CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #15

[missy1974]

@Mica - I've noticed that the trial has not started until 1:30pm yesterday & today. Is that the time for tomorrow too? Do you have a list of court dates yet for next week?

TIA

they must have started before 1:30 today, it's only 12:37pm their time right now, and Cathy Russon tweeted that Cathy Sanchez was the first witness this morning (no time though)

 

[katydid23]

Hmm, I can’t think of any other than this one. Do you have any examples?

Besides the one described above, there was the Groene Family murders where one intruder entered a home with 2 pit bulls, a very large strong adult man, his wife and a tall strong 13 yr old son and 2 children. He killed the adults and the teen and kidnapped the children

People thought there were at least 2 intruders

There is another case that comes to mind but I cannot remember the name. I saw it unfold on the 1st 48. One family member killed a family of 4—using a gun and a knife he killed 2 adults and 2 teens, all by himself

The detectives were looking for 2 suspects and were certain it was more than one killer involved at first

 

[katydid23]

She is done. Subject to recall of course, but her testimony ended yesterday.

I thought he ran out of time during the cross snd was returning? Weird

 

[missy1974]

I thought he ran out of time during the cross snd was returning? Weird

Nope, just double checked. She is subject to recall (sounded like McGee that said it but not sure), which most witnesses have been.

 

[Tortoise]

I am surprised that the prosecution didn't bring up and challenge her on the fact that Ryan was able to determine there was DNA consistent with Merritt's on the passenger door. This has been something they have mentioned numerous times, that his DNA wasn't found on that side of the Trooper, so I would think they would want to challenge her on that interpretation, unless maybe they couldn't and didn't want to highlight that fact.

rsbm

I've been trying to remember when they have mentioned it, aside from when they were entering the results of the DNA testing into evidence, but I can't recall. Can you remind me when or in what context it was brought up?

 

[Texas Red]

Besides the one described above, there was the Groene Family murders

I hadn't before heard of the Groene Family, it looks like the convicted killer in that case is Joseph Duncan, I read up on it, pretty gruesome.

 

[Mica]

@Mica - I've noticed that the trial has not started until 1:30pm yesterday & today. Is that the time for tomorrow too? Do you have a list of court dates yet for next week?

TIA

Latest from the Court Portal. 4/11/19 Motion Hearing is for Motions to Quash SDT related to Google, Microsoft, and TSG Documentary.

• 04/08/2019 Jury Trial
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• 04/08/2019 CSR Directed to Prepare Transcript of Proceedings
  
  
• 04/09/2019 Jury Trial
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  04/11/2019 Motion Hearing
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[Satchie]

She ‘cleaned off’ a palm print from the outside kitchen window? WTH?

What really concerns me is, where were they attacked and how were they removed into a vehicle, without leaving stains on the walls, floors, ceiling, soaked into upholstry and matresses, lamp shades, woodwork, trim, windows, the sidewalk and vehicle? You can't sneak up on 4 people and tidily smash their heads in, they run away, they break and throw things, they touch their wound and then touch other things leaving blood everywhere. The killer is covered with blood and leaves it everywhere.

If you leave bodies where they die, the amount of blood will be immense, if you move the bodies quickly, you will leave a trail.

This is the comment from the current case of a woman who was blindfolded and then beaten: "Inside Berreth’s home in the Colorado mountain town, she was confronted with an unthinkable scene....Her words were when she opened the door, it was horrific... there was blood everywhere. She was tasked with disposing of certain items -- including a bloody Bible and the sweater she claims Frazee used to cover Berreth’s eyes -- as well as wiping the blood off surfaces around the home." CBI: Idaho nurse claimed Patrick Frazee fatally beat Kelsey Berreth, burned her body

She was a nurse, so experienced with creating perfectly clean environments. And she had to deal with the scene for only one victim, not for four, and for a person blindfolded before being attacked. Was CM a clean freak, would he notice every stain? Wouldn't three women cleaning the home for sale notice blood stains he'd missed?

 

[Frankie Hellis]

BBM - For the same reason that Denys Williams was or any other CSI tech that takes samples for the State testifies. She took the samples with the MVac. IMO if they called Bode and Cybergenetics without calling her first, there would be questions about who and how the samples were collected and there would be foundational questions.

It's pretty clear in her testimony IMO Even the prosecutor knew not to harp on her not having accreditation at the time... she was in the process of getting it, got it in August 2018, this isn't something that you just apply for and get, there are standards that need to be met.

Accreditation - American Association for Laboratory Accreditation

“There are standards that need to be met...”

Yes, exactly. She ran the mvac testing in her lab and it wasn’t accredited. I would have thought this was a big deal, but apparently not.

 

[la2cabo]

What really concerns me is, where were they attacked and how were they removed into a vehicle, without leaving stains on the walls, floors, ceiling, soaked into upholstry and matresses, lamp shades, woodwork, trim, windows, the sidewalk and vehicle? You can't sneak up on 4 people and tidily smash their heads in, they run away, they break and throw things, they touch their wound and then touch other things leaving blood everywhere. The killer is covered with blood and leaves it everywhere.

If you leave bodies where they die, the amount of blood will be immense, if you move the bodies quickly, you will leave a trail.

This is the comment from the current case of a woman who was blindfolded and then beaten: "Inside Berreth’s home in the Colorado mountain town, she was confronted with an unthinkable scene....Her words were when she opened the door, it was horrific... there was blood everywhere. She was tasked with disposing of certain items -- including a bloody Bible and the sweater she claims Frazee used to cover Berreth’s eyes -- as well as wiping the blood off surfaces around the home." CBI: Idaho nurse claimed Patrick Frazee fatally beat Kelsey Berreth, burned her body

She was a nurse, so experienced with creating perfectly clean environments. And she had to deal with the scene for only one body, not for four, and for a person blindfolded before being attacked. Was CM a clean freak, would he notice every stain? Wouldn't three women cleaning the home for sale notice blood stains he'd missed?

Many of us have a theory that Merritt killed Summer and the boys in the bathroom which would've been easily cleaned. Joey may have had his head covered with something as he was beat. Remember, it wouldn't take that much force or that many blows to kill Summer and the boys.

 

[smr]

What really concerns me is, where were they attacked and how were they removed into a vehicle, without leaving stains on the walls, floors, ceiling, soaked into upholstry and matresses, lamp shades, woodwork, trim, windows, the sidewalk and vehicle? You can't sneak up on 4 people and tidily smash their heads in, they run away, they break and throw things, they touch their wound and then touch other things leaving blood everywhere. The killer is covered with blood and leaves it everywhere.

If you leave bodies where they die, the amount of blood will be immense, if you move the bodies quickly, you will leave a trail.

This is the comment from the current case of a woman who was blindfolded and then beaten: "Inside Berreth’s home in the Colorado mountain town, she was confronted with an unthinkable scene....Her words were when she opened the door, it was horrific... there was blood everywhere. She was tasked with disposing of certain items -- including a bloody Bible and the sweater she claims Frazee used to cover Berreth’s eyes -- as well as wiping the blood off surfaces around the home." CBI: Idaho nurse claimed Patrick Frazee fatally beat Kelsey Berreth, burned her body

She was a nurse, so experienced with creating perfectly clean environments. And she had to deal with the scene for only one body, not for four, and for a person blindfolded before being attacked. Was CM a clean freak, would he notice every stain? Wouldn't three women cleaning the home for sale notice blood stains he'd missed?

Another example is the Canadian case of Douglas Garland abducting and killing Nathan O'Brien and his grandparents. It was believed the 3 were still alive when taken from their home. It was such a bloody scene that Nathan's mother knew they were likely murdered upon arriving. There were also drag marks from the side door to the garage. Garland was a strong, able man and the attack was in early morning when the victims were in sleep most likely.

I should add that Garland was supposedly wearing overall suit like those worn by medical examiners and gloves, and no DNA of him was found, but there was a bloody scene, even though the ground from the side door to garage had been apparently cleaned with cleaning agent, bleach or whatever.

 

[fridaybaker]

What really concerns me is, where were they attacked and how were they removed into a vehicle, without leaving stains on the walls, floors, ceiling, soaked into upholstry and matresses, lamp shades, woodwork, trim, windows, the sidewalk and vehicle? You can't sneak up on 4 people and tidily smash their heads in, they run away, they break and throw things, they touch their wound and then touch other things leaving blood everywhere. The killer is covered with blood and leaves it everywhere.

If you leave bodies where they die, the amount of blood will be immense, if you move the bodies quickly, you will leave a trail.

This is the comment from the current case of a woman who was blindfolded and then beaten: "Inside Berreth’s home in the Colorado mountain town, she was confronted with an unthinkable scene....Her words were when she opened the door, it was horrific... there was blood everywhere. She was tasked with disposing of certain items -- including a bloody Bible and the sweater she claims Frazee used to cover Berreth’s eyes -- as well as wiping the blood off surfaces around the home." CBI: Idaho nurse claimed Patrick Frazee fatally beat Kelsey Berreth, burned her body

She was a nurse, so experienced with creating perfectly clean environments. And she had to deal with the scene for only one body, not for four, and for a person blindfolded before being attacked. Was CM a clean freak, would he notice every stain? Wouldn't three women cleaning the home for sale notice blood stains he'd missed?

Satchie, I think that there were some things in his favor: I think he had considerable strength -was accustomed to significant physical work; had quite a small arsenal of "tools" readily available to him, such as drop cloths, ties, truck, etc. due to his line of work; familiarity with the layout of the house; knowledge of timing factors, such as where the family would be when; knowledge about patterns of communication with extended family, at least on a general basis; knowledge of Joey's somewhat diminished physical capacity due to "poisoning" or whatever; knowledge/experience of breaking/entering, which likely encompassed plans on how to subdue anyone who might unexpectedly interrupt him during such a venture, and likely other factors simply due to his quite close relationship with the family. Chase's history of bad dealings with people, criminality, etc., leads me to think he would be very capable of planning this kind of thing.

In addition, I think that CM had been planning this for some time (and was possibly the source of said "poisoning".) I do believe that the family were killed in the home, and that Chase was able to control much of the evidence, likely using a drop cloth, etc. Usually in this kind of scenario, where an individual takes out a household of people, they are subdued/incapacitated almost immediately, then killed at leisure, so to speak. I believe that is what happened here. It seems to me that things fit the scenario, such as no defensive wounds, Joey's broken ribs/leg, lack of blood, etc. Factors such as the element of surprise, relationship with the family, preplanning, and knowledge about family all come into play when considering how he was able to subdue then murder them.

All this to say, that even if they were killed in the home, there wouldn't necessarily be the "blood bath" that other murder scenes exhibit.

All my opinion, based on testimony and a whole lot of other things!

 

[Mica]

True.

How many times when there is a mass murder so, so,so many are convinced the suspect had to have help? I would guess and, say, every single time!

I've often wondered why that is the automatic assumption, when time after time, after time, its proven to be untrue.

LOL! I have to admit at times, I've thought this>>> 'How many cases does it take for others to know, sole perpetrators commit mass murder right by themselves?'

In fact mass murder is very often carried out by one murderer., and not the other way around.

So many times I just dont understand why so many make that automatic leap.

In fact sole mass murderers not only carry out the mass murder, they are solely involved in the discarding of all of the bodies if the victims are removed from the location where the murders took place. They are also the only one involved in the coverup, and aftermath.

Guy Heinz Jr. in Georgia, right by himself, murdered 8 of his family members, and attempted to murder a 3 year old child, who miraculously survived.

Those too were gruesome overkills, just like this one, where a deadly bludgeoning weapon was used. And I'm sure most of us remember when Richard Speck murdered 8 women by stabbing each one to death.

What it painfully shows is a bludgeoning weapon of choice by one murderer, can end the lives of a great number of innocent victims at one time. It doesn't take a gun to destroy many multiple victims at one time.

Imo, bludgeoning weapons cause a great amount of suffering to victims, including prolonged pain before they die. Imo, CM specifically chose this up close, and personal weapon to end the lives of all 4.

So I've never questioned Merritt being capable of murdering all four, with two being totally defenseless little boys.

Imo, his weapon of choice reveals a lot about who he truly is inside, and how evil to the core he still is, and who he was when he took all four lives.

Just think, he gruesomely overkills each one. Little tiny boys laying dead with their skulls crushed in along with their mom, and dad, and what does CM do?

He sits right down, and starts helping himself to his dead victim's money.

It shows how stone cold, and callous he really was that fateful night. It also shows why he deserves death, and nothing less.

Jmoo

I wonder why then “Sheriff McMahon,” a seasoned LE official, initially believed “the killings appeared to be “extremely orchestrated” and carried out by more than one person.” What made him say that? Evidence in the graves? Or just an “automatic assumption?”

 

[smr]

I wonder why then “Sheriff McMahon,” a seasoned LE official, initially believed “the killings appeared to be “extremely orchestrated” and carried out by more than one person.” What made him say that? Evidence in the graves? Or just an “automatic assumption?”

Wouldn't it be interesting to have him testify?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Great post. I hope that the prosecution team reads this, then uses it in their closing! Thank You!

Thank you.

KALI, I actually thought about you as I was writing that post.

I have found your posts profound, always making sure the Joey McStay family is never forgotten or what happened to all of them, and how they all were brutally murdered.

I appreciate your endearing reminders which are much needed at times. IMOO

We must never forget these 4 victims or how they were all murdered in cold blood in the most unimaginable sadistic way.

It is a stark frightening reminder that evil truly does walk among us all.

I'm haunted by cases like this one, where the suspect exhibited such sadist brutality against their victims.

Whether it was the Groene family who were bludgeoned to death by Joe Duncan or Heinz Jr bludgeoning to death 8 victims or what the 3 SS family, and their maid endured at the hands of Daron Wint or the 4 Gee family members who were all murdered with a tire iron by the monster who took their lives from them.

I could keep naming other cases of mass murder by using a bludgeoning weapon but the list is sadly too long.

These kind of cases have always stuck with me. I have always felt bludgeoning victims to death is the most barbaric and brutal way to murder anyone, and knowing CM did this to two tiny little boys is too much to bear for me at times

Jmo

 

[Force Ten]

I wonder why then “Sheriff McMahon,” a seasoned LE official, initially believed “the killings appeared to be “extremely orchestrated” and carried out by more than one person.” What made him say that? Evidence in the graves? Or just an “automatic assumption?”

This was right after they were found though. That could have been the overall feeling of the murders. He most likely had limited access to case as well, not directly involved in the onvestigation.

 

[missy1974]

rsbm

I've been trying to remember when they have mentioned it, aside from when they were entering the results of the DNA testing into evidence, but I can't recall. Can you remind me when or in what context it was brought up?

It was mentioned in Ryan's testimony on Day 35 Part 3, about 16 minute mark is my best guess. Specifically F39, the swab of the passenger door handle/window/lock.

 

[Mica]

Wouldn't it be interesting to have him testify?

Yes.

 

[missy1974]

“There are standards that need to be met...”

Yes, exactly. She ran the mvac testing in her lab and it wasn’t accredited. I would have thought this was a big deal, but apparently not.

Her lab was probably a lot cleaner and more sterile than where most samples are taken from lol Swabs are taken from stationary items all the time AT the crime scene or in a vehicle, also not a sterile environment. I don't see the difference. In the case of the MVAC, the tools (filter, hose, etc) all need to be changed in between. JMO

 

[missy1974]

Many of us have a theory that Merritt killed Summer and the boys in the bathroom which would've been easily cleaned. Joey may have had his head covered with something as he was beat. Remember, it wouldn't take that much force or that many blows to kill Summer and the boys.

I'm not sure of the force thing after listening to Dr. C. And the damage to Summer's jaw and face I find it hard to believe there was no blood. JMO Also, IMO, the bathrooms were not 'clean' enough to indicate there was a clean up. Dirt in the tubs, clothes, newspapers, other items with no signs of blood on them but still in there, even something as simple as a roll of toilet paper still sitting there leads me to believe that is not the case.