CA - Harvey Weinstein trial on Sexual Harassment #metoo *Guilty in CA, NY Appeal*

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I don't view this as a man who was unable to control himself - per some sort of viagra thing. This was a situation of women who went to the hotel room of a famous man, presumably with the hope of having some sort of opportunity - star in a film, get an invitation to a good party. The man tried to take advantage of them. When it happened, that was part and parcel of the industry. By today's standards, it's not, and many people are going down because of this societal change. Kevin Spacey has just been blacklisted, contracts cancelled, for a drunken night thirty years ago.

I read this post days ago and have mulled over exactly what to say about the theory posited by the poster.

Weinstein was not usually asking women to come to his hotel room They were going to a room in the hotel that he rented and was used as a part of his business and where he happened to stay-- these were suites. He conducted business and business meetings in these areas.

Did these people go to his office for a meeting? Absolutely. Weinstein often had people who worked for him in the suites or at the meetings and then after they left the assaults began. The idea that anyone would write "presumably with the hope of some opportunity" as if it implies that the women were entering into a usury situation is offensive on a number of levels. The women who met with Weinstein should have had the same expectation that any man would have had given the opportunity to make a pitch or obtain a chance for breaking into or furthering their career. He didn't try to take advantage of them--- he assaulted them or battered them. To say something was part and parcel of the industry implies that the quid pro quo was okay then. It was not. The more we justify the past as normal the more we further a thinking process that condones holding power over someone else through sexual assault/abuse or physical abuse.

Kevin Spacey is blacklisted not by a drunken night thirty years ago but by a pattern of assault that extends back to thirty years. He took advantage of gay and straight young men who face even more ridcule and derision in our society, because rape and sexual assault emasculates them, leaving them no place to go. Notice these young men have not gotten cash payouts because their circumstance if ever gotten out are more socially unsavory than women who are assaulted. Netflix and the production company had complaints even over the past six years.

Many people, including men, have long been offended and worked to stop this abuse long, long ago. This is not about societal change but rather women and men seizing the sunlight because of the women who have spoken out courageously for the past fifty years. Roger Ailes and the Fox debacle was the best opportunity to push this issue to even wider places because many who see women as "asking for it" did not think that the women at Fox would be asking for it given their political alliance with Fox. The unfortunate thing here is that powerful men who have used sexual abuse and violence as a means of bringing themselves pleasure have found a home/place of comfort with people who will justify their behavior based on history or what "a good girl" wouldn't do rather than those people standing up and saying cut it out and supporting legal ramifications for the assaults. Those people who sheltered others bare responsibility for forcing women and men who have been abused into silence. Many of the same people who purport that women who went to X or Y or Z and got assaulted should have expected it also did not stand up to Roman Catholic priest sexual abuse, politicians who sexually abused, or the neighbor who lured in the little children from the neighborhood---because the topic and the calling for consequences of people in power is humiliating, uncomfortable, requires guts, and requires an ability to feel the vulnerability that admitting sexual abuse requires. It is no wonder that women or men took power back through cash settlements with non-disclosure agreements. Why? Because they knew enough to not trust many in this country to have their back without making them feel shame or guilt for having been abused by some criminal who would use their power to entice people to be on their side.

As always, JMHO.
 
I can't imagine that you would think this way about your 14 year old girl or boy. If you think what happened is ok, well, I just don't know how you could think that.

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Survivors are still in lose-lose situations with people feeling and thinking this way.

My point is that there has been a shift in attitude in the film industry between thirty years ago and today, not that what happened thirty years ago was okay. I try not to be emotionally invested in debates, so my questions may seem callous, but they are intended to look at the topic from different perspectives. I do wonder why victims remained silent for so long. On the one hand, we hear that victims were afraid that speaking up would damage their careers, and on the other hand, we have to wonder if compliance and silence advanced their careers. It's a messy question, but asking it does not mean condoning what happened.
 
My point is that there has been a shift in attitude in the film industry between thirty years ago and today, not that what happened thirty years ago was okay. I try not to be emotionally invested in debates, so my questions may seem callous, but they are intended to look at the topic from different perspectives. I do wonder why victims remained silent for so long. On the one hand, we hear that victims were afraid that speaking up would damage their careers, and on the other hand, we have to wonder if compliance and silence advanced their careers. It's a messy question, but asking it does not mean condoning what happened.

With all due respect, victims remain silent because people question their decisions and motives by slicing each moment or choice as an MRI machine does with tissue--- to examine, pick apart, and, as a result, shame them because in a ten minute or ten hour time frame there are thousands of "decisions" made or "places for others to question their decisions". Someone will always have a better way or decision to have made or a thoughts on why what the victim did was wrong or furthered the assault. Their silence allowed them to survive and avoid becoming a laughing stock, a pariah, or a myriad of other things that happens to victims. Unfortunately, asking the "messy" question creates an atmosphere that the people asking are judging and looking through the actions taken by the victim to determine what percentage blame the victim should garner. Does a woman who was raped after walking alone on a desolate street bear 10%, 0% or X% of the responsibility for her rape? Now, if that same woman is a nun, what is the %? If the woman is a prostitute, what is the percentage? When we slice and dice, we take a victim blaming perspective. In reality, no woman, even if walking drunk and naked down as street should be raped-- she doesn't have to be a nun or my mom or saint to have 0% responsibility. That is what I see is wrong in your "debate" and "perspective" taking because it begins to caste blame on victims whether you intend to or not.
 
My point is that there has been a shift in attitude in the film industry between thirty years ago and today, not that what happened thirty years ago was okay. I try not to be emotionally invested in debates, so my questions may seem callous, but they are intended to look at the topic from different perspectives. I do wonder why victims remained silent for so long. On the one hand, we hear that victims were afraid that speaking up would damage their careers, and on the other hand, we have to wonder if compliance and silence advanced their careers. It's a messy question, but asking it does not mean condoning what happened.

Google "why don't women report it when they're raped?".

There are many stats, interviews, stories, articles, studies, research about this question.
 
<snipped for emphasis>
Kevin Spacey is blacklisted not by a drunken night thirty years ago but by a pattern of assault that extends back to thirty years. He took advantage of gay and straight young men who face even more ridcule and derision in our society, because rape and sexual assault emasculates them, leaving them no place to go. Notice these young men have not gotten cash payouts because their circumstance if ever gotten out are more socially unsavory than women who are assaulted. Netflix and the production company had complaints even over the past six years.

When I wrote the comment, there was one complaint against Spacey. Today, there are several, so it was easy to assume that he was blacklisted with one complaint because there was only one complaint.
 
With all due respect, victims remain silent because people question their decisions and motives by slicing each moment or choice as an MRI machine does with tissue--- to examine, pick apart, and, as a result, shame them because in a ten minute or ten hour time frame there are thousands of "decisions" made or "places for others to question their decisions". Someone will always have a better way or decision to have made or a thoughts on why what the victim did was wrong or furthered the assault. Their silence allowed them to survive and avoid becoming a laughing stock, a pariah, or a myriad of other things that happens to victims. Unfortunately, asking the "messy" question creates an atmosphere that the people asking are judging and looking through the actions taken by the victim to determine what percentage blame the victim should garner. Does a woman who was raped after walking alone on a desolate street bear 10%, 0% or X% of the responsibility for her rape? Now, if that same woman is a nun, what is the %? If the woman is a prostitute, what is the percentage? When we slice and dice, we take a victim blaming perspective. In reality, no woman, even if walking drunk and naked down as street should be raped-- she doesn't have to be a nun or my mom or saint to have 0% responsibility. That is what I see is wrong in your "debate" and "perspective" taking because it begins to caste blame on victims whether you intend to or not.

I don't think we can deny that there has been a shift in societal attitudes about sexuality in the film industry. Again, no one has said that it was okay thirty years ago, or fifty years ago, and no one has suggested that victims of sexual assault are not victims. At the same time, it is not unreasonable to ask why someone would accept money for tolerating sexual assault.
 
I don't think we can deny that there has been a shift in societal attitudes about sexuality in the film industry. Again, no one has said that it was okay thirty years ago, or fifty years ago, and no one has suggested that victims of sexual assault are not victims. At the same time, it is not unreasonable to ask why someone would accept money for tolerating sexual assault.


I am not sure how to say this in a way that is stronger. It was not sexuality that occurred historically. It was sexual abuse and intimidation---- a dynamic of power over/violence not a sexual relationship of consenting equals. To call it sexuality is one of those slice and dice things I wrote about previously --- the judgment goes against the victim who found the situation to be unacceptable.

Maybe if you write it this way. In the 1950s/1960s/1970s/1980s/1990s/2000s, there were people in the film industry who used their power to coerce and abuse people who were looking for jobs and breaks in the industry. These survivors of abuse were often not given fair and equal access despite having been abused and attacked by men (or women) in power. For some who were abused, taking a cash payout and signing a non-disclosure agreement was the only way that they could get justice because the societal norms often minimize the actions of the abuser or question the victim's judgment, implying that victim was a willing participant in his/her abuse. And, therefore, many in society believe the victim is not entitled to legal relief or societal support because "she asked for it" by placing herself in a position where she was vulnerable.
 
I am not sure how to say this in a way that is stronger. It was not sexuality that occurred historically. It was sexual abuse and intimidation---- a dynamic of power over/violence not a sexual relationship of consenting equals. To call it sexuality is one of those slice and dice things I wrote about previously --- the judgment goes against the victim who found the situation to be unacceptable.

Maybe if you write it this way. In the 1950s/1960s/1970s/1980s/1990s/2000s, there were people in the film industry who used their power to coerce and abuse people who were looking for jobs and breaks in the industry. These survivors of abuse were often not given fair and equal access despite having been abused and attacked by men (or women) in power. For some who were abused, taking a cash payout and signing a non-disclosure agreement was the only way that they could get justice because the societal norms often minimize the actions of the abuser or question the victim's judgment, implying that victim was a willing participant in his/her abuse. And, therefore, many in society believe the victim is not entitled to legal relief or societal support because "she asked for it" by placing herself in a position where she was vulnerable.

Are you denying that some aspiring actors thought it might be advantageous to seduce someone with authority to get ahead, and that they willingly traded sex for benefits?
 
Are you denying that some aspiring actors thought it might be advantageous to seduce someone with authority to get ahead, and that they willingly traded sex for benefits?


Are you kidding? Why would you or anyone think that a person (male or female) would sit at home thinking --I want to be famous, how can I get famous? I know, let me go spread @! &$*^........because that will make me a star. Yes, I could take acting classes or work my way up but hey, let me take advantage of a producer to get what I want. Really. Once again, you are making this about a sexual encounter of equals. A person looking for a job is not equal to the person hiring---the person hiring has the power to give or not give the job. I am astounded.
 
Are you denying that some aspiring actors thought it might be advantageous to seduce someone with authority to get ahead, and that they willingly traded sex for benefits?

Links to aspiring actors who seduced people in positions of authority to get ahead? Who exactly traded sex for benefits? Please provide examples to back up your accusations. Thanks.
 
Are you kidding? Why would you or anyone think that a person (male or female) would sit at home thinking --I want to be famous, how can I get famous? I know, let me go spread @! &$*^........because that will make me a star. Yes, I could take acting classes or work my way up but hey, let me take advantage of a producer to get what I want. Really. Once again, you are making this about a sexual encounter of equals. A person looking for a job is not equal to the person hiring---the person hiring has the power to give or not give the job. I am astounded.

Thank you. It's not as if producers and directors are helpless creatures who have to give in when someone offers sex. It's the same with teachers, prison guards, police officers, parents, employers. They can't say "I was seduced" as a defense.
 
When I wrote the comment, there was one complaint against Spacey. Today, there are several, so it was easy to assume that he was blacklisted with one complaint because there was only one complaint.

I still believed Anthony Rapp.
 
Are you kidding? Why would you or anyone think that a person (male or female) would sit at home thinking --I want to be famous, how can I get famous? I know, let me go spread @! &$*^........because that will make me a star. Yes, I could take acting classes or work my way up but hey, let me take advantage of a producer to get what I want. Really. Once again, you are making this about a sexual encounter of equals. A person looking for a job is not equal to the person hiring---the person hiring has the power to give or not give the job. I am astounded.

Are you kidding? Why would you think that sexuality is never used for personal benefit?

That's clearly where there is a difference of opinion. I firmly believe that some women seduce men with power because they want to benefit, and they view it was a good trade. Clearly others believe that no woman ever in the history of time has ever used seduction for personal benefit. As long as we are on opposite sides of this belief, where I do believe that a lawyer will view dating a judge as a good career move, and someone else might believe that lawyers can only date lawyers, and judges can only date judges, my point about film industry sexuality will never be understood.
 
I still believed Anthony Rapp.

I still question why his parents allowed him to attend a drunken party. That is questioning the role of those with responsibility, not the role of the victim.
 
Anyone reading this thread might think that manipulation is not possible when one person is in a position of power and the other wants to gain something.
 
It is like you want to blame everyone but the rapist. Ridiculous.

Ridiculous. I'm not blaming anyone. I am looking at all side of this debate. As long as we all realize that this is a debate, and not a learning moment, we'll all be on the same page. I've been advocating for victims on this forum for a very long time, but that does not mean that I cannot question why someone views financial compensation as a reason to tolerate sexual assault. In fact, I view accepting financial compensation in exchange for sexual assault as the worst thing that could be done on behalf of victims. Not only does it communicate to the offender that the assault was worth a handful of money, but it also leaves the door open for decades of additional victims. That point seems to be lost on the strident viewpoint of emotional responses determined to educate.
 
Ridiculous. I'm not blaming anyone. I am looking at all side of this debate. As long as we all realize that this is a debate, and not a learning moment, we'll all be on the same page. I've been advocating for victims on this forum for a very long time, but that does not mean that I cannot question why someone views financial compensation as a reason to tolerate sexual assault. In fact, I view accepting financial compensation in exchange for sexual assault as the worst thing that could be done on behalf of victims. Not only does it communicate to the offender that the assault was worth a handful of money, but it also leaves the door open for decades of additional victims. That point seems to be lost on the strident viewpoint of emotional responses determined to educate.

And if financial compensation is the only option, the person should still walk away? When the legal justice system fails, what is a victim supposed to do, just shrug and walk away?
 
Anyone reading this thread might think that manipulation is not possible when one person is in a position of power and the other wants to gain something.

So a teacher who is manipulated by a student, it's not the teacher's fault if he or she gives in and has sex with a student? Really. I find that reprehensible.
 

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