CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

[Poppyflower]

Another car went off a cliff: http://www.wfla.com/live

 

[fridaybaker]

I know this will not be a popular opinion, because it's become "necessary" to demonize Sarah and Jen Hart's every move, every word, every picture, every perceived or ascribed motivation. They are now morphed from "saviors" and role models, into evil personified. I sure don't think that's the truth, either way. They were neither saviors and role models, nor evil personified, IMO. But that won't play well for most people, because it seems necessary to box them in as "all evil, all the time" so we can hate them *more* for driving off a cliff with the kids, who were isolated and exquisitely vulnerable.

To be sure, I think they were highly dysfunctional women who may have been "fine" together alone (before kids), but devolved into chaotic dysfunction as parents of far too many adopted kids with horrific and extremely difficult backgrounds. To me, that is the issue that precipitated the dysfunctional and chaotic years that ended up with Jen driving off the cliff. There was far too much willingness by adoption authorities to allow them to adopt SO MANY kids from such awful backgrounds, at their young ages--20s-- with limited life experience.

Frankly, the first three were WAY too many for Jen and Sarah, IMO. They were NOT good candidates for adopting children from that kind of background-- and I don't need a social work degree to make that observation. Adopting one child with that kind of background would have been about right (if at all), for 2 women who were far too young to have much life experience in their 20s, and NO parenting experience at all. Keep in mind that at their age, they would not have been eligible for international adoption at all in their 20s through most accredited, legitimate avenues. (And not just because they were lesbians-- but because of their age, length of marriage, lack of prior parenting experience, and apparently meager financial situation.) They did not appear to be open to using multiple professional resources to help the kids, and do not appear to have sought advice in parenting these kids from very difficlut backgrounds. They appear to be "winging it" with their ideas about what constitutes healthy family life, enforced isolation, "homeschooling" (we have no idea if, or to what extent they did any actual schooling beyond reading pleasure books), and their ideas about socialization and friendships (festivals, rallies, and protests), as well as their ideas about effective discipline and encouragement. Clearly, we can infer that Jen and Sarah did not appear to encourage or nurture any of the kids as individuals (by their report, as well as their advocates and critics), but related to the kids mostly as a group. (As they were taught to as teachers in their educational programs, IMO, which seems to be the only experience with kids that they had before the first foster child.)

I personally don't think they were "all evil, all the time". Nor do I believe hyperbole such as that they were "starving" the kids. I do believe they probably withheld, or controlled food choices and volume, which all parents do to some extent. I also believe they may have used food withholding as a "punishment"-- but without knowing WHAT they may have withheld, or when, or how long, I cannot buy into the fervor that they were "starving" the children. There is no evidence, none at all, that indicates "starving" children. Many, many, many adopted kids have "food issues", whether or not they had actual food insecurity at any point in their lives. Many, if not most, adopted kids from foster care or institutions (overseas) also have some degree of malnourishment, affecting their global development.

I don't believe the "eating garbage/ eating out of the garbage" story as it has been relayed by Jen about foster child "Lee". Nor do I fully believe Lee's story in the Seattle Times as "complete truth". Lee's story is decidedly one-sided, designed to present Lee herself, by her own words, in her own best image-- and that means she presented the story as idyllic, and herself in "full control" of her "out of control" behavior (she just called up the social worker and checked herself into foster care, like checking into a hotel on a vacation). Then everything was rosy and perfect, right up until evil Sarah and Jen "dumped" her at a "therapy" appointment. Just nothing at all sounds reasonable, plausible, or fully truthful about how that played out, IMO.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...rtbreak-though-not-the-way-some-might-expect/

As an example of the "eating out of the garbage"-- that could be viewed/ slanted/ presented in both an innocous way, as well as a pathological way, depending on the reality of the situation. For example, last week I threw away a bag of chips that still had a handful left at the bottom of the bag, but had been open a while. In my estimation, it was stale, and beyond it's best flavor. One of my kids pulled open the trash compartment in the kitchen, saw the bag, and said "mom-- those are still good, and we don't have any more chips right now!" Whereupon she retrieved the bag and ate them. We were both laughing. She happens to be adopted. She is also quite thin. Also happens to have a very healthy appetite, and eats healthy food most kids wouldn't eat (tofu and veggies for breakfast regularly).

So if one wanted to villainize me as a bad parent, and my teen as dysfunctional about food because she's adopted, one could say I wasn't feeding her enough calories, was "withholding food" because I didn't have any more chips in the house, and she is too thin, she was "starving", and "eating out of the garbage." Or a reasonable person would have laughed that a teenager with an healthy appetite and desire for junk food rescued a half empty bag of stale chips out of the trash, and went on to eat a healthy dinner.

See how that works? Perspective is everything.

Yes, Jen Hart definitely appears to have intentionally driven off a cliff with the kids in the car, after getting yet another visit from CPS. I don't think that means she and Sarah beat and starved the kids all the time. For whatever reason, they were prone to circle their wagons and isolate themselves and the kids to cope, rather than reaching out for help, and allowing the kids to grow and develop friendships and interests outside of the family. Their frustration at containing the ever growing, and very needy teens (psychologically, socially, and developmentally) created a perfect storm where Jen (and possibly Sarah) could not admit "failure" and reach out and accept help. So they chose to drive off a cliff instead. I actually do not believe they ever "hated" the kids-- they simply had no idea how to REALLY connect to them as wounded children with deep needs, and how to parent them. They knew how to relate to them as a group, as a teacher would do, and to take them on field trips. They had a "savior" mentality, IMO, and co-used the kids to massage and groom their own image on social media. They "shared" their hobbies and passions for politics and social justice with the kids, who were a captive audience who could not refuse or opt out of these ideas and opinions-- and had no skills or tools to voice any different ideas, IMO. IMO, what is crystal clear from all we have learned is that Jen and Sarah did not know how to PARENT individuals who came from very troubled backgrounds. That intense and private frustration, and and equally intense need to save face, IMO, is what led to Jen driving off the cliff. Not "evilness".

After having read all that, I say yes, "evilness". Murdering six children is evil. Whether it stems from rage or simple narcissism.

 

[Zelda1010]

The very last thing the two adult Harts tried to do was to raise up children to be healthy, happy, independent human individuals. The silencing and ultimate extinguishing of these six vibrant, potential-filled youngsters breaks my heart, and the betrayal they suffered from the legal and child welfare system, which never bothered to listen to them or to assess their inability to thrive in an adoptive placement, absolutely enrages me. Alarms were sounded, repeatedly, but no agency bothered to look beyond the glib words of the ‘saviors’ to whom these youngsters were entrusted, and investigate what their ‘salvation’ consisted of, exactly.

Not one article I have read about the Harts even mentions any of the six children’s individual personalities, achievements, or interests. The only child we have learned anything at all about is Devonte, the family’s golden child, apparently chosen by his moms to be the family’s designated ‘star’ – and we know something of the individual he was not because of the famously staged photo op he was subject to, but through his genuinely heroic efforts to find help and food for himself and his siblings. This family was all about its adult members and their carefully curated public image, an image maintained through the performance skills of their harshly trained troupe of coerced young actors.

I don't know if this helps prove your point or not, but a couple of articles from people who had personal interactions and their mention, or not, of the other children.


Max Ribner struggled to describe the others in this article.
www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article208294694.html
“Devonte was definitely the leader of the group,” Ribner said, referring to the six kids. The trumpet player had occasion to observe them closely during group music lessons in his home. But he had a hard time describing the others. “A lot of them were quiet.”

The owners of the farm seem like they may be able to describe each child, if asked.
http://www.kptv.com/story/37927858/hart-family-volunteered-at-sherwood-farm-and-food-pantry
“It was the sweetest bunch, and a wonderful diversity from outspoken Devonte to shy, timid Abigail, who just loved reading,” Boggs said.

 

[musemoon]

I disagree with almost everything in this post.

I think it is entirely possible for successful, loving transracial adoptions, and I think MANY successful, loving, competent transracial adoptions exist-- and many more will occur.

I also think it's possible for a gay couple to successfully parent adopted kid/s of many different backgrounds, IF the couple is otherwise very mentally healthy, and psychosocially competent, AND willing to seek and accept professional help with parenting kids from difficult backgrounds.

I'm not ignoring racial aspects, but I don't ascribe "all" the problems with parenting that occurred here to some nebulous ideas about systemic racism and perpetual victimization of AAs in America. Culture matters-- it's how one chooses to acknowledge and incorporate culture and ethnicity that makes culture and ethnicity healthy, or dysfunctional. Ascribing to a perception of "perpetual victimization" can never be a healthy approach, IMO, nor produce healthy adults. Perpetual victimization is toxic when it is a lifestyle mentality, and can never lead to self actualized adults.

But I do recognize that there are many who view all transracial adoptions thru only a victimized racial lens. I just believe that viewing every transracial adoption as a symptom or expression of toxic race relations throughout history is an fringy extremist, unrealistic perspective.

People can acknowledge and understand their own difficult background, and ALSO grow up healthy and productive, moving towards self actualization. No one is ever a perpetual victim unless they decide to live that way.

WOW yes yes yes!!!!!! I want to share this just as a matter of perspective.... I do see and understand racism to be a cause of poverty, abuse, neglect...etc. I see it, I hear it. I don't want it for my children...at all. We have open adoptions and my children's birth family can see how they are growing and reach out to us any time they want. We do have safety measures in place for the non appropriate family members...but so too do the other biological family members. We are in the wider perspective a "team" because the bio family members knew of the struggles that lead to the adoption of my children and in our case, adoption was the safest and best answer. I want my children to be empowered, proud (of skin, hair, personality, abilities, intellect ect) We are not rich....but we are happy. I have a severely special needs daughter and even she is happy...we are not happy all the time, in fact we often struggle, but the goal is wellness and wholeness so they can have an empowered and healthy future and god willing help to socially evolve humanity to lessen the divide of race. By outward appearances, I thought the Harts had this same philosophy....and now I see perhaps they didn't....BUT...I wanted to share.

I wrote "open to race" on my adoption paperwork (I now have two black children)
My placement worker was...black.
Of the four social workers I have had....three were black
Of the three therapists we have in our home.....three are black. (for one child)
Of the two therapist in our home for myself and the other child....two are Latina
Of the two adoption social workers I have had....two were black.
Of the twelve adoption professionals I have worked with in the past, three are now my friends, two are black and one is white with a black husband and biracial kids.

This is what our transracial adoption looks like.

 

[Poppyflower]

Live coverage of a another crash off a cliff in CA: http://www.wfla.com/live

 

[Electric Sheep]

There seems to be a lot of interest in the circumstances of the removal of Devonte and his siblings from their birth family but none in the removal of Markus and his siblings from theirs. I guess even in death they come in last.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

 

[Gardenista]

Another car went off a cliff: http://www.wfla.com/live

Wow!!

 

[bluesneakers]

Another car went off a cliff: http://www.wfla.com/live

Where is this?

eta:
Montara State Beach, San Mateo County

The California Highway Patrol reported the accident on Highway 1 between Montara State Beach and Gray Whale Cove at 7:52 a.m.
Video of rescue: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...-plunges-off-highway-1-cliff-at-devils-slide/

 

[Holl]

I really wish that I could understand the logic of those that think that these 6 kids came wired as normal with no issues whatsoever. Before even reaching the Hart household.

I do not even think any psychology background is needed to truly understand this.

Smh

 

[Doghairrules]

There seems to be a lot of interest in the circumstances of the removal of Devonte and his siblings from their birth family but none in the removal of Markus and his siblings from theirs. I guess even in death they come in last.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

I suspect that is only due to a lack of information about those circumstances.

 

[kizzykat]

Another car went off a cliff: http://www.wfla.com/live

OT: Rescue video here, driver taken to hospital: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...-plunges-off-highway-1-cliff-at-devils-slide/

 

[Breezie]

There seems to be a lot of interest in the circumstances of the removal of Devonte and his siblings from their birth family but none in the removal of Markus and his siblings from theirs. I guess even in death they come in last.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

We do not know if they have figured out what happened from the news. If they do know what happened, no one has spoken to the media yet.

 

[Sleuth99]

That is just not how it works....at all. Not even close.
It takes soooo much to separate siblings. And there are checks and balance systems in place in order to do so. But I could tell you horror stories of kids that should have been separated and it happened too late or not at all. And kids who could have gotten homes when they were younger, languished in foster care, often with a LOT of placements, instead.

I want to make this clear. I don't think anyone can just come off the street and adopt and that there aren't systems in place intended to provide checks and balances. I'm saying that the Hart women were "somehow" able to circumnavigate and dodge a lot of things and make it work for them.

They were one couple. I'm not judging all couples who adopt based on the Hart women. Is that the concern here?


IMO

 

[Swirlz]

I really wish that I could understand the logic of those that think that these 6 kids came wired as normal with no issues whatsoever. Before even reaching the Hart household.

I do not even think any psychology background is needed to truly understand this.

Smh

I haven't seen anywhere where anyone has hesitated to say that the kids had issues. Practically every other post is about the difficulties that would have been involved in caring for the children. I'm not sure what you mean by *normal*.

 

[Zelda1010]

In this article the foster daughter reported the Harts were expecting a boy, a girl, and a baby on the way. This would mean that it is possible Hannah was 12 in August 2017.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...m_medium=email&utm_campaign=article_title_1.1

This report lists Hannah as being 16:

Sarah and Jennifer Hart, both age 38, were killed, and children Markis, 19, Jeremiah, 14, and Abigail, 14, also died. Three of the children — Hannah Hart, 16; and Sierra Hart, 15; and Devonte Hart, 15 — remain missing.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...sf/2018/04/sarah_hart_sent_alarming_3_am.html

I sure wish we could make better sense of the ages of the youngest kids. I suppose it will be nailed down eventually.

 

[Sleuth99]

WOW yes yes yes!!!!!! I want to share this just as a matter of perspective.... I do see and understand racism to be a cause of poverty, abuse, neglect...etc. I see it, I hear it. I don't want it for my children...at all. We have open adoptions and my children's birth family can see how they are growing and reach out to us any time they want. We do have safety measures in place for the non appropriate family members...but so too do the other biological family members. We are in the wider perspective a "team" because the bio family members knew of the struggles that lead to the adoption of my children and in our case, adoption was the safest and best answer. I want my children to be empowered, proud (of skin, hair, personality, abilities, intellect ect) We are not rich....but we are happy. I have a severely special needs daughter and even she is happy...we are not happy all the time, in fact we often struggle, but the goal is wellness and wholeness so they can have an empowered and healthy future and god willing help to socially evolve humanity to lessen the divide of race. By outward appearances, I thought the Harts had this same philosophy....and now I see perhaps they didn't....BUT...I wanted to share.

I wrote "open to race" on my adoption paperwork (I now have two black children)
My placement worker was...black.
Of the four social workers I have had....three were black
Of the three therapists we have in our home.....three are black. (for one child)
Of the two therapist in our home for myself and the other child....two are Latina
Of the two adoption social workers I have had....two were black.
Of the twelve adoption professionals I have worked with in the past, three are now my friends, two are black and one is white with a black husband and biracial kids.

This is what our transracial adoption looks like.

Just because there are Black professionals (or other non/white people ) involved doesn't mean racism is absent. Black people (or other non/white people ) can help uphold the affects and institutionalized power of racism against black people (or other non/white people ) too.


IMO

 

[Holl]

I haven't seen anywhere where anyone has hesitated to say that the kids had issues. Practically every other post is about the difficulties that would have been involved in caring for the children. I'm not sure what you mean by *normal*.

Previous, many previous posts, are all about these kids how they should be eating normal, socializing, driving, working, homeschooling is no good / is isoloation, kids not playing basketball or riding bikes, or even not being loud and noisy.

Normal meaning.......normal. Normal pregnancies, normal birth, normal parents and upbringing, normal family and stability. No tradegy and no sibling and parental separation.

 

[Sleuth99]

There seems to be a lot of interest in the circumstances of the removal of Devonte and his siblings from their birth family but none in the removal of Markus and his siblings from theirs. I guess even in death they come in last.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

Did you see anything in the news yet? I don't think anyone here was able to share leads. I'm interested for sure!


IMO

 

[debbiegarcia36]

It is clear from this older foster daughter's account that the Harts really did see her and all the other kids as items. Oh, the ones we special ordered are in, take this one back to the store.

It's bizarre that they were so intolerant of Lee being a tomboy. You would think lesbian women would be more understanding of that, since lots of lesbians receive flack for dressing for comfort instead of style and so forth. I am wondering if they considered themselves apart from or superior to other gay people too, though.

Agree. They were Controlling, arrogant, entitled, self absorbed...they think everyone should be or think like they do.

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[fridaybaker]

I originally was curious about this, but my 11 year old fell backwards off a swing the other day, kneed herself in the face and knocked her teeth out at school. So it can happen.

Okay, of course it can happen! Children hurt themselves in myriad ways. However, that's about the strangest photo I've ever seen: It reminds me of the photos of her children with tee-shirts displaying skeletons on them. Or videos of the children in their.... UNDERWEAR. Photos and videos of the children dressed in various bizarre ways.

Mostly, though, the photo of the bloody tooth brings to mind my reaction when I first saw the viral photo of the boy offering free hugs: Horror! What parent would encourage or tolerate his child hugging people -strangers- indiscriminately? You "offer up" your child as a physical comfort to every one who wants him? I can only wonder at the vile beings that boy has physically embraced -the number of pedophiles, murderers, ****s, and just unsanitary people.

And I can also only wonder at the sense of "self" that must give a child. My parents weren't perfect, but I am so very glad that they instilled a sense of dignity about my person. It helped to form a complete sense of self that helped me to understand that I have inherent dignity as a child of God, and that my body/my person are not for everyone. A hug is something I give very few people, although an amiable smile or handshake is given to many. Wow. An embrace is so personal -something to be reserved for those close and dear.