we all wanted to look ... what would they have said in E.S.'s day? Swell? Anyway, since I think the LAPD was 99.9% men, I guess this would be confusing behavior. 'why wear her blouse, you have your own blouse?'

 

[Ausgirl]

I totally agree, but what if in this situation the psychopathic killer also was able to get his sick fantasies out on an organized hit?

Hodel got busted for incest charges when he had been doing inappropriate things to his own daughter. His defense lawyer in that case was the same defense lawyer as Bugsy. Also same defense lawyer as marilyn monroe. He certainly had a tie in with other criminals IMO if he had to seek criminal defense representation.

If Hodel is responsible for Betty's murder, and I don't discount at all that possibility right now, then I think she would have been his, alone. This murder was somebody's sick fantasy come true...

If the object was simply to hide a pregnancy, why not burn her, bury her in concrete, throw her ripped up body to the sharks? Less risk, way less risk of having the secret discovered... and I can't see any mob men saying "Okay, let's park here for half an hour while this guy takes a dump in the body and has his way with it..."

So I'm saying Hodel-as-killer is a feasible theory, given that he was a bit of a *advertiser censored*. A hit? Not so much. This was, IMO, highly personal.

And as for rumours - I am betting that if the corpse was not so violated, Betty would not be the pregnant conspiracy victim/a lesbian/a hooker/ anything else. Like the string of other woman murdered in the area during that period, she'd be the victim of a psycho, the end, story fades...

 

[December]

I thought the excrement in her body was due to her being cut in half? As in it was hers. It just was in the wrong places due to her having been cut in half.