CA - Jaycee Dugard, 11, South Lake Tahoe, 10 June 1991 - #2

[Themis]

The pictures posted in the picture thread recently really show some insight as to how these 3 lived. The question I have is how did Jaycee read those books? She was kidnapped at 11. 11 yr olds have very rudimentary reading skills. In the pic with the paperback books I saw Koontz, and Danielle Steele books - adult reading. Did these "subhumans" teach her? Did she teach herself? I am encouraged by the books as if she could read then she could have taught her girls as well.

Another question from those pictures - what happened when it rained? Those clothes and beds are in that tent - they really aren't all that waterproof. Plus the rugs on the floor and the beds are on the "floor" (ground).

The more I am seeing the worse I feel. How horrible. I knew that the more news we receive out of this - the worse the details were going to be.

How could anyone allow children to live like that and then just waltz back into the comfort of a permanent dwelling without hesitation? Again, these two are not fit to breathe the air we do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Bay Area has some very wet and wild winter storms too -- much worse than Southern California. It gets cold there.

 

[Themis]

Temps for August 28 and 29 in Antioch, CA in 2008 were 105 degrees F. It can get down into the teens in the winter months in Antioch.

 

[mysteriew]

Early on after her abduction he couldn't have kept her out in the backyard because of too great a chance that someone could hear her scream. So she would have had to either be in the house or in the soundproof room. Later after he became more sure of her, she may have stayed in the house unless they had company. Same with the children. Then when it was inconvenient she would be sent to the backyard.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Early on after her abduction he couldn't have kept her out in the backyard because of too great a chance that someone could hear her scream. So she would have had to either be in the house or in the soundproof room. Later after he became more sure of her, she may have stayed in the house unless they had company. Same with the children. Then when it was inconvenient she would be sent to the backyard.

One of the "sheds" in the backyard has been reported as being soundproof and could only be opened from the outside. Also, if you check out those new pictures you will see dressers of clothes and also a make-shift rack of hanging clothes. Nope, they lived out there. And I'm sure that soundproof shed was used for a "myriad" of reasons.

 

[Beyond Belief]

The male owner of the house on Walnut, does anyone know how he died. I was wondering if someone helped him to die or if it was natural.

I am wondering if the two little ones even knew that Jaycee had been abducted or any of the gory story. To them this guy is their father and they may "love" him.

 

[songline]

The male owner of the house on Walnut, does anyone know how he died. I was wondering if someone helped him to die or if it was natural.

I am wondering if the two little ones even knew that Jaycee had been abducted or any of the gory story. To them this guy is their father and they may "love" him.

I read that the girls did not know that she was abducted.

dont know about the owner of the house on Walnut.

 

[mayfairlight]

Also an 11 yo, even with begininng reading skills if kept in isolated conditions, maybe without a TV or with limits on when she could watch TV might turn to reading to occupy herself if books were made available to her. Increased reading would gradually lead to improved reading skills.

I agree. Someone can only teach you to read when you can't, once you can, only reading can teach you to read better. If that makes any sense.
I'm a bit disturbed by the bookshelf though, it seems to be ONLY horror, science fiction and thrillers. Nothing wrong with that, that's what I read, but if they had no internet or television (or did they?) then those books were basically the only "connection" to the outside world. Is that disturbing to anyone else?
I'm just hoping she and her children will be fine.

 

[cinsbythesea]

Temps for August 28 and 29 in Antioch, CA in 2008 were 105 degrees F. It can get down into the teens in the winter months in Antioch.

Bold by me- I don't recall it ever dropping below 30 degrees - it gets cold up on Mt Diablo which is near Antioch - but Antioch is further east- and warmer. I recall it snowing just once when I was a kid. It does get as hot as he** there in the summer months though -on that you are correct! And it doesn't cool down at night -I can remember it still being 95 degrees at 10:00 at night. NOT good memories!

 

[mysteriew]

I agree. Someone can only teach you to read when you can't, once you can, only reading can teach you to read better. If that makes any sense.
I'm a bit disturbed by the bookshelf though, it seems to be ONLY horror, science fiction and thrillers. Nothing wrong with that, that's what I read, but if they had no internet or television (or did they?) then those books were basically the only "connection" to the outside world. Is that disturbing to anyone else?
I'm just hoping she and her children will be fine.

They had a computer and internet I know. He has a website about his garbage, Jaycee used email in the printing business.

 

[galvino]

I don't know where else to put my rant/opinion so I will put it here.

After reading about so many horrific crimes against women and children, and being outraged about each and every one... there have been a few that have left me gobsmacked and this is one of them!

I am not giving these pieces of scum a pass, but I DO believe that mental illness is at play here...not just personality disorders, but real mental disease and defect. Now where their depravity ends and the mental illness begins for these 2 , I can not hazard a guess, but from the things I have read from family members and the neighbors and Berkley responders, these people were unable to camoflouge their 'wierdness'. A sophisticated pervert, like Mike Devlin (Shawn Hornbeck's rapist and kidnapper) and M. Jaques (Brooke Bennett's abductor and sexual torturer/murderer) never attracted attention because they was cunning. They were able to cover their crimes because they were NOT mentaly ill-just SICK! they did not suffer from mental illness-just a sick perversion and psycho/sexual personality disorders which led them to act. This guy's screwed up mentality allowed him to bring these girls out in the open, and had he not been so deluded, he would have never been caught IMO.

These people, IMO, started out like the above psycho/sociopaths but morphed into mentally diseased people for a myriad of reasons. I would actually be interested if sexually transmitted diseases such as syphillus were contributory. I also believe that 'mind control' is at issue here and that Nancy probably suffered from mental illness b4 meeting Phillip.

From what I have read about the reconcilliation between JC, her children and her Mom, as well as what the Berkley rescuers have spoken about, JC and her children are in for a Loooong process in order to become quasi'normal. Their experience is not just that of escape from a sexual preditor who only wants to coerce them to comply to his proclivities, , but something much worse. Their ordeal seems actually much more difficult to overcome than Natasha K's or Elizabeth Fritzl's- if that is possible. At this juncture-even David Koresh seems sane!

It would be much easier for me to be able to use a broad brush to paint these 2 as evil degenerates, and I do believe that their actions and motivations are based on evil... but I think that a plea of insanity is not out of the question. If Cali can make sure that these 2 NEVER get out of an institution for the criminally insane, I am OK with that.

What I want MORE than retribution for these retrobates is rehabilitation for these 3 GIRLS. I don't know how that will be acheived, but I do think that it will encompass more than we can even imagine. All 3 of these girls are stunted in such a way that any amount of education and socialization will only provide a bandaid to their damaged psyche. I fear that their emotional developement will never exceed their chronilogical age at the time of their imprisonment. JC is lucky- for her that age is 11- for her children, that age is infancy. The only difference between them and feral children is language and empathy.

Sorry if my rant is offensive- I don't mean to provide excuses for excrement- but I do believe that mental illness exists, and these 'people' seem very mentally ill to me. If they weren't, then no one would have ever alerted us to their odd behavior when they finally decided to expose themselves to the public and they would have continued to conceal their crimes. If they were really savvy, I feel they would have never made themselves public.


JMO

 

[JBean]

The male owner of the house on Walnut, does anyone know how he died. I was wondering if someone helped him to die or if it was natural.

I am wondering if the two little ones even knew that Jaycee had been abducted or any of the gory story. To them this guy is their father and they may "love" him.

Natural causes. I actually have a copy of the death certificate.

I would think the little girls love him.

 

[mysteriew]

I don't know where else to put my rant/opinion so I will put it here.

After reading about so many horrific crimes against women and children, and being outraged about each and every one... there have been a few that have left me gobsmacked and this is one of them!

I am not giving these pieces of scum a pass, but I DO believe that mental illness is at play here...not just personality disorders, but real mental disease and defect. Now where their depravity ends and the mental illness begins for these 2 , I can not hazard a guess, but from the things I have read from family members and the neighbors and Berkley responders, these people were unable to camoflouge their 'wierdness'. A sophisticated pervert, like Mike Devlin (Shawn Hornbeck's rapist and kidnapper) and M. Jaques (Brooke Bennett's abductor and sexual torturer/murderer) never attracted attention because they was cunning. They were able to cover their crimes because they were NOT mentaly ill-just SICK! they did not suffer from mental illness-just a sick perversion and psycho/sexual personality disorders which led them to act. This guy's screwed up mentality allowed him to bring these girls out in the open, and had he not been so deluded, he would have never been caught IMO.

These people, IMO, started out like the above psycho/sociopaths but morphed into mentally diseased people for a myriad of reasons. I would actually be interested if sexually transmitted diseases such as syphillus were contributory. I also believe that 'mind control' is at issue here and that Nancy probably suffered from mental illness b4 meeting Phillip.

From what I have read about the reconcilliation between JC, her children and her Mom, as well as what the Berkley rescuers have spoken about, JC and her children are in for a Loooong process in order to become quasi'normal. Their experience is not just that of escape from a sexual preditor who only wants to coerce them to comply to his proclivities, , but something much worse. Their ordeal seems actually much more difficult to overcome than Natasha K's or Elizabeth Fritzl's- if that is possible. At this juncture-even David Koresh seems sane!

It would be much easier for me to be able to use a broad brush to paint these 2 as evil degenerates, and I do believe that their actions and motivations are based on evil... but I think that a plea of insanity is not out of the question. If Cali can make sure that these 2 NEVER get out of an institution for the criminally insane, I am OK with that.

What I want MORE than retribution for these retrobates is rehabilitation for these 3 GIRLS. I don't know how that will be acheived, but I do think that it will encompass more than we can even imagine. All 3 of these girls are stunted in such a way that any amount of education and socialization will only provide a bandaid to their damaged psyche. I fear that their emotional developement will never exceed their chronilogical age at the time of their imprisonment. JC is lucky- for her that age is 11- for her children, that age is infancy. The only difference between them and feral children is language and empathy.

Sorry if my rant is offensive- I don't mean to provide excuses for excrement- but I do believe that mental illness exists, and these 'people' seem very mentally ill to me. If they weren't, then no one would have ever alerted us to their odd behavior when they finally decided to expose themselves to the public and they would have continued to conceal their crimes. If they were really savvy, I feel they would have never made themselves public.


JMO

LOL that isn't a rant. That is stating your opinion.

I too believe that PG is probably mentally ill. But I do have some reservations about that. Where does the illness end and the criminal liability begin. I mean most mentally ill people are so out of touch with reality that they don't try to hide it because they don't know that it might be wrong. As an illustration, PG's pushing his 'religion' and ideas about sound control devices. By most current standards, he is considered not just wrong but pretty out there. But as far as his abduction of Jaycee, his holding her prisoner, and any other crimes he may have committed, he went to great pains to hide those. To me that means the crimes were outside of the illness. That he was enough in touch with reality to know that what he was doing was wrong and that he could get into trouble for doing it.

So where does the illness end and the responsibility begin?

 

[Dallasdon]

LOL that isn't a rant. That is stating your opinion.

I too believe that PG is probably mentally ill. But I do have some reservations about that. Where does the illness end and the criminal liability begin. I mean most mentally ill people are so out of touch with reality that they don't try to hide it because they don't know that it might be wrong. As an illustration, PG's pushing his 'religion' and ideas about sound control devices. By most current standards, he is considered not just wrong but pretty out there. But as far as his abduction of Jaycee, his holding her prisoner, and any other crimes he may have committed, he went to great pains to hide those. To me that means the crimes were outside of the illness. That he was enough in touch with reality to know that what he was doing was wrong and that he could get into trouble for doing it.

So where does the illness end and the responsibility begin?

I think the "not guilty by reason of insanity" verdict should be changed to "guilty due to insanity".

Then I would have no problem with the verdict.

(A) Are you innocent or guilty?

(B) Are you sane?

... IN THAT ORDER.

 

[kgeaux]

The pictures posted in the picture thread recently really show some insight as to how these 3 lived. The question I have is how did Jaycee read those books? She was kidnapped at 11. 11 yr olds have very rudimentary reading skills. In the pic with the paperback books I saw Koontz, and Danielle Steele books - adult reading. Did these "subhumans" teach her? Did she teach herself? I am encouraged by the books as if she could read then she could have taught her girls as well.

Another question from those pictures - what happened when it rained? Those clothes and beds are in that tent - they really aren't all that waterproof. Plus the rugs on the floor and the beds are on the "floor" (ground).

The more I am seeing the worse I feel. How horrible. I knew that the more news we receive out of this - the worse the details were going to be.

How could anyone allow children to live like that and then just waltz back into the comfort of a permanent dwelling without hesitation? Again, these two are not fit to breathe the air we do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have 5 sons. ALL 5 of my kids were reading at post high school levels by age 11. Maybe because we homeschooled? Maybe not. Maybe because my boys did not have access to a television? Many kids (girls especially) are voracious readers, ESPECIALLY if their environment doesn't include TV and video games.

Also, our local public middle school uses a program called "accelerated reading" and Daniel Steele's books are a part of the middle school offerings. You really don't need more than a third grade education to read and understand most of her books!

I totally agree with you on your other points. The shacks look like shacks. They certainly don't appear to be weather-proof, and I believe Jaycee survived in spite of her surroundings, not because any kind of real shelter was provided for her. I especially agree that it would take a degraded, hard, hard heart to leave a child out in a freaking shack while one returned to the comfort of a real home.

 

[mysteriew]

I don't know, some of the things show an attempt to make her happy. She had lotions, flowers, books. Clothing was provided. Space was made for her. She is alive, she bonded with him (out of necessity, agreed but some positive reinforment would be necessary for the bonding). So I can see her being allowed in if they didn't have company or if the weather was inclement as long as she was being "good". Plus, it would probably make him feel good and generous. To 'allow' her inside when she was being "good" seems like something this freak would do.

 

[galvino]

I agree. Someone can only teach you to read when you can't, once you can, only reading can teach you to read better. If that makes any sense.
I'm a bit disturbed by the bookshelf though, it seems to be ONLY horror, science fiction and thrillers. Nothing wrong with that, that's what I read, but if they had no internet or television (or did they?) then those books were basically the only "connection" to the outside world. Is that disturbing to anyone else?
I'm just hoping she and her children will be fine.

I understand what you say! Expanding your vocab and surpassing a Dick & Jane world depends on being taught larger words and ideas and I doubt they had that.
The content of what they were given to read is frightening if you have no other compass to compare it to. Maybe that is why they are described as being blank. I CAN NOT imagine having that as my only reading material (as well as the fruitcake stuff he penned). I just hope they are unable to do anything more than color within the lines of a coloring book!

 

[Beyond Belief]

I keep feeling something started clicking when he moved his mother out of the house, i believe just recently. Surely he kept these kids hidden from her. With the mother gone, there went the monthly income. He couldn't possible have made enough to feed all of them on that printing business. I guess Creepy Phil did act a little weird trying to hide all these people all this time.

 

[galvino]

LOL that isn't a rant. That is stating your opinion.

I too believe that PG is probably mentally ill. But I do have some reservations about that. Where does the illness end and the criminal liability begin. I mean most mentally ill people are so out of touch with reality that they don't try to hide it because they don't know that it might be wrong. As an illustration, PG's pushing his 'religion' and ideas about sound control devices. By most current standards, he is considered not just wrong but pretty out there. But as far as his abduction of Jaycee, his holding her prisoner, and any other crimes he may have committed, he went to great pains to hide those. To me that means the crimes were outside of the illness. That he was enough in touch with reality to know that what he was doing was wrong and that he could get into trouble for doing it.

So where does the illness end and the responsibility begin?

That is the defining issue for me also! He obviously went to great lengths to conceal his culpability and illness when it served him early on in this case. I guess I think of him as being cognicent enuff to know when things are wrong when compared to what the rest of the world is doing, but not astute enough to realize that his ideas are not defendable. Thanx for your debate!

 

[Openmind]

The pictures posted in the picture thread recently really show some insight as to how these 3 lived. The question I have is how did Jaycee read those books? She was kidnapped at 11. 11 yr olds have very rudimentary reading skills. In the pic with the paperback books I saw Koontz, and Danielle Steele books - adult reading. Did these "subhumans" teach her? Did she teach herself? I am encouraged by the books as if she could read then she could have taught her girls as well.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Once a person learns how to read, they improve their reading skills by reading. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At eleven, she had the tools she needed to progress her reading. No telling what books she had access to through the years, but her reading taste and reading ability would have matured with her as she grew older. She was isolated but she wasn't frozen in time as an eleven year old. Sadly, she had too many adult behaviors forced [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]upon her far too early and in very perverse circumstances.[/FONT]

 

[amber1]

I am in amazement that she's alive. Think of the horrors this poor girl, now woman has lived thorugh. She certainly is a shining light for the families of all other missing children. No matter how cold and old the case, your child always has a chance of coming home to you, alive. Thank you, Jaycee for hope