CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

[Wild Rose]

Mom might have left for help and she could have gone in circles off the trail because if you have heat stroke, it is hard to make connections in your mind even when your eyes are sending images. She could have gone quite a distance but ended up near to the family IMO

 

[Officer Dibble]

RS&BBM

RS&BBM

@eptichka83, great sleuthing! I am not convinced either, given toxicology and environmental health were a big part of my early professional career. But as you yourself infer, there are many factors that also make this possibility a bit remote such as the fact they were found dead a fair distance away from any mine vs. at the site of a mine.

That said, I have wondered as I think maybe others have previously, whether the family was trying to find the Liberty Lode or Blossom #1 mine and got lost, or walked by the required cut off and had to backtrack once or twice and in doing so wore themselves out to the point of heat exhaustion and then eventually heat stroke. Having tried to find a mine myself in the Rockies, I can attest to how easy it is to miss the cut off and end up hiking a long distance up hill, at altitude and in high heat.

Gone into a mine to cool off but something toxic got them in there perhaps? JMO MOO

 

[GatorFL]

It would be very tedious, and almost impossible for the dog.
It's actually a big red flag for me if the mom wasn't carrying a day pack. She would have needed a day pack to do anything more than about 15 minutes total My 25 lb doggie needs water any further than that, but so do I. And I'm certainly not out there above 80 degrees.

But I'm still trying to make the family's decisions compatible with some kind of trip on those trails. Only carrying 3L of water would be waaaaaaaay off of potentially workable. That's why I can't think of them doing the loop.

I mean, there are dumb mistakes, and then there's completely out of touch.

Thing is, I think this couple was experienced enough to know they would need more than a Camelbak for a hike in the heat.

We still don't even know how big the bladder was, it could have been smaller than 3L.

 

[Officer Dibble]

@LifeIsAMystery, thank you. I agree with @Officer Dibble that this is an amazing read - riveting, shocking and educational. I particularly appreciate the sentence: "Exertional heatstroke, on the other hand, pounces on the young and fit. Exercise drastically accelerates temperature rise." That sure sounds like it applies to this case.

I had wondered if someone could commit suicide by inducing heatstroke so as to camouflage taking their own life. But after reading this, I have my answer!

thank you.......and the fact that wearing something close to the body (like a baby carrier) stops sweat evaporating and that causes a big issue re heat shock.

 

[JustReading01]

@RedHaus Re Point #17 on the Savage-Lundy Trail. Yes, I am intrigued by their trail conditions notes.

Possibly there was enough growth to make footing on the trail a pain. The trail is not impeded this year, but would take more time to walk though, or to place each step.

www.MariposaTrails.org - Google My Maps

 

[Andreee]

Heat stroke has not been ruled out as a cause of death. The only causes of death that have been ruled out are blunt force trauma and "chemical hazards" along the trail. Based on recent media reports, law enforcement is waiting for toxicology results before commenting further on a possible COD.

By the way, it's often difficult or impossible for an autopsy to confirm that heat stroke was the cause of death. “The autopsy findings of heat stroke may be minimal and are non-specific, particularly if the survival interval is short" (from https://www.aaimedicine.org/journal-of-insurance-medicine/jim/2002/034-02-0114.pdf). When heat stroke is listed as an official cause of death, it's usually after all other possibilities are eliminated.

You mention that the official word is that these deaths are "unique" and "strange." Law enforcement used a lot of such language initially, but that began to change last week. In a statement on Thursday, the Mariposa County Sheriff’s Office continued to say that they were investigating various potential causes of death, but--for the first time--they focused more on the conditions that day:

"The sheriff’s office said the entire Savage-Lundy Trail loop, where the family was found dead, is approximately 8.5 miles, with 5 miles of that being a 'steep southern exposure path with little-to-no trees or shade' in the 2018 Ferguson Fire burn scar. Sheriff officials said temperatures there appeared to range from 103 and 109 in certain parts of that trail between 11:50 a.m. and 5:50 p.m. Aug. 15, the day the family is believed to have been hiking it."​

Source: https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article253770788.htm

I'm not suggesting that law enforcement has concluded that heat stroke was the COD, but I think they've shifted from not thinking about it at all to thinking that it's likely, or at least not unlikely.

I guess it would be too much to hope for a time of death, as to who succumbed first type thing. Sounds daft, I know, it is just that if there was a gap between the demise of various family members, it sure would've helped put the whole tragic event together more. But even knowing the cause would give the family answers.

 

[Seattle1]

San Francisco Chronicle[URL='https://twitter.com/sfchronicle']@sfchronicle[/URL]

The temperature reached 109 degrees, investigators believe, when a Mariposa County family hiked along a remote trail. It was as hot as 106 when Philip Kreycik went for a jog. “Everyone is high risk when it’s so hot outside." https://trib.al/xtz2vqG




9:05 AM · Aug 29, 2021·

San Francisco Chronicle@sfchronicle

The temperature reached 109 degrees, investigators believe, when a Mariposa County family hiked along a remote trail. It was as hot as 106 when Philip Kreycik went for a jog. Are their deaths tied to climate change?

The family on a hike. The runner who never came home. Are their deaths tied to climate change? State climate scientists say with rising temperatures in California, there will only be... sfchronicle.com
5:52 AM · Aug 28, 2021

Matthias Gafni@mgafni

NEW: Mariposa rules out gunshots or other weapons, and mine exposure along trail as causes of death in mysterious passing of entire family & dog on hiking trail. Toxicology & other tests pending
Investigators have ruled out 2 causes of death in case of Mariposa family, but still have no answers The Mariposa County sheriff released updates Thursday on the baffling deaths of a former...sfchronicle.com
1:59 PM · Aug 26, 2021

Replying to
@mgafni
Sheriff provided more details about the remote hike: 8.5-mile loop, 5 of those on steep stretch w/ little-to-no shade on day where temps ranged 103-109, & mix in 2018 Ferguson Fire scar that burned off whatever cover there might have been
Investigators have ruled out 2 causes of death in case of Mariposa family, but still have no answers The Mariposa County sheriff released updates Thursday on the baffling deaths of a former...sfchronicle.com
2:25 PM · Aug 26, 2021

Replying to
@mgafni
Sheriff also waiting for results of water samples re: toxic bacteria blooms, and sent father's cell phone to FBI two days ago to try to extract data & find clues. He had been researching the hike the day before on phone app, investigators said
Investigators have ruled out 2 causes of death in case of Mariposa family, but still have no answers The Mariposa County sheriff released updates Thursday on the baffling deaths of a former...sfchronicle.com
2:31 PM · Aug 26, 2021

 

[Seattle1]

A Family Was Found Dead on Remote California Hiking Trail. Cause of Death Remains Mystery 8/25/21

A married couple, their 1-year-old daughter, and their dog took off on a day hike in Mariposa County and never returned. Their bodies were found on a remote trail, with no signs of trauma. Officials are mystified over the cause of death — toxic gas from mines in the area and dangerous algae bloom have been considered as possibilities.

Credit: Eryn Tolentino, Matthias Gafni, Megan Cassidy andTracy Barbutes. Family photo courtesy of Steve Jeffe Read more: https://bit.ly/3DkIGOc

 

[RickshawFan]

Thing is, I think this couple was experienced enough to know they would need more than a Camelbak for a hike in the heat.

We still don't even know how big the bladder was, it could have been smaller than 3L.

Totally. I was thinking 3L was best case scenario if they only had a Camelbak and no other water source.

This whole thing doesn't make sense to me. It would be madness for her not to be carrying a day pack, again with a bladder or maybe water bottles. Maybe she was carrying one, her brain fizzled, and she dropped it somewhere off trail?

 

[Tower]

Totally. I was thinking 3L was best case scenario if they only had a Camelbak and no other water source.

This whole thing doesn't make sense to me. It would be madness for her not to be carrying a day pack, again with a bladder or maybe water bottles. Maybe she was carrying one, her brain fizzled, and she dropped it somewhere off trail?

I’ve long thought this is a likely scenario IMO, that she ditched empty bottles or her pack or both. In a heat exhaustion scenario, as she became more desperate, anything empty would be useless and quickly dumped. If she was only slightly off-trail due to confusion or even intending to come back down on a cooler day to retrieve it, it might be quite hidden from sight. It’s possible family and friends would know if her pack was missing from their house. Or the bottles alone could have been ditched if she was found with her pack. Imo

 

[GatorFL]

Totally. I was thinking 3L was best case scenario if they only had a Camelbak and no other water source.

This whole thing doesn't make sense to me. It would be madness for her not to be carrying a day pack, again with a bladder or maybe water bottles. Maybe she was carrying one, her brain fizzled, and she dropped it somewhere off trail?

It should be pretty easy to locate a pack in the treeless conditions described on the trail.

I've noticed LEO often leaves out minor details in cases like these, things that sleuthers would love to know. I am hoping they're simply forgetting to release all the evidence they've found like what belongings Ellen had with her.

 

[Seattle1]

A Family Was Found Dead on Remote California Hiking Trail. Cause of Death Remains Mystery 8/25/21

A married couple, their 1-year-old daughter, and their dog took off on a day hike in Mariposa County and never returned. Their bodies were found on a remote trail, with no signs of trauma. Officials are mystified over the cause of death — toxic gas from mines in the area and dangerous algae bloom have been considered as possibilities.

Credit: Eryn Tolentino, Matthias Gafni, Megan Cassidy andTracy Barbutes. Family photo courtesy of Steve Jeffe Read more: https://bit.ly/3DkIGOc

The ground/trail appears to be an excellent surface for footprints. Hoping LE has a good picture of their last steps and at what point their footprints show signs of distress and for what distance before they collapsed.

Shattered for the Gerrish/Chung families and friends.

 

[NSamuelle]

San Francisco Chronicle@sfchronicle

The temperature reached 109 degrees, investigators believe, when a Mariposa County family hiked along a remote trail. It was as hot as 106 when Philip Kreycik went for a jog. “Everyone is high risk when it’s so hot outside." https://trib.al/xtz2vqG




9:05 AM · Aug 29, 2021·

San Francisco Chronicle@sfchronicle

The temperature reached 109 degrees, investigators believe, when a Mariposa County family hiked along a remote trail. It was as hot as 106 when Philip Kreycik went for a jog. Are their deaths tied to climate change?

The family on a hike. The runner who never came home. Are their deaths tied to climate change? State climate scientists say with rising temperatures in California, there will only be... sfchronicle.com
5:52 AM · Aug 28, 2021

Matthias Gafni@mgafni

NEW: Mariposa rules out gunshots or other weapons, and mine exposure along trail as causes of death in mysterious passing of entire family & dog on hiking trail. Toxicology & other tests pending
Investigators have ruled out 2 causes of death in case of Mariposa family, but still have no answers The Mariposa County sheriff released updates Thursday on the baffling deaths of a former...sfchronicle.com
1:59 PM · Aug 26, 2021

Replying to
@mgafni
Sheriff provided more details about the remote hike: 8.5-mile loop, 5 of those on steep stretch w/ little-to-no shade on day where temps ranged 103-109, & mix in 2018 Ferguson Fire scar that burned off whatever cover there might have been
Investigators have ruled out 2 causes of death in case of Mariposa family, but still have no answers The Mariposa County sheriff released updates Thursday on the baffling deaths of a former...sfchronicle.com
2:25 PM · Aug 26, 2021

Replying to
@mgafni
Sheriff also waiting for results of water samples re: toxic bacteria blooms, and sent father's cell phone to FBI two days ago to try to extract data & find clues. He had been researching the hike the day before on phone app, investigators said
Investigators have ruled out 2 causes of death in case of Mariposa family, but still have no answers The Mariposa County sheriff released updates Thursday on the baffling deaths of a former...sfchronicle.com
2:31 PM · Aug 26, 2021

This notes that the father’s cell phone was sent for analysis. Other articles have similarly only mentioned his phone, and that it was in his right front pocket. I don’t think Ellen had a phone, so the theories that she separated from the family to get help or find reception don’t make sense.

And that raises another question - who goes on an 8.5M hike without a phone? Even if you don’t expect to have reception, wouldn’t you want to take pictures or have it “just in case”?

 

[Tower]

It should be pretty easy to locate a pack in the treeless conditions described on the trail.

I've noticed LEO often leaves out minor details in cases like these, things that sleuthers would love to know. I am hoping they're simply forgetting to release all the evidence they've found like what belongings Ellen had with her.

Yes, I agree, in my scenario, she would have to spend a good deal of energy (that she didn’t have) going off trail to hide her pack when there was literally no one around to find it/take it. I have been known to search at length for a very hidden cache in moonscape conditions like this, but that’s to make sure I have lifesaving water, not to ditch something.

 

[RickshawFan]

This notes that the father’s cell phone was sent for analysis. Other articles have similarly only mentioned his phone, and that it was in his right front pocket. I don’t think Ellen had a phone, so the theories that she separated from the family to get help or find reception don’t make sense.

She might have had a phone in a pack she ditched. I wonder if they found her phone in the car or at home?
It's very odd to me they didn't both have a phone.

 

[Sunny Day]

It should be pretty easy to locate a pack in the treeless conditions described on the trail.

I've noticed LEO often leaves out minor details in cases like these, things that sleuthers would love to know. I am hoping they're simply forgetting to release all the evidence they've found like what belongings Ellen had with her.

LE may be deliberately keeping some details back until they have all test results back. So many questions. Once the phone is accessed it may answer a lot of questions. Also any laptops, etc. at home may hold key info.

 

[woods]

They are closing the Hite Cove Savage Lundy area and many other areas... “due to unknown hazards found in and near the Savage Lundy Trail.” This order will be effective from August 29, 2021, through September 26, 2021.
Log In or Sign Up to View

 

[armchairagatha]

A plan to hike the whole loop here is outlandish. It doesn't match with the couple's experience level, which was very solid and which would have given them many cautionary vibes. It doesn't match their parental responsibility, and we haven't heard from anyone that they were anything but super caring parents? I really can't see them doing the loop, let alone pushing through it to the end: it just doesn't fit. IMO the only way to signal that that's what they did is to examine their "carry in/carry out", so we'd know what scale of a trip they planned and what they'd used. If there's not much, IMO there's no way they planned to go far.

Actually it is the experienced hikers that will push the limits as we saw with Kreycik. The inexperienced ones will not even attempt something like this. This couple has done Burning man, hiked in the Gobi desert and more so they were the adventurous types who liked to push the limits. I won’t be surprised if they did indeed plan to do the 8.5 mile hike that day under those heat wave conditions.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Hi All,

Been following this thread closely, but not posting much. Considering everything, I do feel that this has to be heat related. It just makes the most sense.

I found this article very interesting - Deadly Degrees: Why Heat Waves Kill So Quickly | Live Science).

Here are some highlights:

The medical term for excessive body heat is hyperthermia. The first phase is heat exhaustion, a condition marked by heavy sweat, nausea, vomiting and even fainting. The pulse races, and the skin goes clammy. Muscle cramping can be an early sign of heat exhaustion. Heat exhaustion can be reversed by moving to a cool location, loosening clothing and applying cool, wet washcloths to the body. But when people with heat exhaustion can't find relief, they can quickly advance to heat stroke. This condition happens when a person's core body temperature rises above 104 degrees F (40 degrees C).

In heat stroke, sweating stops and the skin becomes dry and flushed. The pulse is rapid. The person becomes delirious and may pass out. When trying to compensate for extreme heat, the body dilates the blood vessels in the skin in an attempt to cool the blood. To do this, the body has to constrict the blood vessels in the gut. The reduced blood flow to the gut increases the permeability between the cells that normally keep gut contents in, and toxins can leak into the blood, according to a book chapter in the textbook Wilderness Medicine (Mosby, 2011). These leaky toxins trigger a massive inflammatory response in the body, so massive that the attempt to fight off the toxins damages the body's own tissues and organs. It can be hard to tell what damage is caused directly by heat and what is caused by the secondary effects of toxins, according to Wilderness Medicine. Muscle cells break down, spilling their contents into the bloodstream and overloading the kidneys, which in turn start to fail, a condition called rhabdomyolysis. Proteins in the spleen start to clump as a direct result of heat; they're essentially cooked. The blood-brain barrier that normally keeps pathogens out of the brain becomes more permeable, allowing dangerous substances into the brain. Autopsies of people killed by heat stroke often reveal microhemorrhages (tiny strokes) and swelling, and 30 percent of heat stroke survivors experience permanent damage in brain function, according to Wilderness Medicine. Part of the insidiousness of heat-related deaths is how quickly they can happen. As many as 10 percent of people who experience heat stroke die, according to the American Association of Family Physicians (AAFP). Heat exhaustion requires immediate medical treatment and rapid cooling. In the case of a hiker on a trail, there may not be time to get to a spot that's cool enough to reverse the damage.

As per the CDC: Heat stroke occurs when the body’s temperature rises rapidly, the sweating mechanism fails, and the body is unable to cool down. When heat stroke occurs, the body temperature can rise to 106°F or higher within 10 to 15 minutes. Symptoms of heat stroke include: Confusion, altered mental status, slurred speech; Loss of consciousness (coma); Hot, dry skin or profuse sweating; Seizures; Very high body temperature. It is fatal if treatment is delayed (for more information please see: Heat Stress Related Illness | NIOSH | CDC).

Thank you, @NoSI !

Two things struck me about this info -- first is that with the various impacts to internal organs described here, I wonder why these weren't noted during autopsy, or if they were noted, somehow it didn't lead the coroner to determine heat stroke as the COD. Even if they are waiting for toxicology in order to have all info before making a declaration, it still seems very odd that they wouldn't even say "initially all indications are" heat stroke, or some similar language.

Second thing I noted was that increased body temperature seems to be both a cause and an effect in heat stroke situations. I wonder if it becomes almost a vicious circle of heat impacts, where the heat initially causes the lack of proper functioning, but also once it's going, the body temp continues to rise even if the person is in a mildly cool environment. For example, someone is out in 105F and has heat exhaustion which then becomes heat stroke. Maybe they go indoors where A/C has it at 70F and they sit and rest, but 70F may not be cool enough to stop the process, so their body temp keeps rising even though they are no longer in an extreme external environment.

ITA, I find it odd no bottles were found, either for the baby or the dog.

I don't think we actually know that no bottles were found. At least one article folks here have discussed, mentioned water samples taken from both the camelbak and water bottle(s). But lots of other articles have not mentioned bottles, so we just don't know at this point what they had. (not to mention, as some have suggested, whether bottles alone or in a daypack may have been dropped along the way and not yet found. heck, bottles may have been dropped in the river itself, in which case we are unlikely to ever know that unless they are found downstream). MOO

Gone into a mine to cool off but something toxic got them in there perhaps? JMO MOO

I've only skimmed the mine aspect of this discussion. Can someone clarify whether there are mines along the route(s) that have been focused on here? TIA

 

[wary]

Actually it is the experienced hikers that will push the limits as we saw with Kreycik. The inexperienced ones will not even attempt something like this. This couple has done Burning man, hiked in the Gobi desert and more so they were the adventurous types who liked to push the limits. I won’t be surprised if they did indeed plan to do the 8.5 mile hike that day under those heat wave conditions.

‘Experience’ can lead to disaster. I’ll confess that my first reaction to ‘hiked the Gobi desert’ was: ‘well, that explains it all.’ I have a high respect for caution,