CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

[woods]

‘Experience’ can lead to disaster. I’ll confess that my first reaction to ‘hiked the Gobi desert’ was: ‘well, that explains it all.’ I have a high respect for caution,

I saw the Gobi Desert photos on her Instagram and it looks like they were on a guided trip of some sort, or at least one other person was with them since the couple’s pictures were taken from afar.

 

[annpats]

I saw the Gobi Desert photos on her Instagram and it looks like they were on a guided trip of some sort, or at least one other person was with them since the couple’s pictures were taken from afar.

Yes, but don't forget Instagram is all about making things (and yourself) look bigger, better, more fabulous than reality.

The Gobi desert sounds mysterious and exotic, but you'd probably have to go on guided tours there. Unless you want to (or are even able to) rent an ATV in rural China.

Note that they didn't hike the Gobi desert though. That's the key. They just visited. They are not pro ultra-hikers. Just adventure tourists.

 

[rahod1]

You’re right of course. I personally had 2 things in mind in being obsessed with which route they took.

1. I thought the distance they traversed would make a difference to the theory some have proposed here of murder/suicide (which I don’t subscribe to, but wanted to be able to discount with evidence). I personally don’t think someone would hike ~7 miles (ie most of the loop) to finally die or kill someone.

2. The direction they took does, to me, help reframe some of the discussion about their preparedness, planning, parenting, etc. If they really planned only a short hike down SL & back up, that means they apparently left at a far less unreasonable time of day, & with apparently enough water, & yet something went terribly wrong. Maybe it was the dogs paws, maybe dad got a strain from the carrier, we don’t know. They seemed to be a happy & loving & health conscious family, so it’s an added sadness if we are left thinking bad things about them re their choices if it’s based on faulty information. JMO!

Agree. There's another likely possibility for me. If they hiked down Lundy Savage and planned a return on the same trail, they likely took a hike down the river as well. It was definitely more *appealing* scenic wise in contrast to the barren road to the river. That would have been significant since 1) it lengthened the trip and exposure to the heat 2) May have tempted the dog (or themselves?) to make contact with the water and/ or drink it (likely the dog). Given the algae alert, any contact with the river may have contributed to an already dangerous return trip up the hill.

 

[bpeterson912]

Yes I know all that, but what I'm saying is the way it's been presented and investigated by officials and treated by the media is beyond weird. I've never seen a heat stroke case handled like this.

I'm not sure I would say the handling of the case is beyond weird. Law enforcement appeared to make some initial assumptions that may have been off, perhaps because LE didn't appreciate how lethal (and quick) heat stroke can be. A somewhat similar dynamic emerged during the investigation of Philip Kreycik's recent disappearance. There, LE said a few unfortunate and misleading things because they appeared not to understand the likelihood and nature of heat stroke in the circumstances they were investigating.

 

[rahod1]

Snipped for focus

Another scenario:
They were going DOWN the gulch trail. He, baby, and doggie got a bit ahead. Perhaps she was looking for the dog and the dog caught up with dad, so he leashed it. Whatever. So, dad, baby, and doggie, have a sit and wait in the trail for momma. They are all facing uphill because that's where momma was coming from. He's just nicely sitting, baby set beside so dad's back could relax, doggie now leashed for safety. Maybe even momma was just over a knoll so they couldn't see that she'd collapsed or tripped and hit her head or whatever.
In this scenario, they'd be on the way DOWN, but facing uphill.

True, but I would think close inspection of shoe and dog prints could verify. In your scenario the prints would only go as far as they would have advanced down hill.

 

[mickey2942]

Yes, but don't forget Instagram is all about making things (and yourself) look bigger, better, more fabulous than reality.

The Gobi desert sounds mysterious and exotic, but you'd probably have to go on guided tours there. Unless you want to (or are even able to) rent an ATV in rural China.

Note that they didn't hike the Gobi desert though. That's the key. They just visited. They are not pro ultra-hikers. Just adventure tourists.

Do you think that type of "adventure tourism" gives people a false sense of bravado? That they can hike anywhere and achieve anything? After all, they "mastered" the Gobi desert!

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Mom might have left for help and she could have gone in circles off the trail because if you have heat stroke, it is hard to make connections in your mind even when your eyes are sending images. She could have gone quite a distance but ended up near to the family IMO

They were on switchbacks in a steep open area, the Google Earth link earlier in the thread shows this well.

 

[Seattle1]

This notes that the father’s cell phone was sent for analysis. Other articles have similarly only mentioned his phone, and that it was in his right front pocket. I don’t think Ellen had a phone, so the theories that she separated from the family to get help or find reception don’t make sense.

And that raises another question - who goes on an 8.5M hike without a phone? Even if you don’t expect to have reception, wouldn’t you want to take pictures or have it “just in case”?

There's a lot of investigation going on behind the scenes. Several search warrants are have been executed.

8/20/2021 – Search warrants issued for phone found with family

8/20/2021 – Search warrants issued for family home and cars- nothing significant located

8/23/2021 – Additional water samples collected from water sources along the trail area

8/24/2021 – Cell phone delivered to FBI for data extraction- Awaiting results

8/25/2021 – Search Warrants issued for possible social media access

^^sbm

 

[Tower]

Thank you, @NoSI !
Two things struck me about this info -- first is that with the various impacts to internal organs described here, I wonder why these weren't noted during autopsy, or if they were noted, somehow it didn't lead the coroner to determine heat stroke as the COD. Even if they are waiting for toxicology in order to have all info before making a declaration, it still seems very odd that they wouldn't even say "initially all indications are" heat stroke, or some similar language.

It’s possible that preliminary signs of heatstroke found at autopsy are being held until the final report, after the toxicology comes back.
But the deceased were found about 40-48 hours after death, imo, give or take, in very hot weather. I will not get graphic, but some signs would no longer be visible after decomposition. Jmo

 

[TailSpin]

I reviewed most of the posts and the piece of info I appear to be missing is, what is it about this case that is making law enforcement treat this so differently than other heat related deaths? Is it just that there were three people and a dog found in the same area? If you consider the infant could not survive on its own and that there are reasons why a dog would not have left the family, then it's really just a double fatalily due to heat and does not seem like something from the Twilight Zone. Is the physical evidence pointing to the death not being heat related?

 

[RickshawFan]

True, but I would think close inspection of shoe and dog prints could verify. In your scenario the prints would only go as far as they would have advanced down hill.

I'm still attached to my theory! They were going downhill, but momma got behind, and they sat down facing uphill to wait for her. Where they were is as far as they got. That's my theory.

 

[RickshawFan]

Since there were a few questions earlier about why LE didn't search more the first night they heard the couple was missing, and because we're quite stalled waiting for new info, I thought it might be useful to know some ins and out of SAR and how they operate. It's especially relevant to why LE didn't just get a whole bunch of locals.
This piece should be helpful for other missing hiker threads as well.
It's from Kent County in Michigan, but is typical IME.

Want to help with the search you see on the news? | Kent County SAR

 

[RickshawFan]

Do you think that type of "adventure tourism" gives people a false sense of bravado? That they can hike anywhere and achieve anything? After all, they "mastered" the Gobi desert!

This happened in the Matrosova case as well. People called her "experienced" because she had climbed some impressive mountains, but she'd always been with professional guides and groups.

I think the couple's Burning Man "experience" for baking hot weather activity is misleading, because there are people all around? A medic center? There wouldn't be a lot of exertion with long steep climbs while carrying a pack?
The risks are much lower at Burning Man than the trail and conditions this couple were in. AFAIK.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

I guess it would be too much to hope for a time of death, as to who succumbed first type thing. Sounds daft, I know, it is just that if there was a gap between the demise of various family members, it sure would've helped put the whole tragic event together more. But even knowing the cause would give the family answers.

I would be surprised if neither was wearing a biometric watch or ring, they have gotten so popular and commonplace. That could provide a lot of data.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

This happened in the Matrosova case as well. People called her "experienced" because she had climbed some impressive mountains, but she'd always been with professional guides and groups.

I think the couple's Burning Man "experience" for baking hot weather activity is misleading, because there are people all around? A medic center? There wouldn't be a lot of exertion with long steep climbs while carrying a pack?
The risks are much lower at Burning Man than the trail and conditions this couple were in. AFAIK.

This, same with Gobi with a tour group. False sense of security re: heat. They had had issues with heat and at altitude per her Insta on prior trips/adventures.

 

[GatorFL]

It’s possible that preliminary signs of heatstroke found at autopsy are being held until the final report, after the toxicology comes back.
But the deceased were found about 40-48 hours after death, imo, give or take, in very hot weather. I will not get graphic, but some signs would no longer be visible after decomposition. Jmo

Yeah I said that earlier in the thread. They probably all had some substantial decomp and I wonder if that hindered the ME in determining if they had died from heat stroke.

 

[rahod1]

I'm still attached to my theory! They were going downhill, but momma got behind, and they sat down facing uphill to wait for her. Where they were is as far as they got. That's my theory.

You could be right...am only saying the part of the trail (further down from where they were found) they didn't go down should be void of the same prints that show up higher up where they came down. I would think that could be *easily* verified.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Ellen had an adventure tag on Insta

Wonder if parenthood, cv and the slower pace of Mariposa was a big adjustment?

#jellonadventures hashtag on Instagram • Photos and Videos

Sometimes spending time with other new parents, in a playgroup, at Gymboree, etc can help instill new norms re: safety, saw that in a friend. It is an adjustment esp when #adventuring and documenting it has been a big part of life and identity.

 

[GatorFL]

I reviewed most of the posts and the piece of info I appear to be missing is, what is it about this case that is making law enforcement treat this so differently than other heat related deaths? Is it just that there were three people and a dog found in the same area? If you consider the infant could not survive on its own and that there are reasons why a dog would not have left the family, then it's really just a double fatalily due to heat and does not seem like something from the Twilight Zone. Is the physical evidence pointing to the death not being heat related?

LEO must have their reasons. I do think one odd thing is that the dog was dead next to them. Plus the known issues with the algae.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Do you think that type of "adventure tourism" gives people a false sense of bravado? That they can hike anywhere and achieve anything? After all, they "mastered" the Gobi desert!

Yes. Although all the people dying this summer would have been better off in a group. So sad. Crazy amounts of publicity about Kreycik, esp in CA and STILL this family then died as did the gentleman from the Bay Area hiking in Death Valley. The disconnect needs to be addressed with messaging that speaks of brain damage, death, that no level of fitness or gear makes exertion in high temps safe for humans or dogs.