CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

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The post about Hannahs teeth from Jens facebook. She claims Hannah was running around and fell over her own feet in the house. I will say this..having a little boy of my own (hes 9) they do tend to do this not intentionally but I know with mine at times he is being clumsy and just does not watch where he is going. It was worse when he was younger but even now he does this sometimes. Kids often when they get too excited dont pay attention so I would be half tempted to believe this store IF I didnt know better. Jen goes on to say Hannah was at the dentist this is the first lie she tells..we cant really assume how it happened was a lie because we weren't there and with this case I'm done assuming things but Jen did lie about Hannah being to the dentist or she did lie to the Dekalbs. Jen writes on fb how Hannahs at the dentist so yhey can see what can be done, she told the Dekalbs Hannah didnt want anything done about her teeth so which is the truth we may never know but Hannah in pictures speaks volumes. She is always looking so self concious with the tight lip smile then she goes on to say Hannah had to have the teeth removed at the dentist (she said Hannah fell at home and thats how the tooth came out regardless her photo of the tooth looks like Jen pulled it out) here comes the worst part a few hours later she says hannahs home resting and that she had to have the teeth removed and that shes gonna have no front teeth for a few WEEKS and that after that shed have a retainer with fake front teeth until she's 17. I highly doubt any of this was true or even happened. If it did I think the most that happened was they took Hannah to the dentist and never took her back. <modsnip>

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I forget what age my son was but he slipped on ice and hit his tooth in concrete. It did not come out, but he got an abcess and it was extracted by an oral surgeon. It was a tooth in the front but not the first one.

He had to wear braces and then he was to get a bridge.

I wonder if Hannah got a bridge and lost it. Maybe her punishment was to have no teeth. I can see no way a dentist would say leaving enpty spaces is ok. It causes all kinds of problems
 
Acting out means not acting according to their standards... doesn't necessarily mean misbehaving. Him being in prison for robbery doesn't have anything to do with this situation. Sleezy journalism. And the fact that they would leave one child behind shows to me that they were SHOPPING and had a list of wants and needs including younger children.

IMO

'Shopping?' Is that the term used now for potential adoptive parents looking at which children would make the best fit?

I think it makes sense that parents would make tough decisions like this. The eldest son, was 'acting out.' We don't know what he was doing exactly. But maybe the description of his behavior worried them enough that they decided they could not help him. Maybe they worried that he would have a negative influence on his younger siblings and prevent them from bonding with their new family?

Who doesn't have a list of 'wants and needs' when they set out to adopt a family of children?

I remember when we first filled out applications for adoption services. There was a checklist at the bottom of the page on 'Special Needs' children.

Check the box if you are open to this situation or that situation.

I checked YES for Downs syndrome, but didn't check the box for Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or Autism.

And sat there looking at the list, feeling awkward and uncomfortable being asked to make a cold or calculated decision like that.

But isn't it an important process? Shouldn't we, as potential parents, be asked to consider the potential options/situations and decide what we can handle and what we cannot?
 
In my original post, I mentioned that it looked to me like the photo had been edited to increase the contrasting of light/shadow significantly, which may be a reason the kids look so gaunt, but that if this is natural light, they just look underweight. Not sure why you removed that part from your repost, but I agree with you.

Emma.laurens, I'm sorry -I didn't mean to remove anything in my repost. I think I wasn't really commenting so much on your comment, but just my thoughts on the photo. Your points were much more in-depth, actually doing some analysis on the photo and I appreciate your taking the effort to do so.

I really can't offer anything more to what you said, because I agree that the editing may contribute to their looking gaunt. However, I guess I'm just putting my gut reaction on seeing the photo with the food issues described in news articles and here. Thanks for much for uploading the photo, and responding to my comment here.
 
Acting out means not acting according to their standards... doesn't necessarily mean misbehaving. Him being in prison for robbery doesn't have anything to do with this situation. Sleezy journalism. And the fact that they would leave one child behind shows to me that they were SHOPPING and had a list of wants and needs including younger children.



IMO

I agree - they were shopping and had something specific in mind from the start. I don't know what, but it's like they wanted their own little church with their own obedient followers.

It's so twisted I can't even wrap my head around it. Imagine collecting children for a project like this. Who did they think they were??
 
I know this will not be a popular opinion, because it's become "necessary" to demonize Sarah and Jen Hart's every move, every word, every picture, every perceived or ascribed motivation. They are now morphed from "saviors" and role models, into evil personified. I sure don't think that's the truth, either way. They were neither saviors and role models, nor evil personified, IMO. But that won't play well for most people, because it seems necessary to box them in as "all evil, all the time" so we can hate them *more* for driving off a cliff with the kids, who were isolated and exquisitely vulnerable.

To be sure, I think they were highly dysfunctional women who may have been "fine" together alone (before kids), but devolved into chaotic dysfunction as parents of far too many adopted kids with horrific and extremely difficult backgrounds. To me, that is the issue that precipitated the dysfunctional and chaotic years that ended up with Jen driving off the cliff. There was far too much willingness by adoption authorities to allow them to adopt SO MANY kids from such awful backgrounds, at their young ages--20s-- with limited life experience.

Frankly, the first three were WAY too many for Jen and Sarah, IMO. They were NOT good candidates for adopting children from that kind of background-- and I don't need a social work degree to make that observation. Adopting one child with that kind of background would have been about right (if at all), for 2 women who were far too young to have much life experience in their 20s, and NO parenting experience at all. Keep in mind that at their age, they would not have been eligible for international adoption at all in their 20s through most accredited, legitimate avenues. (And not just because they were lesbians-- but because of their age, length of marriage, lack of prior parenting experience, and apparently meager financial situation.) They did not appear to be open to using multiple professional resources to help the kids, and do not appear to have sought advice in parenting these kids from very difficlut backgrounds. They appear to be "winging it" with their ideas about what constitutes healthy family life, enforced isolation, "homeschooling" (we have no idea if, or to what extent they did any actual schooling beyond reading pleasure books), and their ideas about socialization and friendships (festivals, rallies, and protests), as well as their ideas about effective discipline and encouragement. Clearly, we can infer that Jen and Sarah did not appear to encourage or nurture any of the kids as individuals (by their report, as well as their advocates and critics), but related to the kids mostly as a group. (As they were taught to as teachers in their educational programs, IMO, which seems to be the only experience with kids that they had before the first foster child.)

I personally don't think they were "all evil, all the time". Nor do I believe hyperbole such as that they were "starving" the kids. I do believe they probably withheld, or controlled food choices and volume, which all parents do to some extent. I also believe they may have used food withholding as a "punishment"-- but without knowing WHAT they may have withheld, or when, or how long, I cannot buy into the fervor that they were "starving" the children. There is no evidence, none at all, that indicates "starving" children. Many, many, many adopted kids have "food issues", whether or not they had actual food insecurity at any point in their lives. Many, if not most, adopted kids from foster care or institutions (overseas) also have some degree of malnourishment, affecting their global development.

I don't believe the "eating garbage/ eating out of the garbage" story as it has been relayed by Jen about foster child "Lee". Nor do I fully believe Lee's story in the Seattle Times as "complete truth". Lee's story is decidedly one-sided, designed to present Lee herself, by her own words, in her own best image-- and that means she presented the story as idyllic, and herself in "full control" of her "out of control" behavior (she just called up the social worker and checked herself into foster care, like checking into a hotel on a vacation). Then everything was rosy and perfect, right up until evil Sarah and Jen "dumped" her at a "therapy" appointment. Just nothing at all sounds reasonable, plausible, or fully truthful about how that played out, IMO.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...rtbreak-though-not-the-way-some-might-expect/

As an example of the "eating out of the garbage"-- that could be viewed/ slanted/ presented in both an innocous way, as well as a pathological way, depending on the reality of the situation. For example, last week I threw away a bag of chips that still had a handful left at the bottom of the bag, but had been open a while. In my estimation, it was stale, and beyond it's best flavor. One of my kids pulled open the trash compartment in the kitchen, saw the bag, and said "mom-- those are still good, and we don't have any more chips right now!" Whereupon she retrieved the bag and ate them. We were both laughing. She happens to be adopted. She is also quite thin. Also happens to have a very healthy appetite, and eats healthy food most kids wouldn't eat (tofu and veggies for breakfast regularly).

So if one wanted to villainize me as a bad parent, and my teen as dysfunctional about food because she's adopted, one could say I wasn't feeding her enough calories, was "withholding food" because I didn't have any more chips in the house, and she is too thin, she was "starving", and "eating out of the garbage." Or a reasonable person would have laughed that a teenager with an healthy appetite and desire for junk food rescued a half empty bag of stale chips out of the trash, and went on to eat a healthy dinner.

See how that works? Perspective is everything.

Yes, Jen Hart definitely appears to have intentionally driven off a cliff with the kids in the car, after getting yet another visit from CPS. I don't think that means she and Sarah beat and starved the kids all the time. For whatever reason, they were prone to circle their wagons and isolate themselves and the kids to cope, rather than reaching out for help, and allowing the kids to grow and develop friendships and interests outside of the family. Their frustration at containing the ever growing, and very needy teens (psychologically, socially, and developmentally) created a perfect storm where Jen (and possibly Sarah) could not admit "failure" and reach out and accept help. So they chose to drive off a cliff instead. I actually do not believe they ever "hated" the kids-- they simply had no idea how to REALLY connect to them as wounded children with deep needs, and how to parent them. They knew how to relate to them as a group, as a teacher would do, and to take them on field trips. They had a "savior" mentality, IMO, and co-used the kids to massage and groom their own image on social media. They "shared" their hobbies and passions for politics and social justice with the kids, who were a captive audience who could not refuse or opt out of these ideas and opinions-- and had no skills or tools to voice any different ideas, IMO. IMO, what is crystal clear from all we have learned is that Jen and Sarah did not know how to PARENT individuals who came from very troubled backgrounds. That intense and private frustration, and and equally intense need to save face, IMO, is what led to Jen driving off the cliff. Not "evilness".

One of my best friends adopted three children, one at a time when she and her husband were in their 20’s. Of course it was 50 years ago. They had no parenting exeperience. The children were each of a different ethnicity. They are wonderful people as were my now deceased friends.

A lot of people who adopt have no other children. It is difficult to have people adopt a group of siblings . In this case, the kids could have stayed with relatives.But we know from information how children of POC are treated compared to whites. The information is startling.

I don’t know any parents who keep food from children. The whole concept is foreign to me. Although I have to say I hid Halloween candy they received ,but I do not consider candy food.

Maybe both Sarah and Jen grew up in homes that did not have much money so food was very precious and it had to be rationed. Maybe that was something totally normal.

With those two women who were college educated, they knew hitting children was wrong. I would be astounded if they were not exposed to mandated reporting as students. And in college they learn all about individual teaching to a student’s needs and their way of learning. Educafion nowadays is very focused on meeting the needs of each child.

When I retired in 2011, if had been several years where I had to have individual goals and methods of how to reach those goals with every child in my classroom.

We had a computer program where I had to enter data everyday. This was in Minnesota . I cannot imagine where in education teachers are taught that all children in a class are a group. It is not possible with kids at different levels and needs.
 
Just because there are Black professionals (or other non/white people ) involved doesn't mean racism is absent. Black people (or other non/white people ) can help uphold the affects and institutionalized power of racism against black people (or other non/white people ) too.


IMO

So it was racism against black people that was to blame for the children being removed?

Weren't some of the babies born with crack in their system? Is that racist to expect the children would be born free of hard drugs in their blood stream?

The black social workers and adoption workers are working hard, for little money, to try and PROTECT black children from abuse and neglect. They are not there to 'uphold the affects of institutionalized racism.'

They are there to give drug tests to newborns and scoop up the drug addicted babies and take them out of the abusers care. JMO
 
So it was racism against black people that was to blame for the children being removed?

Weren't some of the babies born with crack in their system? Is that racist to expect the children would be born free of hard drugs in their blood stream?

The black social workers and adoption workers are working hard, for little money, to try and PROTECT black children from abuse and neglect. They are not there to 'uphold the affects of institutionalized racism.'

They are there to give drug tests to newborns and scoop up the drug addicted babies and take them out of the abusers care. JMO


Not OP, but the real issue seems (to me) like it's that we know that the white parents were (and still are, at least by some) given the benefit of the doubt so many times.
 
In the press release about the body, it said an autopsy would he done Tuesday. But no word of that.
https://us12.campaign-archive.com/?u=d58e8d47c32727a999b3dde01&id=f1a3ac0802
The recovered body appears to be that of an African American Female but the age and a postitive identity could not be determined. An autopsy will be conducted on Tuesday and the cause of death is unknown. The Sheriff's Office is investigating the possibility that the body may be one of the two missing Hart girls but identification will most likely be done through DNA analysis, a process that can take several weeks.
 
Not OP, but the real issue seems (to me) like it's that we know that the white parents were (and still are, at least by some) given the benefit of the doubt so many times.

And so are black families. Look at how many children here in these cases of severe abuse, are allowed to stay with their abusers, until they end up being killed. It happens in ALL types of races. Many black parents are given the benefit of the doubt, over and over, until their child is eventually beaten to death, or goes missing. It is not just white families given the benefit of the doubt.

Like the little girl found dead under the living room couch. Her mother had been reported a dozen times and was allowed to keep the vulnerable toddler at home with her, even though she had been beaten by older sibs and family members several time.
 
'Shopping?' Is that the term used now for potential adoptive parents looking at which children would make the best fit?

I think it makes sense that parents would make tough decisions like this. The eldest son, was 'acting out.' We don't know what he was doing exactly. But maybe the description of his behavior worried them enough that they decided they could not help him. Maybe they worried that he would have a negative influence on his younger siblings and prevent them from bonding with their new family?

Who doesn't have a list of 'wants and needs' when they set out to adopt a family of children?

I remember when we first filled out applications for adoption services. There was a checklist at the bottom of the page on 'Special Needs' children.

Check the box if you are open to this situation or that situation.

I checked YES for Downs syndrome, but didn't check the box for Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or Autism.

And sat there looking at the list, feeling awkward and uncomfortable being asked to make a cold or calculated decision like that.

But isn't it an important process? Shouldn't we, as potential parents, be asked to consider the potential options/situations and decide what we can handle and what we cannot?

I used the term shopping because I feel like the Hart children were used like goods and the Hart women had a list of things that they wanted to ensure they had the best product they could consume/use. This is not to say other people think like this for the adoption process. My opinions are about the Hart women... please stop trying to agitate and cause unnecessary ruckus or accuse me of generalizing.

You are most certainly right. We DON'T know what the eldest son was doing to be considered "acting out". As I mentioned before, I think the only thing we can agree is that the Hart women didn't Iike his behavior. But yes, it could have been anything. And it could have also been that the behavior that worried them because maybe they sensed that he could not be controlled in the way that they wanted, maybe he would fight back a bit more if the Hart women took his food or tried to send him in the corner for time out. You never know. So it can go both ways and I'm entitled to my maybes just like you. Abusers don't pick random people. They pick people out and the Hart women were abusers.

Not just directed at you but in general: Asking "who doesn't etc" or inserting examples of things you've done that are similar to what Hart claimed to have done doesn't neutralize the suspicion around their actions. Being able to say I did that too or I've heard of that too doesn't eradicate my suspicion of their shady intentions. In fact that is how many people hide...in plain site with other people who think they're all one and the same.


IMO
 
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Has anyone run across a notification of a press confrence? I would think that one would be given frequently.
 
BBM. Isn't it even remotely possible that the "friends" Lee wanted to go and hang out with were not a good influence? Or were restricted by request of the court, or social workers?
It's more than possible that a parenting plan was in place, outlining curfews, allowable activities outside the home, people Lee was allowed to spend time with and others she was not allowed to spend time with.

Isn't it possible that separating Lee from being allowed to have unsupervised free time with some of these "friends" was a healthy break from influences that were encouraging Lee to be "difficult to handle"?

Do we know if Lee was restricted from any and all "friends" including any NEW friends? Was she allowed to go to the library? Shopping accompanied by Jen or Sarah? Movies with friends, chaperoned? This teen, by her own admission, needed structure and guidance. She wasn't in foster care because she had a happy home life with bio mom, with effective and safe parenting.

I don't think we can infer that Lee is telling the complete truth, or that Jen and Sarah Hart were "bad" or "evil" for restricting her from seeing certain people. We have NO idea what the real social services situation was for "Lee" beyond only HER report to a sympathetic reporter who desperately wants to write a story about the "private" experience in the Hart home-- and no one wants to present the Harts in any light except to pile on and present them as pure evil, all the time.

This is why I said earlier that before I could make any real assessments of the situation, or of the parents, that I needed more information. So much of what we've heard has been second and even third hand. (Unlike in the Turpin case where we literally have doctors saying that they were malnourished and the police saying they were restrained.) I've been uncomfortable with a lot of the conclusions that have been drawn so hastily. I believe the Harts abused and neglected their children, I believe their deaths were intentional, but I also believe that there is a lot of information out there that we don't have yet. NONE of that information would validate what the Harts did to their children or be an excuse but it would present a rounder picture.
 
I am really surprised that no one has come forward, having seen this family playing at the beach, or walking around the town of Ft Bragg during the time before the tragic incident. Where were they?
 
So it was racism against black people that was to blame for the children being removed?

Weren't some of the babies born with crack in their system? Is that racist to expect the children would be born free of hard drugs in their blood stream?

The black social workers and adoption workers are working hard, for little money, to try and PROTECT black children from abuse and neglect. They are not there to 'uphold the affects of institutionalized racism.'

They are there to give drug tests to newborns and scoop up the drug addicted babies and take them out of the abusers care. JMO

It's not about blame. It's about influence and power. If you read my other posts or reread them maybe you'll understand my perspective a little better.

apologies I meant effects*

One's actions can perpetuate, support, aid, racist informed structures, institutions, plans, policies in the professional workplace or in ordinary life. It doesn't have to be a conscious effort. I mentioned internalized and interpersonal oppression already. Please reread my posts.


IMO
 
I don't know exactly what we can "dismantle". We have no orphanage system. The foster care system varies tremendously by quality of foster parents, and geographically.

We have more and more kids entering the system every year, with ever more burdensome regulation imposed that grinds the system to a halt in many parental rights termination cases, and presents cracks and incentives to hurry up and provide permanence and close cases for kids in foster care.

The system is too large to be dismantled, and there are far too few quality foster parents and prospective adoptive parents. No one wants to re-start an orphanage system in this country.

So what DO we do? Encourage "some" women not to have kids? Do we insist that people only adopt racially similar kids?? Leave "certain" kids to languish in foster care? Why, that would be racist, classist, and bigoted, right? Haven't we been there before, and have now *evolved* in our thinking?

The system, IMO, isn't fixable. Not on a large scale. We could do some bandaid things like limit adoptions of older kids out of foster care to 1 or 2 per person/ couple. We could eliminate post adoption subsidies as incentives for domestic adoptions, to make it harder (international adoptions do not receive ANY subsidies-- they must prove financial ability to care for the child before the adoption is competed.) But how would that help sibling groups, who would certainly be broken up? How would that clear out the backlog of kids who need permanence? It would only make the problem worse, IMO.

I'm open to suggestions that might actually work. Kinship care is always considered, but is not always a good option. Often not a good option.

What are your suggestions? What do we do with older kids, and sibling groups, who are hard to place? How do we make sure they're okay long term? How do we properly evaluate prospective adoptive parents differently than we do now?

Actually, there have been advocates for orphanage type living as better than foster care.

There are things that may work such as the decriminalization of drug offenses. Provide living situations for the mother and child with parenting care and classes.

Work on the equality of women. Work on things such as the issues of “locker room”talk.

Work on the toxic masculnity men are raised in here so their self esteem is riased and they do not need to do all of their weird posturing.

Make schools better. Smaller class sizes. Adequate support such as counselors, social workers , psychologists right in the schools to,provide mental health services. Not as pullout, but for classes as a whole so kids are not singled out as needing mental health services.

If kids are found to need services, provide it after school with transportaion, if needed.

Jobs in inner cities. After school programs.

It will take money to work on providing opportunities for people so they don’t create more people with issues.
 
It's not about blame. It's about influence and power. If you read my other posts or reread them maybe you'll understand my perspective a little better.

apologies I meant effects*

One's actions can perpetuate, support, aid, racist informed structures, institutions, plans, policies in the professional workplace or in ordinary life. It doesn't have to be a conscious effort. I mentioned internalized and interpersonal oppression already. Please reread my posts.


IMO

All of the above, in my opinion, just gives a smoke screen allowing others to avoid personal accountability.

You say it is not about 'blame.'

Are we not blaming the Hart couple for their horrid actions? I think so and it is reasonable to do so.

But there is plenty of blame to go around, in my opinion.
 
Yes, in reality the Hart women had no heart. Anger issues, controlling, strict discipline, not so much lifestyle IMO but more personal issues, maybe Jen was bipolar.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

It is possible to have personality disorders and mental health issues and still have "heart." Millions of people are bi-polar and they don't murder their kids. I think it does a disservice to the victims to make blanket statements like this. Abuse is complicated, as are abusers. It is possible to have empathy, to possess feelings, to even be capable of occasional kindness and of love and still be an abuser. In fact, if there isn't some "goodness" involved, it's even harder for the abuser to control their victims.
 
I keep checking to see if they have identified the body found recently. I keep hoping they will locate the other three children. Six children who will never reach their full potential. Heartbreaking story!
 
Jumping off your 'points well taken' post Starkville with some thoughts.

The things that stand out to me from Lee's time period with the Harts:

The twisted hacksaw incident with the mannequins. Lee didn't mention it but that it happened during this time period with a young woman in their care could be indicative of Jens's unresolved feelings about being a teenager? Maybe the make over thing was some kind of reenactment of something she, herself endured?

The emotional cut off after the football signing incident.

The garbage eating claims, if false, (which I believe it is) provides a window into their (the harts) cookie cutter claims about their adopted children later on.

The isolation: while it may prove wise trying to keep a foster teen separated from her previous influences, and possibly drugs, I wonder why they didn't open their home as a host to outside friendships. This also seems consistent with no visable outside peer friendships with all of their adopted kids.

And the utterly shattering cut off with no goodbye, no best wishes, by these two women for this teen to be leveled by a therapist. This, after the Harts were gone for a week in TX, and obvi planned and moved out all of Lee's belongings.

This teen was with them for what, eight months? That they made no effort to reassure her their decision was about them not her is, to me, about as cold hearted as it gets. And this is consistent with the inconceivable disconnect that led them to murder their children, animals, leaving animals behind with no care, etc.

To say Lee dodged a bullet in an understatement. She, it seems, found a good foster parent who helped her navigate her feeling of abandonment.

All jmo

Excellent!
 
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