CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #6

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Wow, 2 days to catch up on thread 5 and now 6. There have been so many posts about QB and who wrote what checks, that even with quotes from transcripts of what has been testified about, I am so lost, leaning one way and then the other. I finally had to skip many of them. I just hope this trial will produce the killer/s and justice served.
 
Is it possible that the key to this is: that the computer and the neighbor’s camera were using two different clocks, and one wasn’t set to the right time?

This is exactly what I posted upthread.

I wonder if in the exhibited evidence there is any evidence of an effort to reconcile the security clock?

The computer is likely to have been correct as these frequently use a network time which should be close enough to the phone records.

However the security cam is a local device which requires the user to input the time.

Devices like these can easily have the incorrect times. e.g due to power failure on resets, day light saving etc etc

e.g. as I sit here my computer says 8.54 am but my analogue watch says 9.02 am!
 
You guys posted a lot last night :)

So some of the inconsistencies I do find intriguing is the 8pm Cheque written and then deleted on the McStay computer as we know he had already done a dry run days before so in a sense this makes it seem like a different person wrote the cheque in the house, maybe this points to a second person involved in the crime?

I don’t believe that Chase had the knowledge to know that Eggs left out with coffee would create such a stink to hide body odour. Also if that indeed is the case then that means the body’s were left over night as if he had taken them out pretty much straight away they wouldn’t stink.

Would he really of risked leaving 4 dead bodies in the home on the 4th over night? That would be madness.
 
Why would he do this? He's not moving an armoire, he's moving four people he just murdered. Why return to write a check he could have written
They never left the home, IMO. CM came to their home after JM confronted him earlier in the day, so CM could "explain" why he had accessed his $$$ and keep Jm from going to the police. Things went south and CM, in his rage, ended up killing JM and then the rest because he had already "went too far with JM", IMO.
Edmo. This theory is totally in line with my thinking but can’t help feeling like it was premeditated, rather than spur of the moment. The reason? He turned his phone off BEFORE setting off on that fatal journey to Fallbrook...
 
It seems it might be worth leading the poor old circumstantial evidence carthorse once more to the trough ;)

It is a legal error to speculate away the circumstantial points 1 by 1

But it can also be very difficult to keep the process of legal inference compartmentalised from questions of evidence, and to avoid dipping between the two in a speculative way.

Finally one needs to be very aware of how the evidential burden and standard of proof needs to be applied point by point.

Phew!

So let's try to put that all together in an example, so we can see how easy it is to get led up a garden path instead of drinking the water (ouch mixed metaphors)

IMO the state has already proved the following things

* Chase created a new vendor all lower case and created, printed and deleted cheques. He forged Joey's signature. He backdated cheques. He cashed multiple forged cheques
* Chase called Quickbooks pretending to be Joey, and asked QB to delete all the QB data.

The State will then ask the jury to draw a natural and obvious inference. Chase was stealing from Joey and sought to conceal this fact.

At this point the defence would like to lead the jury up the garden path by speculating alternate answers

Joey knew all about the cheques. Joey authorised Chase to call QBs because he was changing his accounting....

Double Red Alert!

This speculation lacks any foundation in evidence. The defence must be able to point to some evidence that Joey authorised that. That Joey was changing his accounting. Ideally a direct witness to those matters - who just so happens to be available to the defence!

Now here a razor sharp judge would be super sceptical about some obvious "defendant testifying via his sock puppet counsel"

Why doesn't the state produce the recording where Chase said it was all legit? Why doesn't the state call some other customer service rep whom Chase told it was all legit?

Holy speculative hearsay batman!

The defence, without calling the direct witness they have at their disposal, would like the jury to draw speculative inferences, based on a version Chase is telling via his counsel. Importantly the defence is not meeting the evidential burden to establish any of this as a live question at trial.

It's seductive, but this is where we can get into big trouble by leaping from inference to speculation & henpecking the evidence to death.

(carthorse, batman and now a hen :p)

So let's be careful. Inferences must be based on evidence. Speculation is never allowed. Especially the Jury is allowed to draw natural and obvious inferences and each one does NOT need to be to BARD standard.

I will take it all back if CM takes the stand and testifies to all of this.
 
It seems it might be worth leading the poor old circumstantial evidence carthorse once more to the trough ;)

It is a legal error to speculate away the circumstantial points 1 by 1

But it can also be very difficult to keep the process of legal inference compartmentalised from questions of evidence, and to avoid dipping between the two in a speculative way.

Finally one needs to be very aware of how the evidential burden and standard of proof needs to be applied point by point.

Phew!

So let's try to put that all together in an example, so we can see how easy it is to get led up a garden path instead of drinking the water (ouch mixed metaphors)

IMO the state has already proved the following things

* Chase created a new vendor all lower case and created, printed and deleted cheques. He forged Joey's signature. He backdated cheques. He cashed multiple forged cheques
* Chase called Quickbooks pretending to be Joey, and asked QB to delete all the QB data.

The State will then ask the jury to draw a natural and obvious inference. Chase was stealing from Joey and sought to conceal this fact.

At this point the defence would like to lead the jury up the garden path by speculating alternate answers

Joey knew all about the cheques. Joey authorised Chase to call QBs because he was changing his accounting....

Double Red Alert!

This speculation lacks any foundation in evidence. The defence must be able to point to some evidence that Joey authorised that. That Joey was changing his accounting. Ideally a direct witness to those matters - who just so happens to be available to the defence!

Now here a razor sharp judge would be super sceptical about some obvious "defendant testifying via his sock puppet counsel"

Why doesn't the state produce the recording where Chase said it was all legit? Why doesn't the state call some other customer service rep whom Chase told it was all legit?

Holy speculative hearsay batman!

The defence, without calling the direct witness they have at their disposal, would like the jury to draw speculative inferences, based on a version Chase is telling via his counsel. Importantly the defence is not meeting the evidential burden to establish any of this as a live question at trial.

It's seductive, but this is where we can get into big trouble by leaping from inference to speculation & henpecking the evidence to death.

(carthorse, batman and now a hen :p)

So let's be careful. Inferences must be based on evidence. Speculation is never allowed. Especially the Jury is allowed to draw natural and obvious inferences and each one does NOT need to be to BARD standard.

I will take it all back if CM takes the stand and testifies to all of this.

Yes I can see fraud and I am sure all of us can but that does not prove murder that’s the sticking stone here.

I know he is a thief I can see his records going back decades. But I can not see any proof he did anymore than steal off people quite blatantly it might be added.

Ripping off Joey is what he did to 100’s of people but that doesn’t equate murder.
 
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I just read that yesterday I think, about the deposit.

P. MCSTAY: Morning of the 4th and I spoke Joey on the phone.

KAYE: But he didn't let anything was wrong...

P. MCSTAY: No, nothing was wrong.

KAYE: ... on your last conversation.

P. MCSTAY: You know, everything is fine.

KAYE: In fact things were better than fine. Joseph had just received a big paycheck for one of his fountains, $16,000.

P. MCSTAY: He was going to go to the bank and deposit a check. There was a branch of the bank right there at Rancho Cucamonga by where Chase lived.

CNN.com - Transcripts

I am still a bit unsure about what Patrick says though... is he assuming he was going to the bank in RC... or is that what Joey told him... or does he know that he went there after the fact (after looking at statements)

If Patrick knew about the RC meeting when he spoke to him that morning, and if it was a planned lunch, it seems to me that Joey might have mentioned something to his Dad if there was a problem or if he was going to fire Merritt or whatever. But he says everything was fine.

I have been thinking about that too---about whether Joey would have told anyone if he found out Chase had written a check and cashed it, without permission.

I am not sure that he would have said anything to anyone that morning. It seems to me that Joey was trying to 'help' Chase, and figured that he could be a good mentor and benefactor and be generous , and that would turn things around for Chase.

I am not sure that he would say anything if he caught Chase cheating or stealing. Not until he talked to him first, and tried to understand it and work something out anyway. JMO
 
Wednesday, February 13th:
*Trial continues (Day 18) (@ 9:30am PT) - CA - McStay Family: Joseph (40), Summer (43), Gianni (4) & Joey Jr (3) (Feb. 4, 2010, Fallbrook; found Nov. 11, 2013) - *Charles "Chase" Ray Merritt (57/now 60) arrested (11/5/14) & indicted (11/7/14) of 4 counts of murder with special circumstance; plead not guilty. DP case.
12 jurors & 6 alternates were finalized on Tuesday (12/11/18). 8 women & 4 men, while the alternates include 4 men & 2 women. Trial started 1/7/19. Dark on Fridays.
Skipping Day 1 thru 6 – reference post #1180 here: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #2
Skipping Day 7 thru 11 – reference post #1121 here: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #3
Skipping Day 12 thru 14 - Reference post #217 here: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #5
2/5/19 Day 15: Trial today w/NO JURY. 402 Hearing. Expect arguments regarding testimony from the QuickBooks rep that spoke to a "Joseph McStay" on Feb 9, 2010, however prosecutors say the phone used to make the call was Charles Merritt's. The gist is Ryan Baker, QuickBooks customer service rep is having surgery and prosecution wants to have him appear via video before surgery on Thursday. Defense says they want him there. Defense says they have not been given doctor's notes to prove the witness is having surgery or to prove he cannot travel. They are now arguing about the process of testifying by Skype. Dr Leonid I Rudin is a professional photogrammeographer. Master of Science in Mathematics and Phd in Photography. Testifying re truck leaving the Fallbrook home. Judge says to come back tomorrow at 10:30. The defense says that at 9am, they want to have a meeting about the lack of timely discovery from the state.
2/6/19 Day 16: Judge delaying Rudin’s testimony until Feb 19th. State witnesses: Video/Skype testimony from Ryan Baker, QuickBooks customer service rep. re. phone call received on Feb 9th 2010 asking QB to delete their EIP QB records, claiming to be from Joseph McStay. Michael Russ, Crime Scene Specialist, about the Faro Scan & processing of Merritt's truck in 2014. Legal argument follows outside presence of jury regarding rescheduling of witnesses, court may be dark on Monday 11th, defense wants more discovery from pros. re google earth cell tower mapping, Boles' expertise, & the expertise of their additional cell mapping expert who may be a rebuttal witness to def. expert, & reports from pros. financial analyst, pros. to provide judge with financial graphs & excel spreadsheets 2/7 am, judge threatens to cite def. counsel for misconduct if they raise disallowed material re DK in front of jury. Trial continues on 2/7.
2/7/19 Day 17: DELAYED: A juror was involved in an accident. Next update from court is at 11am PST/2pm EST to see if trial will happen today. The juror who was involved in the accident today is an alternate. He broke his wrist trying to get storage containers down from the rafters in his garage. It was not a car accident. State witnesses: Sgt. Ryan Smith is recalled to the stand by the state. He conducted a search of Charles Merritt's home on 10/22/14. Det. Jason Schroeder - Hi-tech Crime Division, Hisperia PD. No court until Wednesday, Feb. 13th.
 
Yes I can see fraud and I am sure all of us can but that does not prove murder that’s the sticking stone here.

I know he is a thief I can see his records going back decades. But I can not see any proof he did anymore than steal off people quite blatantly it might be added.

Ripping off Joey is what he did to 100’s of peoples but that doesn’t equate murder.


Right.

But what about that check that was created on the evening of Feb 4th, on Joey's desktop?

If we accept that Chase was the one that created that check, on that night, then that is a big red flag. He has always said that he last saw Joey at Chick Fila at 3 pm. So if we now find out that Chase lied about that, and he was actually there in the Fallbrook home that night---that is a big step towards him possibly being involved in the murders.

There is no way that Joey could have been there, alive and well, if Chase was writing that check from Joey's QB account that night.
 
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Is it possible that the key to this is: that the computer and the neighbor’s camera were using two different clocks, and one wasn’t set to the right time?
It's very possible, but unless it was 30 minutes out, I believe Chase did park up nearby and go back to the house for half an hour. In which case he either walked back and entered through the front door or he walked across the vacant plot behind the house and entered through the fence and the back window. I think this because Joey's phone was still in Fallbrook at 8.28 pm, half an hour after the cheque was created. That also is one hour before Chase was in Mira Loma at 9.32 pm, which is an hour away from Fallbrook.
 
I was listening again to McGee's OS, and his very first opening statement in that presentation, really really bothered me...:mad:

He said that when Maline brought him onto the defense team, he didnt even know anything about the McStay case. So after reading the police files and reports , this is what jumped out at him:

"This isn’t a case about murders—murders happen every day—this is a case that somebody wanted this family to disappear—and that struck me—who wanted them to disappear and who had to gain from their disappearance…?"

REALLY?
This quadruple murder, where an entire innocent family was bludgeoned to death, was not about 'murder' , because ' murders happen every day'? Seriously? Two tiny boys were slaughtered, alongside their loving mother, but it's not about that, that happens every day....:eek:

I found that incredibly dismissive and insulting. It wasn't just about the family disappearing. They could have disappeared in a much less brutal and coldblooded way, if it wasn't also about 'murder.'
 
Yes I can see fraud and I am sure all of us can but that does not prove murder that’s the sticking stone here.

I know he is a thief I can see his records going back decades. But I can not see any proof he did anymore than steal off people quite blatantly it might be added.

Ripping off Joey is what he did to 100’s of people but that doesn’t equate murder.

Agreed, and this is why I suspect the case rather more appeals to those with nerdish tendencies who love deductive and inductive reasoning as opposed to those who approach the case more based on narratives.

Jurors tend to like stories and the how, where, when stuff. They want to see the proof of Chase with hammer in hand, repainting walls, digging graves etc.

To me the case is never about that. It's only about the who. All that stuff happened somehow. The question is not how this crime was concealed for 4 years but who did it.

So for me, fraud creates a motive. The timing is perfect for why trouble happened that specific day. The cheques and computer searches place CM at the crime scene. The video implicates his truck. His DNA is on the drivers side.

So i can see why it feels thin but you have to realise all the other stuff is not at issue in the trial.
 
It's very possible, but unless it was 30 minutes out, I believe Chase did park up nearby and go back to the house for half an hour. In which case he either walked back and entered through the front door or he walked across the vacant plot behind the house and entered through the fence and the back window. I think this because Joey's phone was still in Fallbrook at 8.28 pm, half an hour after the cheque was created. That also is one hour before Chase was in Mira Loma at 9.32 pm, which is an hour away from Fallbrook.

I wonder if he moved his Truck to park the Trooper back in the driveway

Something I wondered about is if the Trooper was parked where you would expect, and he moved it in order to back his truck up to the garage to load the bodies

Then he drove out, and then put the trooper back

But I am not sure why the trooper would not be captured?
 
I was listening again to McGee's OS, and his very first opening statement in that presentation, really really bothered me...:mad:

He said that when Maline brought him onto the defense team, he didnt even know anything about the McStay case. So after reading the police files and reports , this is what jumped out at him:

"This isn’t a case about murders—murders happen every day—this is a case that somebody wanted this family to disappear—and that struck me—who wanted them to disappear and who had to gain from their disappearance…?"

REALLY?
This quadruple murder, where an entire innocent family was bludgeoned to death, was not about 'murder' , because ' murders happen every day'? Seriously? Two tiny boys were slaughtered, alongside their loving mother, but it's not about that, that happens every day....:eek:

I found that incredibly dismissive and insulting. It wasn't just about the family disappearing. They could have disappeared in a much less brutal and coldblooded way, if it wasn't also about 'murder.'

I was struck by that as well, and actually thought it was a dumb thing to say as it implicates his own client :p
 
It's very possible, but unless it was 30 minutes out, I believe Chase did park up nearby and go back to the house for half an hour. In which case he either walked back and entered through the front door or he walked across the vacant plot behind the house and entered through the fence and the back window. I think this because Joey's phone was still in Fallbrook at 8.28 pm, half an hour after the cheque was created. That also is one hour before Chase was in Mira Loma at 9.32 pm, which is an hour away from Fallbrook.

What was Chase's explanation of how he got the 7.58pm 4 Feb Check's if Joey producted them?
 
What was Chase's explanation of how he got the 7.58pm 4 Feb Check's if Joey producted them?

The 7:58 pm check created on the 4th, was deleted. It was never cashed. It was made out to chase merritt for 4000 dollars, with 'paul mitchell' on the memo line.


The next day, about noon;

12:06 Quickbooks accessed, check created for “chase merritt” for $4500 with ‘paul mitchell” on the memo line.

12:12 Check printed. Then the check date was edited from February 5 to February 4, 2010.


12:19 User creates vendor “metro sheet metal”.

12:21 Check created for $1650 with “Miscellaneous Manufacturer” on memo line. Backdated to February 4. Printed and deleted.

12:25 Check created for $250 to “metro sheet metal”, backdated to February 4.

12:29 Check created for $6505 to “charles merritt” with “Balance sa (1001), period.”. Backdated to February 4. Deleted.

12:33 Check for $2350 to “charles merritt” created, backdated to February 4, printed and deleted. This check would later be deposited at Bank of America.

12:38 $4500 check deleted. This check would be cashed at BOA on the same day.

In retrospect on this day, 5 checks would be created – all backdated to February 4 – for the sum of $15,255 in the span of 35 minutes.
 
What was Chase's explanation of how he got the 7.58pm 4 Feb Check's if Joey producted them?
That cheque ($4000, memo line Paul Mitchell) wasn't ever printed.

It looks like he got a bit greedier overnight and decided to give himself an extra $500 because he printed one the next day for $4500 memo line Paul Mitchell.
 
That cheque ($4000, memo line Paul Mitchell) wasn't ever printed.

It looks like he got a bit greedier overnight and decided to give himself an extra $500 because he printed one the next day for $4500 memo line Paul Mitchell.

Amazing coincidence that he would create and delete the same cheque that was made at the house the night before but without any comms with Joey
 
I wonder if he moved his Truck to park the Trooper back in the driveway

Something I wondered about is if the Trooper was parked where you would expect, and he moved it in order to back his truck up to the garage to load the bodies

Then he drove out, and then put the trooper back

But I am not sure why the trooper would not be captured?
I can't even think of a reason he would do that and increase the chances of being seen for no gain. He knew the family was going to disappear and he wanted it to look like they were still alive. So he would want the Trooper not sitting outside the house. Anyone dropping by the next day such as McGyver showing up to do painting would know there was a problem if both vehicles were at home and no answer and report a welfare check, but Chase wasn't ready for that yet as we know the computer was accessed again on the 5th and 8th. I think he may have driven it away from its parking spot in the street in front of the house and left it in the neighborhood or parked on the vacant plot.
 
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