CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #3

[missy1974]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is the Detective was going to exhibit those DK bank statements and discuss what was on the face of the documents.

The judge only allowed him to exhibit them, but not analyse.

So then the state was simply allowed to exhibit the documents before the jury without the witness.

So I assumed this is states evidence. I actually don't know if the defence can go on a fishing expedition into DKs finances? I believe only the police can do that using Court processes?

To be honest, if one accepts DK was in Hawaii and not involved in the murders which seems now to have been established by Detectives, it shouldn't be surprising that he cooperated at least to some extent in order to exclude himself from the inquiries

During that first week or so of trial, I was back in the McStay forum, reading some of the old threads, one of them was the Pretrial hearing threads, I was curious to see what all the delays were over the years. I distinctly recall that the Defense had subpoenaed records, secretly IIRC, it was part of the delay, some of the companies, PayPal included, weren't complying. IIRC, they even had a hearing with PayPal being represented. I recall reading that they subpoenaed phone records as well and were having troubles, I don't recall a bank being mentioned, but they were definitely subpoenaing records on their own, my assumption is some of those were related to DK.

I will go look later and see if I can find anything about this, but I know I read it

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I hope so ocean. For the record I believe he’s guilty. But I can certainly see how a juror or some jurors wouldn’t come to the conclusion.

Morning Brad. Always nice to 'see' you on this forum and others, like always.

I fully do understand your worry. Yet I do believe 99.9 percent of jurors take their duties very seriously.

If they apply the law that they will be given in paper form citing the required burden of proof after jury instructions, I believe they will follow the law as they are required to do.

They will be able to take these jury instructions with them in the deliberation room.

It will cite the law they are to follow. Most judges stress to the jurors they must follow the law as it is written.

Also in the state's CA they will explain the law showing what has to be proven BARD. It's only one thing they must prove BARD.

They usually put it up on the large Elmo going line by line with the jury so they further understand what their burden of proof is.

I imagine the state attorney during closing will also inform the jury they don't have to agree with their theory as to where it happened.

I've seen many prosecutors remind the jury of these same things that arent required elements they are legally required to prove.

Take care.

Ocean

 

[missy1974]

You can’t blame the defense for pursuing the DK wasn’t in Hawaii strategy, after all it was the prosecution’s witness who stated the verification of the trip was supported by nothing more than an online ticket reservation. If the prosecution want’s to end the defense’s tactic, all they need to do is introduce direct evidence (not hearsay) explaining in detail how the verification was done. If they have such evidence you would think they would have presented it by now, before the jury starts believing it.

This is how I feel. Everytime DK comes up, the State objects, which by law, it might the right call, etc. BUT if they are that confident about their verification of his trip to Hawaii, IMO they need to get it out there so it's in the juror's minds every time the Defense mentions his name so they can disregard what is being asked or said. JMO

 

[missy1974]

Actually, we've only seen Joseph's bank records to my recollection.

The other day, we got a glimpse at DK's bank statement from February 2010. We also got a glimpse of CM's. It was after the Geis construction witnesses.

 

[Texas Red]

I suppose anything is possible, but it's odd that Merritt would be so savvy as to go to all that trouble to make sure his phone is not pinging along with Joey's on the ride to Fallbrook but then he is suddenly dim enough to take along his own phone to Victorville while he buries the bodies.

And SM & JM cell phones, SM purse, and JM wallet were never found iirc. The most reasonable explanation is because the killer wanted people to think that the family disappeared voluntarily and of course they would have taken their cell phones and purse/wallet. But then it's odd that those would not have been tossed in the graves with them as well. I wonder why those items were disposed of separately? Not that it would make a difference in this case, I'm just wondering aloud out of curiosity lol.

If in fact all of the victims hands were removed, it would be logical that no other items that could ID the victims would be left in the graves.

 

[Force Ten]

the defense is pushing HARD that the murders did not occur until the morning of the 5th.

Why? Why do they need it to be the 5th and not the 4th?

Because IMO the prosecution has conclusive evidence Chase was in Fallbrook the night of the 4th. So far all we know is quick books and chases phone is off the grid. Do they have something else we don't know about yet?
If he was, he lied to investigators.

Because it provides an alibi of sorts for Merritt. His phone was pinging all over the map from Ranco Cucamonga to Santa Clarita on the 5th. It really the one window the defense has IMO. I have to laugh to myself though because they are going to challenge the pings were in error at the graves site on the 6th.

 

[cobalt sky]

If in fact all of the victims hands were removed, it would be logical that no other items that could ID the victims would be left in the graves.

Even if he removed all of their hands and teeth, he buried them all together lol! How many families of 4, a man and woman and two small children, have gone missing recently? It wouldn't be hard to put 2 and 2 together. Also, he threw things in the grave like the child's backpack, which certainly family would recognize... and it was something that he didn't really need to take with him from the home so that is another mystery.

 

[missy1974]

Because it provides an alibi of sorts for Merritt. His phone was pinging all over the map from Ranco Cucamonga to Santa Clarita. It really the one window the defense has IMO. I have to laugh to myself though because they are going to challenge the pings were in error at the graves site on the 6th.

I hope the State gets to this stuff soon, the cell phones and the Quickbooks, it will remind me and others just how guilty he is

 

[Force Ten]

Exactly.

I find it very annoying that the Pros immediately object to every question related to DK. It makes it look like they have something to hide. If there is concrete evidence that DK was in Hawaii then why haven't we heard about it yet? And I mean I want evidence directly from the airline, or bank activity, hotel/lodging, not some e-receipt or something that DK could have easily faked or doctored. It doesn't matter that DK is not on trial, I'm confident that once the jury understands how ingrained DK was in the business, and that he benefited from JM's disappearance, they are going to want the same questions answered and the same proof that it would have been impossible for him to be either directly or indirectly involved. So far the Pros has not done that imo.

To be fair, I am somewhat selfish in wanting the DK situation cleared up because from the very beginning he has been my #1 suspect.

It's annoying that the defense keeps trying to bring things up that the Pros objects to for the judge to sustain, again and again and again. DK is not on trial and the investigation has ruled him out as having anything to do with the murders. It's really a shameless move by the defense to create doubt in the jurors minds, even though they are not to consider interjections by them that the judge has overruled.

 

[Texas Red]

This is how I feel. Everytime DK comes up, the State objects, which by law, it might the right call, etc. BUT if they are that confident about their verification of his trip to Hawaii, IMO they need to get it out there so it's in the juror's minds every time the Defense mentions his name so they can disregard what is being asked or said. JMO

At this point I’m speculating that DK really wasn’t in Hawaii, but his reasons for orchestrating the guise are related to something other than the murders.

 

[Tortoise]

I suppose anything is possible, but it's odd that Merritt would be so savvy as to go to all that trouble to make sure his phone is not pinging along with Joey's on the ride to Fallbrook but then he is suddenly dim enough to take along his own phone to Victorville while he buries the bodies.

And SM & JM cell phones, SM purse, and JM wallet were never found iirc. The most reasonable explanation is because the killer wanted people to think that the family disappeared voluntarily and of course they would have taken their cell phones and purse/wallet. But then it's odd that those would not have been tossed in the graves with them as well. I wonder why those items were disposed of separately? Not that it would make a difference in this case, I'm just wondering aloud out of curiosity lol.

It is strange that he didn't bury their phones but Summer's cell phone case was in the grave. I suspect he may have been undecided at that point on using it at some point to fake texts to people but changed his mind because it would always be traceable to wherever he was.

I think he does rash things that he later wants to erase - like the quickbooks cheque at the house. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time, to make it appear Joey did it, until he realised that it didn't look like Joey did it because it was a completely different vendor and it put him right at the scene of the crime.

 

[cobalt sky]

It's annoying that the defense keeps trying to bring things up that the Pros objects to for the judge to sustain, again and again and again. DK is not on trial and the investigation has ruled him out as having anything to do with the murders. It's really a shameless move by the defense to create doubt in the jurors minds, even though they are not to consider interjections by them that the judge has overruled.

Then why doesn't the Pros just attack this right now? Show the evidence that DK was not involved, instead of constantly objecting and drawing MORE attention to it? Maybe they have their reasons, and it will all make sense later. I admit I'm not the most patient person.

 

[Bernina]

What if he pumped the tires at some point after leaving the first grave, as it rained more and the ground got boggier and he worried about getting stuck?

What if it's just removing 2 of the bodies which relieved the truck of weight, driving the vehicle to the next grave an removing the other 2 bodies? That could explain the depth change in the tire imprints......
CM was also driving in a wash, so he would be navigating on a surface that had sand, caliche, and rock under the mud.

I drove 2 different service trucks for a mobile home set-up/teardown company between '91-''95 on the rez in the 4 Corners area where most of the "roads" where primitive. I've also lived in the High Desert of Arizona for the last 24 years where the nearest paved road is 4 miles away. If you KNOW the area, you can navigate it w/o 4 wheel drive, specially during the February rain and summer monsoons.

Plus, CM was a gold prospector, he was used to getting into unusual driving situations. He wasn't some city slicker who found himself out in the mud without his triple A card. I'm sure he had a few bottle jacks, 2 x 4's, and maybe some pieces of carpet in his truck if he got stuck. He KNEW that area.

 

[Texas Red]

Even if he removed all of their hands and teeth, he buried them all together lol! How many families of 4, a man and woman and two small children, have gone missing recently? It wouldn't be hard to put 2 and 2 together. Also, he threw things in the grave like the child's backpack, which certainly family would recognize... and it was something that he didn't really need to take with him from the home so that is another mystery.

If nothing else, it would make the ID process more difficult and time consuming. There are a lot of missing people and there's no way to immediately confirm that the bodies were all from the same family.
I'm not aware of how long it took in this case to confirm the bodies were the McStay Family.

 

[missy1974]

During that first week or so of trial, I was back in the McStay forum, reading some of the old threads, one of them was the Pretrial hearing threads, I was curious to see what all the delays were over the years. I distinctly recall that the Defense had subpoenaed records, secretly IIRC, it was part of the delay, some of the companies, PayPal included, weren't complying. IIRC, they even had a hearing with PayPal being represented. I recall reading that they subpoenaed phone records as well and were having troubles, I don't recall a bank being mentioned, but they were definitely subpoenaing records on their own, my assumption is some of those were related to DK.

I will go look later and see if I can find anything about this, but I know I read it

Replying to myself haha

From the Pretrial hearings thread..

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ssion-january-2016-and-forward.298687/page-15
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ssion-january-2016-and-forward.298687/page-26

I found some articles, but the sbsun articles, I have reached my limit and can't read them unless I put my VPN on. There is mention in one article that the State was not included in an in chambers hearing.

Reading through the posts on those pages I linked, it's clear the Defense subpoenaed records on their own, phone and Paypal and a towing company for sure, we know because they weren't complying and they had to hold hearings.

 

[Tssiemer]

I don’t think he removed the hands. Why leave Joey’s right one then?

 

[mrjitty]

Exactly.

I find it very annoying that the Pros immediately object to every question related to DK. It makes it look like they have something to hide. If there is concrete evidence that DK was in Hawaii then why haven't we heard about it yet? And I mean I want evidence directly from the airline, or bank activity, hotel/lodging, not some e-receipt or something that DK could have easily faked or doctored. It doesn't matter that DK is not on trial, I'm confident that once the jury understands how ingrained DK was in the business, and that he benefited from JM's disappearance, they are going to want the same questions answered and the same proof that it would have been impossible for him to be either directly or indirectly involved. So far the Pros has not done that imo.

To be fair, I am somewhat selfish in wanting the DK situation cleared up because from the very beginning he has been my #1 suspect.

I really feel you guys are going down the rabbit hole on this.

There is not one single piece of evidence that DK murdered the McStays

The Prosecution has already twice given evidence of how he was cleared.

1 x documentary evidence
1 x direct testimony explaining that detectives worked the angle and eliminated him

What more do you want?

 

[mrjitty]

It's annoying that the defense keeps trying to bring things up that the Pros objects to for the judge to sustain, again and again and again. DK is not on trial and the investigation has ruled him out as having anything to do with the murders. It's really a shameless move by the defense to create doubt in the jurors minds, even though they are not to consider interjections by them that the judge has overruled.

Agreed

it has become absurd.

 

[mrjitty]

This is how I feel. Everytime DK comes up, the State objects, which by law, it might the right call, etc. BUT if they are that confident about their verification of his trip to Hawaii, IMO they need to get it out there so it's in the juror's minds every time the Defense mentions his name so they can disregard what is being asked or said. JMO

The reason why they don't is that it just allows the defence more red meat to peck at.

No matter when documentary proof of flights and a team investigating DK is placed in evidence this is then spun as "the police are hiding something"

What evidence will really be good enough for people?

 

[cobalt sky]

The reason why they don't is that it just allows the defence more red meat to peck at.

No matter when documentary proof of flights and a team investigating DK is placed in evidence this is then spun as "the police are hiding something"

What evidence will really be good enough for people?

I'm sorry I must have missed the documentary proof of flights? I remember someone testifying (DuGal?) that he was shown a flight reservation or something to that effect? A witness testifying that they believe DK was in Hawaii is not the same as irrefutable proof, something I haven't seen yet. But maybe I missed it? No, I'm not taking their word for it, the nurse in me wants to see DOCUMENTATION!!!