GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #3

[Linda7NJ]

I know we are getting a bit O/T but wanted to respond with a more recent development in that particular case. I actually DO believe that young children can be rehabilitated. Perhaps not every case, as every case is different. I do think it should be noted that this particular boy was only 8 years old at the time and there was evidence of abuse in the home.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/regio...boy-charged-in-2008-double-murder-in-st-johns

A clinical psychologist who has been meeting with an Arizona boy sentenced on a negligent homicide charge testified Friday that he sees improvement in the boy and even offered up his own home for continued treatment.

Read more: http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/regio...-2008-double-murder-in-st-johns#ixzz2T89BSdoa

There was zero abuse in that home. And IMO that psychologist is a fool, he's been manipulated by a psychopath.


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[mysteriew]

I think LE knew he did it from the beginning but they wanted him to keep talking so they probably acted like they completely believed him in questioning, gave PC's where they talked about the intruder, etc. They probably also know about the Stephanie Crowe case so they needed to be cautious.

If she was stabbed in her bedroom....and it was said that the knives were cleaned which meant that the killer had to take the knives, walk to the nearest sink, and clean them? That was probably a huge red flag to LE.

ETA: Another thing is....The media seemed to be extremely pro-intruder theory. There wasn't even any "alleged intruder" in any of the articles. I wonder if LE asked them to "promote" the intruder theory as hard as they could because they didn't want the brother to stop talking? Or it could have just been that he's a minor so the media had to be extremely careful to not point the finger at him.

I don't think they knew right away. There was a massive (costly) search, the schools locked down, the community in fear. But I do think they began to have strong suspicions early on. About the time they went back to the home and got the knives.

And yeah they still checked sex offenders, they did DNA on the other suspect and looked at the couple murder (or at least used the inquiry call from the other PD) but that IMO was to "rule them out." It also helps when the defense attorney tries to say that LE didn't look for anyone else other than their client or tries to use the others for reasonable doubt.

 

[np2012]

Can anyone post a link to the photos of the vigil with the boy in them, please. I haven't seen any of them.

 

[tlcya]

http://cache.comcorpusa.com/440/0/crop/fox44/media/news/S021521097.1367327459.jpg

I wanted to say I apologize if my postulating seemed like diagnosing. I agree there have been some loose conversation regarding there being something psychologically wrong with him. But I think in cases like this, especially involving children, people tend to retrospectively or prospectively label to find some kind of rationale for this awful crime. I read and have watched everything about Adam Lana because I want to know why. My husband told me in the beginning I was getting obsessed with it because I was so upset and needed to know some reason, any reason. I think that is what is going on here an no one has meant to offend anyone just trying to find a reason why.
I quoted the picture of the family because there have been discussions of the boy's lack of smiling. I assume he is the one in the hat with the dark brows. He looks like an awkward adolescent but certainly does not have the "crazy eyes" like Lanza. I suspect there are a lot of preadolescent boys who do not smile in family pics. Hard to say because after knowing what he did it is hard to look at him objectively.
Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2[/QUOTE]

I agree, I too am one of those who wants to understand the whys of it. The hows of it. But I am very conscious of how quickly things went off the rails on the Jessica Ridgeway thread in regards to people postulating that he may have everything from ASPD to Aspergers and the conversation offended some.

So I can see the reason for mods wanting us to discuss but not get too indepth with our own ideas of what we think the problem is. We are not professionals so I get it.

 

[vasportsmom]

This outcome shocks me in a way that little else has. I feared this from the start but I have a 12 year old boy (nearly 13) and B cried for days over a hamster dying, I can't imagine a child his age stabbing anyone, most less a baby sister, over TWENTY times! Something broke or went terribly wrong with this child and I can only hope that it wasn't because he was failed miserably by the adults in his life.

RIP beautiful Leila. I can't imagine the terror you experienced in your last moments but I hope you are at peace now.

 

[mysteriew]

I think we all agree that someone stabbing someone else 21 times would have blood all over him. I think we can also agree that if he was covered with blood, OR his bloody clothes were discovered early on, LE would not hesitate to have arrested him immediately, regardless of his age, as this is MURDER, and public safety is always at risk when a murderer is free, even if he is 12. I personally believe, in retrospect, that LE suspected him from the beginning, but needed evidence or a confession to get an arrest warrant. Therefore, I have to deduce that he cleaned up well to some degree, via a shower and ditched his clothes- then, when he was ready, called his parents with the phony story, who then called 911 (or someone called 911).
Given these facts, and the fact that LF was alive upon arrival at the hospital, I am CHILLED that she lay dying for a period of time unknown to us, but seemingly more than 10-15min or so. Poor, poor angel... There is something missing in that boy's soul. JMO, but when people have that "something" missing, I don't believe any amount of counseling or medication will replace it.

BBM

To me the saddest part is that if he had called 911 right after, she likely would have lived. She hung on while he cleaned up, while they waited for parents and LE to show up, and while waiting for EMT's. If he had called 911 she may have lived.

 

[katydid23]

I don't understand where people are not paying attention to what kind of drugs are out there and that he could have been given.
There are heinous sprees that even adults go on because of same. To me-this could be a mitigating factor.
12 years old- a good-looking boy-who knows who gave him what when.
I would be looking into that aspect.

There are plenty of 18 year olds in prison for life because of drugs, peer pressure, anger, lax rules growing up , emotional reactive stances in various situations, etc.

We really don't know a lot about his life-but if the posturing of certain family members online demonstrate, frustration and anger may have influenced him.

Hindsight............

it doesn't change the fact he is charged or may be guilty. No telling what precipitated this incident.

I am assuming that LE gave him a drug and alcohol test as a routine matter during their investigation. I have no proof, but I think they would have done so. Especially because they probably had some suspicions from the get-go.

Also, didn't we read somewhere that they gave him a polygraph? Does anyone remember that?

 

[TheDuchess]

http://cache.comcorpusa.com/440/0/crop/fox44/media/news/S021521097.1367327459.jpg

I wanted to say I apologize if my postulating seemed like diagnosing. I agree there have been some loose conversation regarding there being something psychologically wrong with him. But I think in cases like this, especially involving children, people tend to retrospectively or prospectively label to find some kind of rationale for this awful crime. I read and have watched everything about Adam Lana because I want to know why. My husband told me in the beginning I was getting obsessed with it because I was so upset and needed to know some reason, any reason. I think that is what is going on here an no one has meant to offend anyone just trying to find a reason why.
I quoted the picture of the family because there have been discussions of the boy's lack of smiling. I assume he is the one in the hat with the dark brows. He looks like an awkward adolescent but certainly does not have the "crazy eyes" like Lanza. I suspect there are a lot of preadolescent boys who do not smile in family pics. Hard to say because after knowing what he did it is hard to look at him objectively.
Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2[/QUOTE]

My 12 year old son is the wackiest, silliest, goofiest person I know and when he goes to take a picture, he turns on his "serious tough guy face." If you didn't know him, you might take him as "mean" in some of the photos. :twocents:

Also, I think the "crazy eyes" thing you are talking about is really interesting, because it was definitely apparent in Adam Lanza as well as John Holmes, Charles Manson and Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate Hale Bop Cult) all appear to have this condition often times referred to as Sanpaku eyes.

Sanpaku - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FWIW-I do not see this condition in the brother.

 

[TheDuchess]

BBM

To me the saddest part is that if he had called 911 right after, she likely would have lived. She hung on while he cleaned up, while they waited for parents and LE to show up, and while waiting for EMT's. If he had called 911 she may have lived.

We actually don't know. They may have simply proceeded with any kind of resuscitation techniques based upon the information they were given at the time, i.e. that the attack had happened say 15 minutes prior, rather than say 90 minutes prior. It may have become immediately apparent to the attending physician at the ER that the child was definitely DOA, as there was a very quick pronouncement of death upon arrival. Just a suggestion.

 

[TheDuchess]

There was zero abuse in that home. And IMO that psychologist is a fool, he's been manipulated by a psychopath.


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I read all of the reports and the child specifically stated during his confession that there was abuse in the home and that abuse was the reason for the murders. So what part of his confession should one believe more?

I don't want to get into that case call over again, but followed it quite closely at the time. The child had a very awkward family dynamic at the time and a very strange living environment. There was also a bio mom in the picture that wasn't really around much-I won't get into her at this time other than to say that this particular child never had much of an adult support system before, during or after the fact.

I hope that this case is different. They seem like a very close family and I hope they don't turn their back on this boy. First, we do not know all of the facts yet. Second, he is still a minor and will thus be prosecuted as one. He WILL get out by the time he is 25-that is a fact. So the only chance we will have in this situation is for someone to follow him and watch him and do everything in their power to get him the help he needs desperately while they still can. I pray that they can make this work so that when he IS sent out into the real world again, he just might have a chance at being a peaceful member of society and won't hurt anyone else.

 

[menmo]

I wonder if the dad and step mom had IF stay home to watch his little sister while they were at the ballpark? Was he being punished for something and did he feel left out a lot of times?
I think even though he might/probably loved his sister he may have perceived her getting more positive attention, along with all the other kids, and there is quite a few them. Did he feel lost and all alone? I'm really not sure that he was angry with his sister, but maybe angry at someone else, maybe for some time and acted out accordingly.
The biological parents not having a cordial relationship could have contributed to all that anger I think he has inside. So could many other things. I am left wondering if he was abused and if so, how. I'm actually left wondering a lot of things about his childhood.
I know he is accused of doing a horrible thing but I cannot get past the fact that he is twelve years old. Yes, he needs punished but saying to basically throw him away by putting him in with the adults in a prison setting is a bit much. Again, he's twelve. Every life is worth something.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

I wonder if the dad and step mom had IF stay home to watch his little sister while they were at the ballpark? Was he being punished for something and did he feel left out a lot of times?
I think even though he might/probably loved his sister he may have perceived her getting more positive attention, along with all the other kids, and there is quite a few them. Did he feel lost and all alone? I'm really not sure that he was angry with his sister, but maybe angry at someone else, maybe for some time and acted out accordingly.
The biological parents not having a cordial relationship could have contributed to all that anger I think he has inside. So could many other things. I am left wondering if he was abused and if so, how. I'm actually left wondering a lot of things about his childhood.
I know he is accused of doing a horrible thing but I cannot get past the fact that he is twelve years old. Yes, he needs punished but saying to basically throw him away by putting him in with the adults in a prison setting is a bit much. Again, he's twelve. Every life is worth something.

MOO

I have to wonder about his feelings about his Mother, Priscilla. Was he missing her, or angry with her, maybe feeling abandoned? Or did he harbor anger at Dad for keeping her away? 12 yr olds are still just boys, and they usually LOVE their Mommys and would miss them if kept apart from them, imo.

 

[dinaslala]

True, she said that. But, she may not have any more specific facts than we have.

She was..and yes, she does...things are unfolding quickly..I think I need to step back from this.. my apologies...Im waiting on the call to be verified so when I am, even though I may not come back, you will still be able to see that I was....

 

[blue22]

I wonder if the dad and step mom had IF stay home to watch his little sister while they were at the ballpark? Was he being punished for something and did he feel left out a lot of times?
I think even though he might/probably loved his sister he may have perceived her getting more positive attention, along with all the other kids, and there is quite a few them. Did he feel lost and all alone? I'm really not sure that he was angry with his sister, but maybe angry at someone else, maybe for some time and acted out accordingly.
The biological parents not having a cordial relationship could have contributed to all that anger I think he has inside. So could many other things. I am left wondering if he was abused and if so, how. I'm actually left wondering a lot of things about his childhood.
I know he is accused of doing a horrible thing but I cannot get past the fact that he is twelve years old. Yes, he needs punished but saying to basically throw him away by putting him in with the adults in a prison setting is a bit much. Again, he's twelve. Every life is worth something.

MOO

I think the very difficult question we have to ask, is every life worth putting back in the public? Is one life (perhaps, a very mentally ill life...we don't know yet) worth putting many lives at risk? He will get out some day, and I hope he will be very monitored. I can't really imagine that someone who will violently stab a sibling 21 times, can ever be though of as not a risk.

 

[cluciano63]

The viciousness of the murder points to extreme anger and/or hatred, whether he was overreacting to something stupid or felt he had a "good reason". My husband told me today that when he was about this boy's age, he pulled his little sister's hair pretty hard for changing the channel away from the baseball game after he warned her not to. That, IMO, is a more "normal" response between siblings (at least back then.) But everything is so much more extreme and violent today, that this crime is not even as shocking as it should be in some ways. Kids shoot other kids to get into gangs, girls like Skylar's "friends" stab her to death for some petty jealousy, etc. and on and on.

 

[Melanie]

Iirc he not only stabbed her, he stabbed her in the face.

Mothers....never want to believe the worst.


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This is absolutely devastating. I wonder if there were any signs of violence before this happened. It's hard to imagine a 12 year old stabbing a sibling out of the blue.

Mel

 

[believe09]

Respectfully, this is a hormone raging 12 year old. His brain is barely fully formed enough to tell the difference between a video game and real life. He probably gave up on Santa just a year or two ago. He is a child. I guess I would completely expect overkill in a child because something very powerful was driving him-dont tell me you havent had a tween go off a cliff on you? There was no an adult present and who knows if he was on any kind of stimulant for any reason.

He may be very broken or he may be an impulsive tween who made a choice he cant take back. There is a lot more info that needs to come out before I am convinced he is a lost cause. Kids kill kids, absolutely. It remains to be seen if he was hard wired this way.

 

[dinaslala]

I have to wonder about his feelings about his Mother, Priscilla. Was he missing her, or angry with her, maybe feeling abandoned? Or did he harbor anger at Dad for keeping her away? 12 yr olds are still just boys, and they usually LOVE their Mommys and would miss them if kept apart from them, imo.

She held him (at the vigil) and I saw him close his eyes and lean into her...I can't confirm about anger or resentment with either of them.. I guess it depends on who you ask and in which camp they're in....

 

[Melanie]

This outcome shocks me in a way that little else has. I feared this from the start but I have a 12 year old boy (nearly 13) and B cried for days over a hamster dying, I can't imagine a child his age stabbing anyone, most less a baby sister, over TWENTY times! Something broke or went terribly wrong with this child and I can only hope that it wasn't because he was failed miserably by the adults in his life.

RIP beautiful Leila. I can't imagine the terror you experienced in your last moments but I hope you are at peace now.

That's another good question. How much empathy did he have. My now (almost 16) DS had hamsters too, and cried as well when they died. We also have 2 cats, and when we took one to the vet, he was inconsolable (she came out fine). While I do see the normal teen angst, I see lots of love for animals and others. He's yet to even storm into his room and slam the door (which I did when I was that age).

I guess my point is, you can learn a lot about a child by the amount of empathy they have for animals/people.

MOO

Mel

 

[cluciano63]

That's another good question. How much empathy did he have. My now (almost 16) DS had hamsters too, and cried as well when they died. We also have 2 cats, and when we took one to the vet, he was inconsolable (she came out fine). While I do see the normal teen angst, I see lots of love for animals and others. He's yet to even storm into his room and slam the door (which I did when I was that age).

I guess my point is, you can learn a lot about a child by the amount of empathy they have for animals/people.

MOO

Mel

My brother, who is mentally ill, has extreme empathy for animals and almost none for humans. So that can be scary too.