CA - Five Ucar family members found dead in San Clemente home, 25 May 2008

[JBean]

Ugh...that would not be a normal indoor temp. I really feel for the family members that entered the home and for the people that have had to process the bodies.

JBean, you said before that homes in that enclave aren't selling as easily as some others in the area. I would think that this might make the house even more difficult to sell.

Well high end houses seem to be holding their value and selling better than any other market here right now. But this neighborhood flattened out a bit over the years due to the slippage issues. But, as you know, any house in any area that has had death in it always becomes a tough sell.

 

[JBean]

Clemente family has friend asking, 'Did somebody flip out?'
Doting, devout and protective family, found wearing all black.

The inseparable twin sisters. The doting parents. A cautious family.
Four days after five members of a San Clemente family were discovered dead -- all dressed in black -- a portrait of a religious, loving but overprotective clan began to emerge through interviews with those who knew the Ucars.
The Turkish Armenian family quietly went on with its life inside a gated neighborhood overlooking the Pacific Ocean

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/...RecommendedOnly=0&oncommentsPage=2#slComments

 

[Tom'sGirl]

You would also think there would be a suicide note.

SQ, in one article it said "Authorities wouldn't say if there was a note left behind."

 

[Tom'sGirl]

Since we now know the parents sustained gunshot wounds, and two guns were found near their bodies, could it be possible the twins and the grandmother were poisoned and the the parents shot one another ?

 

[JBean]

Since we now know the parents sustained gunshot wounds, and two guns were found near their bodies, could it be possible the twins and the grandmother were poisoned and the the parents shot one another ?

The tox reports will tell the tale. It just seems to me that since the girls were in bed and the granny was in the lounger they were probably placed there as they didn't feel well from poison.
The parents is anyone's guess.

 

[SuziQ]

TG, it sure make you wonder doesn't it? A cod by gunshot would be apparent at autopsy regardless of decomp. And yet the ME is waiting on tox screens.

 

[SuziQ]

lol Jbean, we are thinking along the same lines.

 

[JBean]

TG, it sure make you wonder doesn't it? A cod by gunshot would be apparent at autopsy regardless of decomp. And yet the ME is waiting on tox screens.

HI SuziQ. The report on John and Ken today went over why a gunshot is not apparent when the bodies have reached the level of decomposition these bodies had reached. It was rally interesting. I am going to see if i can find the podcast. brb.

 

[JBean]

this should be it:
scroll down in John and Ken's column until today at the 4 o clock hour. Strange deaths:

http://www.kfi640.com/pages/podcasting/

 

[Tom'sGirl]

this should be it:
scroll down in John and Ken's column until today at the 4 o clock hour. Strange deaths:

http://www.kfi640.com/pages/podcasting/

That was interesting, however they were able to tell the parents had sustained gunshot wounds, maybe head-shots???

John & Ken were only off on one thing, the twins were not attending college as they had already completed, but were going to 'walk the walk' in June.

 

[philamena]

Sounds like you all are right. If only 2 were shot, the other 3 famioly members could have been poisioned.

No bullet wounds were found on the other three bodies, nor has a cause of death been determined, Guidice said. Toxicology results are due in about six weeks. Officials say they do not believe any outsiders are involved in the incident that has left the five dead.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/ucar-family-authorities-2054034-manas-guidice?slideshow=1

 

[JBean]

That was interesting, however they were able to tell the parents had sustained gunshot wounds, maybe head-shots???

John & Ken were only off on one thing, the twins were not attending college as they had already completed, but were going to 'walk the walk' in June.

I used to follow their reports every afternoon on Laci. They were often wrong on little details like that. I even tried calling them once to set them straight lol. I considered calling them this afternoon to set them straight on that, but then i came to my senses

 

[trixie]

Maybe they were all wearing black because there was a death of a family member in Turkey?
There's just something about the way the girls were laid out on the bed. Something is nagging me about that and I can't put my finger on it. Also the grandmother, who is the maternal grandmother, was found sitting on a chaise lounge. Sitting? I wonder if her legs were outstretched as you normally sit on a chaise lounge or if she was sitting sideways and slumped over.
To me it sounds like there was indeed a note. I think LE already knows who did what, they just can't say until all the test results are back and conclusions are made by the coroner or whoever does that part.
It just seems to me like it was done in an orderly way. First the girls, then the grandmother, then maybe the other parent came home and found them and one had a gun and the other one went for the gun he/she was keeping in the closet. The parents were found in the closet of the bedroom. I imagine it to be a large walk-in closet. I dunno, just some thoughts. This is a strange case. Thanks everbody for the updates!

 

[shadowraiths]

I think the family is Armenian and, if so, are most likely Christian, especially considering the girls are wearing crosses in their school pictures. So, I wonder what the deal was with the mother going to eat lunch with them every day?

From the link that philamena posted:

The Turkish Armenian family quietly went on with its life inside a gated neighborhood overlooking the Pacific Ocean.

[...]

Margrit Ucar had lunch almost daily with the twins when they were in elementary school.

[...]

Margrit, Rosen said, was more reserved. A devout Christian, she talked about Jesus and prayed a lot, she said.​

 

[JBean]

Maybe they were all wearing black because there was a death of a family member in Turkey?
There's just something about the way the girls were laid out on the bed. Something is nagging me about that and I can't put my finger on it. Also the grandmother, who is the maternal grandmother, was found sitting on a chaise lounge. Sitting? I wonder if her legs were outstretched as you normally sit on a chaise lounge or if she was sitting sideways and slumped over.
To me it sounds like there was indeed a note. I think LE already knows who did what, they just can't say until all the test results are back and conclusions are made by the coroner or whoever does that part.
It just seems to me like it was done in an orderly way. First the girls, then the grandmother, then maybe the other parent came home and found them and one had a gun and the other one went for the gun he/she was keeping in the closet. The parents were found in the closet of the bedroom. I imagine it to be a large walk-in closet. I dunno, just some thoughts. This is a strange case. Thanks everbody for the updates!

I just wonder if they were poisoned and as they fell ill, they were encouraged to go lay down while help was *summoned*

 

[texasgirl]

Just a few thoughts on this being a suicide pact---

It seems that it would have been easier to shoot the twins and grandmother and then the parents poison themselves than to shoot EACH OTHER. Right? I mean, if you had a pact--would you poison the other people and then plan to shoot each other at the end? Hmmm...

Not to mention, if this was a pact, you would think that all family members would have been found right in the same area instead of some in the bedroom and two in the closet. I mean, if they'd all agreed on this, surely they would have had reason to want to be together at the very end.

I definitely think something is fishy about the black clothing but I can't quite put my finger on what's bothering me about that. Also, I think it's kind of weird that the twins always dressed alike and were in their 20's. Seems strange to me.

Just a few ramblings I wanted to mention....

 

[trixie]

Maybe it's not a suicide pact, but rather one person decided to commit suicide and just took everyone who lived in the house with him/her. For what little we know it sounds to me more like one person did the deed on grandma, and twins, and the other person came home and saw it, ran to the closet to retrieve a gun for protection and the other person caught up to him/her in the closet and possibly they shot each other?
I don't know of course, it's all speculation right now. I just think it's so sad especially for the twins.
I also had the thought that maybe if it were a suicide, that they, granma and twins and the one other person were all re-dressed in black by the killer after they were dead.
Just some thoughts. I hope we get some more information today.

 

[philamena]

I'm interested in finding out whose fingerprints are on the 2 guns.
One set of prints or 2 different sets of prints....:waitasec:

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Hi again, everyone

Philamena - about the f/prints, yes me too - very interested to know! Another addictive thread (JBean, sorry, I roared when you posted what that "other" poster sent you via pm. If ever a pm was way off line. Lordi-Be...)

Please tell me, dear W/S friends, if I'm totally off-beat in wondering about a whole new slant on this gruesome scene. All the years and the various cases here have made anything possible, lol:

OK: The 3 family members, 2 of whom were known to be brothers, who first alerted Law Enforcement. We know they did not give consent to go in and LE did their job as far as the law allowed them to. Some 2 or 3 weeks had gone by, with no word from their cousins/family. If it were my family, I'd sure know a lot more about them than wondering if they were simply out of town. Odd.

I'd be around a lot earlier and breaking down the doors myself. Chris Porco came to mind... (groan). What if this is one of those hideous cases of staging a murder/suicide for inheritance? Pray, dear God, that I am wrong, but something is certainly not up - least of all the black clothes and "set scene". A murder suicide is usually instant - and the murderer chases down his family - though Chris Benoit seemed to have hung around after he did what he did.

Here's a totally hypothetical call to add to other thoughts:

What if the twins and grandma were fed GHB and then suffocated after a while.... we know GHB cannot be traced after a few hours and maybe to be sure, the unusually long period of time lapsed intentionally? Or ... the 3 in the lower part of the house may have been strangled (if there were shots, LE would know from blood spatter outside of decomposition ... if they were shot where they were found, of course).

Perhaps mom and dad were trying to hide in the closet (I thought of Shawn Bentley - ugh) and were shot and the gun / s left in such a position that, at first sight, this looked like a straight forward murder/suicide?

The value of the home; the jewelry shop; the cars; the likelihood of insurance policies and the intelligence of this "quiet, but cautious" family could be a lure to desperate extended family. Especially with grandma (bless her soul) "out of the way" it means the immediate family had been eliminated.

Just a thought - and, yes, an horrific one. Am not pointing fingers at the 3 who tried to break in - there may be other people that have yet to come under the radar. Perhaps a relative with a deep-seated revenge, especially if the strict father had banned him/her from his family?? Nevertheless, tragic; harmless lives lost - and those girls are the split-peas of their mother: beautiful.

Something fishy ... and the stench is lingering. Thoughts? I'm going back under my rock - you guys are as always, awesome with your threads, posts and snippets.

THANK-YOUUUUU :blowkiss:

 

[Tom'sGirl]

Perhaps mom and dad were trying to hide in the closet

I think, when they refer to the closet off the Master Bedroom it's not what most of us think as the standard closet, but rather a large walk-in/dressing room type.

ETA: This is just a speculation on my part!