Identified! CA - Huntington Beach, WhtFem 40UFCA, 18-30, poss name Andrea, Apr'90 - Andrea Kuiper

[carbuff]

The height and weight are the same. Andrea told people she came from several states in the east Coast, Ellen lived in FL. She "disappeared in 1981, at age 15. In 1990, she would have been 25/26, the same age(s) Andrea claimed to be. Ellen had several fillings whilst sources list Andrea having recent expensive dental work. I'm not used to writing long paragraphs so sorry if it's out of order or incoherent.

Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, you could be on to something here.

I'm sorry if I was snarky -- I was having a crabby sort of evening but I should have kept it out of my post. What I meant was the pointers to her entries in missing persons databases:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/akers_ellen.html
http://doenetwork.org/cases/2463dffl.html
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/5783/5
http://www.nampn.org/cases/akers_ellen.html

And here's a side by side of Ellen with Carl's reconstruction:

 

[EmiLove832]

I'm curious about the blonde hair listed for Ellen. It doesn't look blonde in the b&w photos but I guess everyone has a different idea of what blonde is.

She does look similar to Andrea though.


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[anonymess]

I think it's worth submitting. One of her photos looks like the noncarl recon and the other looks like the Carl recon; that's quite a remarkable thing IMHO.

 

[anonymess]

And here's a side by side of Ellen with Carl's reconstruction:

Thank you for the side-by-sides carbuff! The brows have startling similarities, as do the noses. Would love for Carl to see Ellen's pics this since he's seen the Andrea postmortem photo, iirc.

 

[CarlK90245]

Thank you for the side-by-sides carbuff! The brows have startling similarities, as do the noses. Would love for Carl to see Ellen's pics this since he's seen the Andrea postmortem photo, iirc.

There is a clear resemblance, and I would at least like to see a manual comparison done. However, I do see differences too.

One clear difference is in their chins. The horizontal crease between the lower lip and chin (called the labiomental crease) touches Ellen's lower lip. Andrea Doe's labiomental crease is well below her lower lip.

 

[EmiLove832]

Carl, how can I ask this delicately... Was her face damaged in the accident?


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[anonymess]

There is a clear resemblance, and I would at least like to see a manual comparison done. However, I do see differences too.

One clear difference is in their chins. The horizontal crease between the lower lip and chin (called the labiomental crease) touches Ellen's lower lip. Andrea Doe's labiomental crease is well below her lower lip.

So grateful to have your skilled eyes on this one, Carl! I took a look back at her photos on the doe page with your comment about that chin crease in mind.

I'm wondering if the lighting from above in Ellen's yearbook photo obscures her lower fold and makes the bottom lip just appear larger? I notice her lips seem less prominent in the second, more washed out Ellen photo (lower lip less large). I also thought it was interesting that ncfmc gave Ellen's "aged" image a lower chin crease. (I am hoping they based it off a higher resolution copy of that yearbook photo and possibly photos of Ellen we haven't seen.) But I'm a bit of a newbie and was only ever a novice photographer at best, so pardon any wacky interpretations I've made

 

[CarlK90245]

Carl, how can I ask this delicately... Was her face damaged in the accident?


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She had a very severe laceration across her forehead, which is stitched shut in the photo. There is also a slight asymmetry in the bridge of her nose that might suggest that her nose was broken. She appears to have a very noticeable pug-nose, which was shown my early versions of the recon. However, I am now of the opinion that the possible damage to the bridge of her nose may have turned her nose up.

There is also a scrape on her left cheek.

Other than that, her face was undamaged, especially below the nose.

 

[LinasK]

She had a very severe laceration across her forehead, which is stitched shut in the photo. There is also a slight asymmetry in the bridge of her nose that might suggest that her nose was broken. She appears to have a very noticeable pug-nose, which was shown my early versions of the recon. However, I am now of the opinion that the possible damage to the bridge of her nose may have turned her nose up.

There is also a scrape on her left cheek.

Other than that, her face was undamaged, especially below the nose.

So would the laceration have been received in the accident, then stitched up in the autopsy, then photographed? Or do you think this injury was prior to the accident?

 

[CarlK90245]

So would the laceration have been received in the accident, then stitched up in the autopsy, then photographed? Or do you think this injury was prior to the accident?

Yes, that is what would appear to be the case - that the accident was the cause of the laceration. The stitching was very crudely done, and not what you would expect to see on a living person.

 

[shadowdancer]

Well we thought that 'Cali' had an upturned nose, but it turned out that Tammy's nose wasn't.

I think Carl is probably correct that Andrea's nose isn't so turned up either. Would you be able to create another picture of Andrea with a straighter nose, Carl?

 

[CarlK90245]

Well we thought that 'Cali' had an upturned nose, but it turned out that Tammy's nose wasn't.

I think Carl is probably correct that Andrea's nose isn't so turned up either. Would you be able to create another picture of Andrea with a straighter nose, Carl?

My most recent version does depict her nose as less turned up than it appears in the PM photo.

 

[carbuff]

Thank you for the side-by-sides carbuff! The brows have startling similarities, as do the noses. Would love for Carl to see Ellen's pics this since he's seen the Andrea postmortem photo, iirc.

I've also seen the PM photo and while Akers doesn't quite give me that clear sense of recognition that Cali/Tami did, I see a definite and strong resemblance. One thing that's big for me is that Akers has the features and coloring and still doesn't look particularly Hispanic or Jewish, which is true of the PM but not true in most of the recons, even Carlk's.

Here's Andrea side by side with Carlk's updated portrait.

 

[carbuff]

I'm curious about the blonde hair listed for Ellen. It doesn't look blonde in the b&w photos but I guess everyone has a different idea of what blonde is.

She does look similar to Andrea though.


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It was ten years from Akers' disappearance to Andrea's death. It's possible Akers had the kind of blonde hair that darkens with age. My father was white-blond as a toddler, but by the time I came along, it had darkened to black.

 

[shadowdancer]

My most recent version does depict her nose as less turned up than it appears in the PM photo.

Thanks, I hadn't seen it.

 

[anonymess]

I made a side by side of all the recons I know of, plus Ellen's photo. I did some really bad filtering work to make other photos look a bit more on parallel with the terrible photo quality of Ellen's pic, and try to bring out as many shadows as I could in Ellen's pic. I am now a bit concerned that the Ellen's chin and the recon chins are dramatically different? Maybe I've been looking at these too long...

 

[carbuff]

I'm not sure whether the chins are different, or if it's that Ellen has her mouth closed tight in her photo while Andrea's is more relaxed. That's the trouble with only having one photo to go from; it's a lot harder to try to judge what might be simply an effect of pose. And it appears to be a school photo, so the photographer might have turned her head or something. I remember they were always making me tuck my chin so my jowls didn't look so big, and that made my whole face look different.

In any case I think that with the stats being so close, she needs to be submitted and checked. I kinda don't think it's her, but I won't be surprised if she is, either.

 

[sluethermac]

I don't think they'd take me seriously. I'm only 16.

 

[Tulessa]

Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, you could be on to something here.

I'm sorry if I was snarky -- I was having a crabby sort of evening but I should have kept it out of my post. What I meant was the pointers to her entries in missing persons databases:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/akers_ellen.html
http://doenetwork.org/cases/2463dffl.html
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/5783/5
http://www.nampn.org/cases/akers_ellen.html

And here's a side by side of Ellen with Carl's reconstruction:

Wowzers!

 

[sluethermac]

I'm just glad I a could help. Like I said before I strongly believe it's her.